thought on diversity in fiction

[marvelguy25]

i like to give out my thoughts on diversity and how people react to them . eversince spidey was getting a reboot alot of people were suggesting either a black peter or miles morales as their only options and i asked why? they tthink that a black peter should attract audiance when clearly that wouldn't be the case as there would be alot of story potential to peter which fanfic writers thought of better than just making a character black. they even suggested miles to replace peter overall like not just movies but in tv shows. with how far people have taken diversity Miles has become my character i have a love/ hate relationship for. another issue we had is the Iceman coming out as gay storyline which just came out of nowhere. no hint nor any signs of buildup that he was one. just him being gay out of nowhere. alot of people i found on forums were upset about this not because of how it was handled but because of our complaints. no matter how hard we tried to explain ourselves they found it offensive with some people saying it's "realistic", it's "meaningful", etc. even though it's not. then there was the whole Iron ist being white instead of asian rants like they really don't know nor remember that the character has always been white. then there are alot of petitions into giving elsa from Frozen a girlfriend and that givesteverogersaboyfriend(with buckey) and with that one whenever me and everyone else tried to rant about this alot of people got offended no matter how hard we explained ourselves . whenever we have a problem with diversity and how it is handled even how it's ridiculous how people complain about it and how they talk about changing it they really think it's because we've racist and prejudice even though we're obviously not. we're just tired of having the characters changed in the most drastic ways as possible like killing off a character for another character and having that character's entire history and background changed. they use racism as an excuse to overpower us no matter how hard we tried to explain. so i ask you people, are you tired of how diversity is handled and how people respond to you like they're "offended" ? what are your thoughts on diversity in fiction and how it's handled and should be handled?

[codystarbuck]

Diversity in entertainment is a good thing. The more people that can identify with characters and their story, the more successful it will be. That doesn't mean they have to be of the same group, just be relatable. Putting characters in to be token characters is insulting. Putting in minority characters that bring something to the story is good. The problem is that conglomerates tend to approach things in a ham-fisted way, obsessive fans (like a large chunk of the comics world) fear change, and people who want change want it now, rather than accept that it takes time and effort. It's always better to create original characters and make them as relatable as possible, even if they don't represent your identity. The key is emphasizing the universal.

[Angilasman]

Diversity is good, not just for social reasons, but for the quality of stories. The more different points of view being contributed means more good ideas. Two of my favorite American comic books are Usagi Yojimbo (by Japanese American Stan Sakai) and Love & Rockets (by Mexican American brothers Jaime and Gilbert Hernandez). The fact that they have their respective heritage is a huge part of what makes those comics so great.

[marvelguy25]

Diversity in entertainment is a good thing. The more people that can identify with characters and their story, the more successful it will be. That doesn't mean they have to be of the same group, just be relatable. Putting characters in to be token characters is insulting. Putting in minority characters that bring something to the story is good. The problem is that conglomerates tend to approach things in a ham-fisted way, obsessive fans (like a large chunk of the comics world) fear change, and people who want change want it now, rather than accept that it takes time and effort. It's always better to create original characters and make them as relatable as possible, even if they don't represent your identity. The key is emphasizing the universal.

i agree. i like stories to be honest about the representation of the characters and their world. but not handling them correctly like changing or replacing them isn't really helping. if you want to change a character for diversity's sake do it in a new universe like say make The Thing african american to deepen the theme of Family in the Fantastic Four. or just make either Kitty Pryde, Anne Marie, and Carol Danvers gay/lesbian/bisexual to fit their characters.

[marvelguy25]

Diversity is good, not just for social reasons, but for the quality of stories. The more different points of view being contributed means more good ideas. Two of my favorite American comic books are Usagi Yojimbo (by Japanese American Stan Sakai) and Love & Rockets (by Mexican American brothers Jaime and Gilbert Hernandez). The fact that they have their respective heritage is a huge part of what makes those comics so great.

the more insulting thig is that people think that just because you're a straight white male means you know nothing on diversity which is bs and unfair because writers even ones who don't work for the industry especially those who are young try to learn about diversities and cultures and told them in a believable way. you try to study them like an FBI Agent. and people think/believe that being a straight white male means you are incompetent of understanding other people's culture and feelings.

[Bor]

the more insulting thig is that people think that just because you're a straight white male means you know nothing on diversity which is bs and unfair because writers even ones who don't work for the industry especially those who are young try to learn about diversities and cultures and told them in a believable way. you try to study them like an FBI Agent. and people think/believe that being a straight white male means you are incompetent of understanding other people's culture and feelings.

Is this all because people tolled you in that other thread that as a straight white male you can never understand completely what it is like to be a different race/ sexuality? Because they are right. Most people never say, including those in the other thread, that you know NOTHING about diversity if you are white straight male but just that you can never fully understand it unless you actually lived it. That is true. Just like they will never completely know what it is like to be a straight white male. Frankly I think that disregarding this view point is a lot more insulting then anything people have said in other posts here. And you really cant "study someone like a FBI Agent" unless you actually have training in that.

