thought on diversity in fiction

[Bor]

i'm saying that it's not really a good idea to make peter gay like it's not much of a good idea to make the Thing gay or Scott Summers gay or even Logan gay. have Ben Reily gay or make Peter bisexual. him being fully gay doesn't seem like a really good idea.

And I am saying that is just your opinion and many of us would have no problem with a gay version of peter parker and we do not lack the ability to see him as an everyday character even if you do. Also "fully gay"? You cant be half gay or something...

[marvelguy25]

And I am saying that is just your opinion and many of us would have no problem with a gay version of peter parker and we do not lack the ability to see him as an everyday character even if you do. Also "fully gay"? You cant be half gay or something...

half gay is bisexual or pansexual which peter should be instead of just him being interested in the same gender.

[Dark-Flux]

well it's not just the underdog but it's also his sexuality that pretty much fits his main everyman status.

No it isnt. You just saying this doesnt make it true.
If Peter was gay from the off, nothing would change except that his romantic supporting cast would be guys. Nothing about his characterization or the dynamics of his stories would change. Everything about the core of his character and the narrative drive of his stories would be intact.
He'd still be a nerdy kid who struggles with social situations. His Uncle would still be murdered. He'd still get bitten by a radioactive Spider, he'd still subscribe to the mandate that "with great power comes great responisbility", he'd still be heroic, he'd still be smart, he'd still protect NYC from super villains and he'd still have on and off again romantic relationships. Just with different characters.

[Bor]

half gay is bisexual or pansexual which peter should be instead of just him being interested in the same gender.

No it really isnt. Do you actually know any LGBT people? I do and I and can assure that those of them who are bisexual do not regard themselves as "half gay". They are there own thing and not half anything. They define themselves from what they are and not what they are not. Saying stuff like that is why people got irretated by you in these other threads. You claim to understand things when you clearly dont. You pretend to be an expert and while doing so demonstrate any lack of actual knowledge.

[TotalSnorefest]

Hey everyone, please keep this discussion civil here as it has been for the most part. Let's not call each other arrogant simply because opinions vary. I'm leaving this thread open for now because everyone involved clearly is intent on explaining their positions and educating each other, and I don't want to stifle that discussion if possible.

However, if it descends into more personal accusations the thead will be closed and action may be taken against individual posters.
Also, please note this is not the Spider-Man board, so let's not get bogged down too much in specifics of that series.

[marvelguy25]

No it isnt. You just saying this doesnt make it true.
If Peter was gay from the off, nothing would change except that his romantic supporting cast would be guys. Nothing about his characterization or the dynamics of his stories would change. Everything about the core of his character and the narrative drive of his stories would be intact.
He'd still be a nerdy kid who struggles with social situations. His Uncle would still be murdered. He'd still get bitten by a radioactive Spider, he'd still subscribe to the mandate that "with great power comes great responisbility", he'd still be heroic, he'd still be smart, he'd still protect NYC from super villains and he'd still have on and off again romantic relationships. Just with different characters.

i think there would still be some kind of change to him. the guy can be bisexual or pansexual but not fully gay. i think we'd leave that to a new character or a clone.

[marvelguy25]

No it really isnt. Do you actually know any LGBT people? I do and I and can assure that those of them who are bisexual do not regard themselves as "half gay". They are there own thing and not half anything. They define themselves from what they are and not what they are not. Saying stuff like that is why people got irretated by you in these other threads. You claim to understand things when you clearly dont. You pretend to be an expert and while doing so demonstrate any lack of actual knowledge.

