thought on diversity in fiction

[Bor]

well i didn't mean to diminish their life experience or feelings. i'm just telling them how it is. i don't think it's neccessary to make the entire half of the already established characters gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender and change their race just to prove a point nor make it any better. people think other people from other diversities have no choice for liking these characters when that's really not the case. i used the term "gift" as a way for anyone to feel proud(think of it as arrogant all you want. it really isn't) about how far they understand things and the way they use this knowledge to help understand others and themselves on mostly just work. of course not everyone is FBI material. i'm just saying that it's not impossible to fully understand a person.

I think you really need to go back and what was actually said in that thread and what I said. I never said that it was arrogant if you actually have a gift, I said it was arrogant to make it seem like it is so common like you did in that thread. And since many felt the same way and you seem to not understand that does atleast suggest to me that understanding others really is not that easy as you make it seem. As far as the whole "change thing" that was never something I talked about nor commented on here so there is really no reason for you to mention that. As for the other post: He made it clear that he thougth there was a difference between understanding and completely understanding someone, which was my point and others in the other thread. And since the percent of comic writers/ other fiction who actually have that FBI training and experience is very small, unless people like Dan slott has a background I dont know about, it really has great effect.

But I will let you continue with the thread, I think I derailed it a little to much. Your last sentence I am not actually sure on what you mean when you say you "haven´t really been been under the weather lately"? If you mean you have been under the weather then I hope you feel better soon.

[marvelguy25]

I think you really need to go back and what was actually said in that thread and what I said. I never said that it was arrogant if you actually have a gift, I said it was arrogant to make it seem like it is so common like you did in that thread. And since many felt the same way and you seem to not understand that does atleast suggest to me that understanding others really is not that easy as you make it seem. As far as the whole "change thing" that was never something I talked about nor commented on here so there is really no reason for you to mention that. As for the other post: He made it clear that he thougth there was a difference between understanding and completely understanding someone, which was my point and others in the other thread. And since the percent of comic writers/ other fiction who actually have that FBI training and experience is very small, unless people like Dan slott has a background I dont know about, it really has great effect.

But I will let you continue with the thread, I think I derailed it a little to much. Your last sentence I am not actually sure on what you mean when you say you "haven´t really been been under the weather lately"? If you mean you have been under the weather then I hope you feel better soon.

yeah, sorry. just trying to make my point across. hopeful that you would understand where i'm getting at. changes thing well that was my whole point in the talk about diversity. like imagine if in a new universe like a reboot of the universe like Ultimate or DC's multiple reboots they decided to make Steve Rogers a woman and people would aim at us as being sexist as a representation of feminisimlearly isn't trying to make us feel even more awkward and trying to make us feel bad. it's really the same ridiculous idea of giving cap a boyfriend or making peter black or making Iron Fist Asian. it's really crazily ridiculous. as for my status i'm feeling better or at least trying to feel better. well, that's what happens when you overthink too much. especially a paranoia of trying to twist the knowledge and understanding that you have.

[Bor]

yeah, sorry. just trying to make my point across. hopeful that you would understand where i'm getting at. changes thing well that was my whole point in the talk about diversity. like imagine if in a new universe like a reboot of the universe like Ultimate or DC's multiple reboots they decided to make Steve Rogers a woman and people would aim at us as being sexist as a representation of feminisimlearly isn't trying to make us feel even more awkward and trying to make us feel bad. it's really the same ridiculous idea of giving cap a boyfriend or making peter black or making Iron Fist Asian. it's really crazily ridiculous. as for my status i'm feeling better or at least trying to feel better. well, that's what happens when you overthink too much. especially a paranoia of trying to twist the knowledge and understanding that you have.

I think I understand you, even if I dont completely agree. If there was a reboot of some sort I dont think it is ridiculous for people to hope for more diversity/reprensatation. For the record, I am white, straight and male but when Ultimate Coloussus turned out to be gay I thought it was cool and I was completely fine with it. The same thing with the Wasp being asian in that universe to. If Peter had been black or gay I would have felt the same. Yeah if Peter Parker from 616 was suddenly black tomorrow I think it would be silly. If they rebooted the whole universe then I would be fine if they changed him to. The only problem I would have would be if the change went completely against the character like turning Steve Rodgers black with the same background. I could never buy the American government making a black man the symbol of the country in the 1940s. If they did it like they did with Isaiah Bradley then sure yeah I could buy it.