[marvelguy25]

Is this all because people tolled you in that other thread that as a straight white male you can never understand completely what it is like to be a different race/ sexuality? Because they are right. Most people never say, including those in the other thread, that you know NOTHING about diversity if you are white straight male but just that you can never fully understand it unless you actually lived it. That is true. Just like they will never completely know what it is like to be a straight white male. Frankly I think that disregarding this view point is a lot more insulting then anything people have said in other posts here. And you really cant "study someone like a FBI Agent" unless you actually have training in that.

they know nothing about common sense tbh. a straight male male can understand and can be able to fully understand if they try hard enough the same way anyone in a different diversity could. saying that just sounds pretty ignorant tbh. infact these are the same people who think Iron Fist being white is an insult to Western Culture despite the character always being white and has more of a story for it, complaining about quicksilver being in DOFP instead of Northstar for some reason, and thinking us complaining about Fury Jr. is racist even though it isn't and never was. everything they are trying to say for the most part is honestly ridiculous trying to twist our thoughts and manipulate us into being the bad guys.

[Bor]

they know nothing about common sense tbh. a straight male male can understand and can be able to fully understand if they try hard enough the same way anyone in a different diversity could. saying that just sounds pretty ignorant tbh. infact these are the same people who think Iron Fist being white is an insult to Western Culture despite the character always being white and has more of a story for it, complaining about quicksilver being in DOFP instead of Northstar for some reason, and thinking us complaining about Fury Jr. is racist even though it isn't and never was. everything they are trying to say for the most part is honestly ridiculous trying to twist our thoughts and manipulate us into being the bad guys.

Like our disagreement on Maguire Vs Garfield I think we will just have to disagree here. There is a HUGE difference between having an idea of what it is like to be of a different sexuality etc and then actually complete understanding of what it is like, and to deny that I think is either hugely ingnorant of some people or shows signs of extreme cluelessness. As for the last part of the quote I think you seeing an army of enemies where only a couple actually exist.

[Quiver]

a straight male male can understand and can be able to fully understand if they try hard enough the same way anyone in a different diversity could..

There is a difference - a BIG, and IMPORTNT - difference between being able to understand something, and being able to fully understand the consequences of it.

As a cis, straight male, can I understand someone who is trans, or gay, or black, or female? Yes, because I am a person who has empathy for other people, so I'd like to think that just because someone is different from me in some way doesn't mean we are incomprehensible to one another.

...But, each of those different life experiences causes different things. I'm straight; I've never had to campaign to be given the right to marry someone I like just because we're the same sex. I'm cis; I've never had to deal with the disorienting feeling of "my body is wrong", or had to struggle with people refusing to accept me for who I know I am, rather than who they percieve me to be; I'm male, so a lot of the issues that women face regarding sexual harrassment don't apply to me (or apply in different ways); I'm white, and honestly, I shouldn't have to point out the influence that race can make on a person.

Can I understand someone who has those experiences? Yes. I can ask questions to non cis friends, I can read tumblrs about people who struggle with abuse, I can check online forums to see how people deal with transitioning.
However, I do not live with the life experiences those people have. I have to do the research; anything less than that is disrespectful in the extreme. And I do feel that cis white guys can write characters of different backgrounds; visibility is important, and one shouldn't have to be a part of a certain social group in order to show that.

But that's why there needs to be more diversity within creators, as well as within properties. The experiences -and thus perspective perspective of an Africa-American transwoman will be different from those of a cis, straght male, and those experiences will impact what they write.

[marvelguy25]

Like our disagreement on Maguire Vs Garfield I think we will just have to disagree here. There is a HUGE difference between having an idea of what it is like to be of a different sexuality etc and then actually complete understanding of what it is like, and to deny that I think is either hugely ingnorant of some people or shows signs of extreme cluelessness. As for the last part of the quote I think you seeing an army of enemies where only a couple actually exist.

not really much partly. sometimes yes having an idea is different but most of the time, honestly, the guesses or understandings are are all right after years of observing and experience. most of the time people have that "gift" as you so say or think. to say that a straight white male can't fully understand them is actually ignorant. people have such gifts and can be capable of understanding. it's not really impossible. and the difference between diversity and maguire is that maguire was just characterized by several types of caricatures while diversities are just filled with debates on experience and observations.

[marvelguy25]

There is a difference - a BIG, and IMPORTNT - difference between being able to understand something, and being able to fully understand the consequences of it.

As a cis, straight male, can I understand someone who is trans, or gay, or black, or female? Yes, because I am a person who has empathy for other people, so I'd like to think that just because someone is different from me in some way doesn't mean we are incomprehensible to one another.

...But, each of those different life experiences causes different things. I'm straight; I've never had to campaign to be given the right to marry someone I like just because we're the same sex. I'm cis; I've never had to deal with the disorienting feeling of "my body is wrong", or had to struggle with people refusing to accept me for who I know I am, rather than who they percieve me to be; I'm male, so a lot of the issues that women face regarding sexual harrassment don't apply to me (or apply in different ways); I'm white, and honestly, I shouldn't have to point out the influence that race can make on a person.