[marvelguy25]

I think I understand you, even if I dont completely agree. If there was a reboot of some sort I dont think it is ridiculous for people to hope for more diversity/reprensatation. For the record, I am white, straight and male but when Ultimate Coloussus turned out to be gay I thought it was cool and I was completely fine with it. The same thing with the Wasp being asian in that universe to. If Peter had been black or gay I would have felt the same. Yeah if Peter Parker from 616 was suddenly black tomorrow I think it would be silly. If they rebooted the whole universe then I would be fine if they changed him to. The only problem I would have would be if the change went completely against the character like turning Steve Rodgers black with the same background. I could never buy the American government making a black man the symbol of the country in the 1940s. If they did it like they did with Isaiah Bradley then sure yeah I could buy it.

i wouldn't be okay with peter turning black nor would i ever be okay with him being gay in any universe. bisexual or bicurious to you guys is fine but gay? no. i'd rather make either Spider-Gwen or his son gay or bisexual than peter. as for Cap, exactly what i was thinking. it also made no sense as to why Fury's dad was in the war with Cap in EMH.

[Bor]

i wouldn't be okay with peter turning black nor would i ever be okay with him being gay in any universe. bisexual or bicurious to you guys is fine but gay? no. i'd rather make either Spider-Gwen or his son gay or bisexual than peter. as for Cap, exactly what i was thinking. it also made no sense as to why Fury's dad was in the war with Cap in EMH.

See that is what I dont understand. You dont think it is hard to understand other sexualities etc but you dont what to have the character you read to be it even in a different universe? Why? Have you read ultimate spider-man? If yes would you have refused to read it if he had been gay? Because that I do think is a problem if you would have solely because of that. Not wanting to have the main character that has existed for 50+ years change without reason I can understand, even if I dont agree, but the alternative universe? Why? Because that I do think could indicate some problems with accepting different things. As for the EMH example I cant comment on it since I havent seen it.

[marvelguy25]

See that is what I dont understand. You dont think it is hard to understand other sexualities etc but you dont what to have the character you read to be it even in a different universe? Why? Have you read ultimate spider-man? If yes would you have refused to read it if he had been gay? Because that I do think is a problem if you would have solely because of that. Not wanting to have the main character that has existed for 50+ years change without reason I can understand, even if I dont agree, but the alternative universe? Why? Because that I do think could indicate some problems with accepting different things. As for the EMH example I cant comment on it since I havent seen it.

well no. even if a different universe you really don't need him to be gay. just bicurious if you want. Peter has had some numerous relationship with other women even deep and meaningful ones. genderbending them to make sure peter is gay or just be close friends with them just kinda ruins the whole relationship peter has with them. it's really not the same with Colossus. Peter is like the main everyman. like one of the main protagonists in the Marvel Universe. making him just gay only ruins the whole everyman vibe he's had.

[Bor]

well no. even if a different universe you really don't need him to be gay. just bicurious if you want. Peter has had some numerous relationship with other women even deep and meaningful ones. genderbending them to make sure peter is gay or just be close friends with them just kinda ruins the whole relationship peter has with them. it's really not the same with Colossus. Peter is like the main everyman. like one of the main protagonists in the Marvel Universe. making him just gay only ruins the whole everyman vibe he's had.

Okay any good will you had with me pretty much disapered here.
1. Do you NEED him to be gay in a different universe? No but the real question is why you have such a problem with even one version of him being that. There are 100s of alternative versions of him and you cant even accept one being gay? And who says there has to be genderbending? Maybe He just falls for someone like flash or GASP someone new.
2. "It ruins their close friendship".... I wont even comment on that one.
3. So he cant be a everyman if he is gay and it ruins him? Okay then so there exists no gay everymen in real life I guess?

This reminds me of people who says "I have nothing against gay people as long as they stay away from me". Well then you do clearly have something against them. I am not saying you hate them or anything if this is your attitude, but there is something there.

[marvelguy25]

Okay any good will you had with me pretty much disapered here.
1. Do you NEED him to be gay in a different universe? No but the real question is why you have such a problem with even one version of him being that. There are 100s of alternative versions of him and you cant even accept one being gay? And who says there has to be genderbending? Maybe He just falls for someone like flash or GASP someone new.
2. "It ruins their close friendship".... I wont even comment on that one.
3. So he cant be a everyman if he is gay and it ruins him? Okay then so there exists no gay everymen in real life I guess?

This reminds me of people who says "I have nothing against gay people as long as they stay away from me". Well then you do clearly have something against them. I am not saying you hate them or anything if this is your attitude, but there is something there.

1) we're just not gonna be used to Peter being gay in a series in a different universe because of his representation of the main everyman.

2) i never said friendship. i said relationship like they are friends first then have such great feelings for eachother.

3) i never said there's no gay everyman. i said it kinda ruins his appeal as the main everymanhe guy who struggles with a relationship and has to meet some new and brilliant struggles internally and externally. he could discover his bisexuality or pansexuality but him just being gay just ruins the whole meaning the same way if Cap or Mary Jane turns gay.

[Quiver]

1) we're just not gonna be used to Peter being gay in a series in a different universe because of his representation of the main everyman.

This is, effectively, the reason why increased diversity needs to exist. The default assumption of a character shouldn't be "white, straight, cismale".

Heck, even with Peter it isn't. He has parallel universe counter parts who are British punks, Indian, ninjas, even a pig. It's clear that the Marvel multiverse can throw oit characters who are different from their mainstream counterparts.

Case in point. An old Exiles book featured a Mary Jane who was in a gay relationship...whereas 616!MJ hasn't expressed any such tendencies.
Alternatively... Collosus, as you pointed out, had his sexuality adapted for the Ultimate universe. There was a Wolverine featured in Extreme X-men, who was in a relationship with Hercules.

So, it is more than possible that a gay Peter Parker exists in the multiverse; it's a certainty.

[marvelguy25]

This is, effectively, the reason why increased diversity needs to exist. The default assumption of a character shouldn't be "white, straight, cismale".

Heck, even with Peter it isn't. He has parallel universe counter parts who are British punks, Indian, ninjas, even a pig. It's clear that the Marvel multiverse can throw oit characters who are different from their mainstream counterparts.

Case in point. An old Exiles book featured a Mary Jane who was in a gay relationship...whereas 616!MJ hasn't expressed any such tendencies.
Alternatively... Collosus, as you pointed out, had his sexuality adapted for the Ultimate universe. There was a Wolverine featured in Extreme X-men, who was in a relationship with Hercules.

So, it is more than possible that a gay Peter Parker exists in the multiverse; it's a certainty.

the British Punk was Hobie Brown, Spider-man India was a mini series that still has had the same characters but done differently, and Spider-ham is just a cartoon pig. Peter being gay is not something we'd get use to nor saying that would badly hurt diversity. even people from the same diversity wouldn't supoort this. Mary Jane was just a supporting character in an exiles series, Colossus was an interesting take but yet an alternate universe series where he can differentiate between him and his 616 counterpart and he is a supporting character in the entire x-men series. and Wolverine was from an alternate universe who has had a few appearances. same with Hercules. if they had a gay Peter they'd likely do it in another Exiles series or another multiverse team up series. but a gay Peter in his own series wouldn't do. Bicurious yes. Bisexual, yeah. but just fully gay wouldn't do. just make spider-gwen bisexual if that was the intention or just make his son be gay or bisexual or just make a new spider-character. it worked with Miles and his other fellow spider-casts so why can't they do the same with a new one?

[Bor]

the British Punk was Hobie Brown, Spider-man India was a mini series that still has had the same characters but done differently, and Spider-ham is just a cartoon pig. Peter being gay is not something we'd get use to nor saying that would badly hurt diversity. even people from the same diversity wouldn't supoort this. Mary Jane was just a supporting character in an exiles series, Colossus was an interesting take but yet an alternate universe series where he can differentiate between him and his 616 counterpart and he is a supporting character in the entire x-men series. and Wolverine was from an alternate universe who has had a few appearances. same with Hercules. if they had a gay Peter they'd likely do it in another Exiles series or another multiverse team up series. but a gay Peter in his own series wouldn't do. Bicurious yes. Bisexual, yeah. but just fully gay wouldn't do. just make spider-gwen bisexual if that was the intention or just make his son be gay or bisexual or just make a new spider-character. it worked with Miles and his other fellow spider-casts so why can't they do the same with a new one?

Please stop speaking for others then yourself. I would be used to it and fine with it if web-warriors or some other title presented a gay Peter Parker or he got a book of his own as long as it was good. As would many others. Saying that even people from the same diversity would go against it is likewise not something you have ANY basis for claiming. On this and others sites plenty of poster have expressed a desire to see a gay version of him. Would some people go against it? Yes but that is the way it is with all comic storylines/decisions.

Once again I would ask that you stop speaking for others when you clearly don´t have any clue or evidence to support your claims. The fact that you can not even accept an alternative version of Peter Parker being gay is YOUR problem and while others might share it, plenty of us do not and do not wish to have you speak for us in any way. The fact that you think it would ruin his everyday appeal also goes against everything you said that people can easely identify with others.