Can I understand someone who has those experiences? Yes. I can ask questions to non cis friends, I can read tumblrs about people who struggle with abuse, I can check online forums to see how people deal with transitioning.
However, I do not live with the life experiences those people have. I have to do the research; anything less than that is disrespectful in the extreme. And I do feel that cis white guys can write characters of different backgrounds; visibility is important, and one shouldn't have to be a part of a certain social group in order to show that.

But that's why there needs to be more diversity within creators, as well as within properties. The experiences -and thus perspective perspective of an Africa-American transwoman will be different from those of a cis, straght male, and those experiences will impact what they write.

bravo. that's exactly what i also was thinking. yes, a person can understand through experience and research understanding those experiences. and yes it takes alot of effort to learn to fully understand them. what i'm upset is that with how far people take diversity and their attitudes towards people it really kinda got me and anyone else offended especially with people saying that a person is incapable of fully understanding them. as a creator and writer and also a human being it really offended me tbh. because that just shouts out ignorance and smugness. i mean as writers we took years and years of understanding the culture and other parts of the world because we're ambitious and peole actually think we're incapable of things. they think a man can't fully understand a woman or a teenager or someone who is 21 or a little bit older like 23 can't fully understand a person in their 40s or 50s or a white male not understanding a black male. which infact are all bs for the most part. if they want more diverse creators especially ones they want to fully understand then i'm all for it. but saying that a straight white male can't especially with this day and age of people taking diversity too far is honestly insulting to me.

[Bor]

not really much partly. sometimes yes having an idea is different but most of the time, honestly, the guesses or understandings are are all right after years of observing and experience. most of the time people have that "gift" as you so say or think. to say that a straight white male can't fully understand them is actually ignorant. people have such gifts and can be capable of understanding. it's not really impossible. and the difference between diversity and maguire is that maguire was just characterized by several types of caricatures while diversities are just filled with debates on experience and observations.

I am going to say this final thing and then I think I am done with this conversation. In the other thread people said what they said because they felled like you disregarded their life experience by diminishing there experience, opinions and feelings by your frankly slightly arrogant view that you can completely understand their life without actually having lived it. When you do that you disregard their experience, and the fact you seem to have such a problem understanding that is beyond me. As for the "gift" part I really dont know what you are talking about here? While some do have a better understanding of others the way you say it you make it sound like it is something anyone can do or learn. It really isnt. Not everyone is FBI material for a reason.

As for the Spider-man thing I have perfectly fine with discussing it on that board or though PM but let us save that for know.

[Bor]

bravo. that's exactly what i also was thinking. yes, a person can understand through experience and research understanding those experiences. and yes it takes alot of effort to learn to fully understand them. what i'm upset is that with how far people take diversity and their attitudes towards people it really kinda got me and anyone else offended especially with people saying that a person is incapable of fully understanding them. as a creator and writer and also a human being it really offended me tbh. because that just shouts out ignorance and smugness. i mean as writers we took years and years of understanding the culture and other parts of the world because we're ambitious and peole actually think we're incapable of things. they think a man can't fully understand a woman or a teenager or someone who is 21 or a little bit older like 23 can't fully understand a person in their 40s or 50s or a white male not understanding a black male. which infact are all bs for the most part. if they want more diverse creators especially ones they want to fully understand then i'm all for it. but saying that a straight white male can't especially with this day and age of people taking diversity too far is honestly insulting to me.

Okay then not quite done then.
Why bravo? You do understand that a lot of that post actually goes against your claims right? He actively points out what others said in the other thread is true and you disagreed with them? They said they there is a difference between understanding and completely understanding...

[marvelguy25]

I am going to say this final thing and then I think I am done with this conversation. In the other thread people said what they said because they felled like you disregarded their life experience by diminishing there experience, opinions and feelings by your frankly slightly arrogant view that you can completely understand their life without actually having lived it. When you do that you disregard their experience, and the fact you seem to have such a problem understanding that is beyond me. As for the "gift" part I really dont know what you are talking about here? While some do have a better understanding of others the way you say it you make it sound like it is something anyone can do or learn. It really isnt. Not everyone is FBI material for a reason.

As for the Spider-man thing I have perfectly fine with discussing it on that board or though PM but let us save that for know.

well i didn't mean to diminish their life experience or feelings. i'm just telling them how it is. i don't think it's neccessary to make the entire half of the already established characters gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender and change their race just to prove a point nor make it any better. people think other people from other diversities have no choice for liking these characters when that's really not the case. i used the term "gift" as a way for anyone to feel proud(think of it as arrogant all you want. it really isn't) about how far they understand things and the way they use this knowledge to help understand others and themselves on mostly just work. of course not everyone is FBI material. i'm just saying that it's not impossible to fully understand a person.

[marvelguy25]

Okay then not quite done then.
Why bravo? You do understand that a lot of that post actually goes against your claims right? He actively points out what others said in the other thread is true and you disagreed with them? They said they there is a difference between understanding and completely understanding...

because it's honestly something i can relate to and reminded after the headaches of overthinking things about diversities and life which caused me to almost drop most half of my understandings and intelligence tbh. i believe what he said sounded a bit different than what you said. then again, i haven't really been under the weather lately.