[marvelguy25]

Please stop speaking for others then yourself. I would be used to it and fine with it if web-warriors or some other title presented a gay Peter Parker or he got a book of his own as long as it was good. As would many others. Saying that even people from the same diversity would go against it is likewise not something you have ANY basis for claiming. On this and others sites plenty of poster have expressed a desire to see a gay version of him. Would some people go against it? Yes but that is the way it is with all comic storylines/decisions.

Once again I would ask that you stop speaking for others when you clearly don´t have any clue or evidence to support your claims. The fact that you can not even accept an alternative version of Peter Parker being gay is YOUR problem and while others might share it, plenty of us do not and do not wish to have you speak for us in any way. The fact that you think it would ruin his everyday appeal also goes against everything you said that people can easely identify with others.

i'm just speaking the truth. there is a reason why we couldn't accept a Parker being fully gay especially with years of development with his more important relationships with his lovers. a bisexual and bicurious peter would work but not one who is fully gay. also saying that doesn't go against everything that i say. i included other characters for a reason and how to do them and Peter is not one of those on the list tbh the same way scott summers, logan, nor even bruce banner could be gay. n's counterpart is gay but that was just a counterpart who just appeared in a few issues.

[Quiver]

I'll say this; yes, I would be opposed 616!Peter being revealed as gay. Partly because that version of the character has had lengthy relationships with women (which have formed a backbone of many stories), and partly because bisexual males are a really, really under exposed demographic in comics, so having THE everyman character be one who can serve as an example that exploring your sexuality or gender identity is normal and okay would be very important.

However, the name Peter Parker doesn't need to mean cis straight or white. I might not like Marvel changing 616!Peter on a whim. However, there is no reason why a Peter Parker cannot be gay. There's no reason the Ultimate Peter Parker couldn't have been bisexual, or why a Battlefield!Peter couldn't have been trans.

The Marvel Multiverse is...odd. The amount of differences between characters counterparts mean we can't make rulings like "they are gay in 616, so they must be gay in all universes". So that being the case, I see no problem with a Peter Parker in the multiverse being Queer.

(Actually, that might be an interesting idea to explore. Ben Reilly was intended as the 'younger and hipper' Peter; if they brought him back, they could definitely explore that kind of stuff...)

[marvelguy25]

I'll say this; yes, I would be opposed 616!Peter being revealed as gay. Partly because that version of the character has had lengthy relationships with women (which have formed a backbone of many stories), and partly because bisexual males are a really, really under exposed demographic in comics, so having THE everyman character be one who can serve as an example that exploring your sexuality or gender identity is normal and okay would be very important.

However, the name Peter Parker doesn't need to mean cis straight or white. I might not like Marvel changing 616!Peter on a whim. However, there is no reason why a Peter Parker cannot be gay. There's no reason the Ultimate Peter Parker couldn't have been bisexual, or why a Battlefield!Peter couldn't have been trans.

The Marvel Multiverse is...odd. The amount of differences between characters counterparts mean we can't make rulings like "they are gay in 616, so they must be gay in all universes". So that being the case, I see no problem with a Peter Parker in the multiverse being Queer.

(Actually, that might be an interesting idea to explore. Ben Reilly was intended as the 'younger and hipper' Peter; if they brought him back, they could definitely explore that kind of stuff...)

Ben Reily is a clone so there might be a chance for him to be either gay or bisexual. actually it would make sense for him to be bisexual since he would partially have peter's feelings for certain types of females. the same could be said about X-23. i think it would've been a great idea to put her as bisexual than whatever the heck Bendis did to Bobby. it would've been interesting to see her feelings towards Jean get explored.

[Bor]

i'm just speaking the truth. there is a reason why we couldn't accept a Parker being fully gay especially with years of development with his more important relationships with his lovers. a bisexual and bicurious peter would work but not one who is fully gay. also saying that doesn't go against everything that i say. i included other characters for a reason and how to do them and Peter is not one of those on the list tbh the same way scott summers, logan, nor even bruce banner could be gay. n's counterpart is gay but that was just a counterpart who just appeared in a few issues.

No that is really not the truth that is your own limited opinion. And I am going to ask you to stop saying "we". I do not share your limited and quite frankly narrow minded view so everytime you say "we" it feels like an insult. Many of us would have no problem accepting what you have a problem with. So yes the fact that you have such a problem with a different version does seem to go against your claim that people can completely understand others without problems.