people got irritated because of how far they just shove the whole diversity or P.C. stuff down our throats trying so hard to make things confusing and just try so hard into making us look like the enemy. which to be honest with how far they've taken this method makes people from other diversities and those who try to support it feel really uncomfortable. from complaining about quicksilver being there instead of northstar(which btw had no news of this), complaining about our complaints about giving Cap a boyfriend and making bucky gay, complaining about Iron Fist being white despite the character always being that, from the complaints of our complaint of Bobby being gay and how it's done, and the entire countless petitions and complaints of our complaints into how far they shove the whole diversity thing down our throats. i've also run into a person who complained about our complaints about Nick Fury Jr. when that person doesn't even understand the reason for that complaint. they think that being a straight white male means we don't have much knowledge to the whole cultures or diversities which is just plain ignorant. you say i have no right to speak for everyone else. i'm just trying to state things as best as i can and trying to be honest here with trying to make this look awkward. what they're doing and how they're doing simply tells us that they really have no right to speak for the community. also being half gay sounds to be implied by bisexuals. being fully gay applies to those who have the interest in the same sex.

[Dark-Flux]

i think there would still be some kind of change to him.

Like what?

the guy can be bisexual or pansexual but not fully gay. i think we'd leave that to a new character or a clone.

Why? Why is it fine for a clone but not an alternate universe version?
Whats the point in an alternate universe version if the characters exactly the same?

[marvelguy25]

Like what?



Why? Why is it fine for a clone but not an alternate universe version?
Whats the point in an alternate universe version if the characters exactly the same?

a clone can share some genetic traits but actually would have some differences to the character.

[Dark-Flux]

a clone can share some genetic traits but actually would have some differences to the character.

A clone would have the exact same genetic traits. Its a clone.

An alternative universe version could be entirely different. Thats the point.

[marvelguy25]

A clone would have the exact same genetic traits. Its a clone.

An alternative universe version could be entirely different. Thats the point.

depends on the clone. like i said. it's actually more of a good idea to use an alternate version of Peter Parker either Bisexual or Pansexual than just making him fully gay. it's really hard to explain but it's just better to make him that way.

[Quiver]

depends on the clone. like i said. it's actually more of a good idea to use an alternate version of Peter Parker either Bisexual or Pansexual than just making him fully gay. it's really hard to explain but it's just better to make him that way.

That is really bad logic, in that it's non-logic.
And I don't mean that as an assault on your character; but it's the kind of line of thought which doesn't allow for any rebuttal, and implicitly tries to close down the argument. It's basically saying "just because" as an answer.

Again; I would have issues with 616!Peter suddenly realising he was gay. While it's possible for someone to be closeted all their life - and in that way, could provide a valuable role model- I don't think that solution would fit the character.
616!Peter realising he is bisexual, or at least bicurious? I'd be fine with that, so long as it was respectfully done, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen.

(Which is why I push for a Bi!Reilly. After all, if Ben is Peter's identical clone, it does rather imply that Peter is also bisexual without outright saying so. On a sheer character level, it would be a way to differentiate Peter and Ben a bit more, too)

...But I can't see what problem there would be with having a parrallel version of Peter being gay. It's... it's not 616!Peter. That's the point.

The only reason - THE ONLY REASON - I can see for arguing against a gay Peter in the multiverse is because of genetics. If Parrallel!Peter is the same, genetically, as 616!Peter, then Parrallel!Peter being gay while 616!Peter is straight would suggest that homosexuality is nurture not nature, which isn't true.

...Except, as has already been established, the Marvel multiverse doesn't seem to work that way, and even if it did, there could be any amount of reasons why Parrallel!Peter would have a different orientation to regular Peter. It's comics; saying that one Peter was exposured to different levels of hormones in utero, leading to him developing a slightly different orientation, is far, far, far less of a stretch than "This is the multiverse, a vast collections of universes of infinite possibilities, endless potential, but also, Peter Parker turned out exactly the same in every single one of them."

[Dark-Flux]

depends on the clone. like i said. it's actually more of a good idea to use an alternate version of Peter Parker either Bisexual or Pansexual than just making him fully gay. it's really hard to explain but it's just better to make him that way.

Says you. With no sound reasoning whatsoever to back up that claim.

[marvelguy25]

Says you. With no sound reasoning whatsoever to back up that claim.

like i said, it's really hard to explain. i was hoping you guys would understand but sadly you don't. the point is Peter works as a bisexual character. not the main universe Peter nor the Ultimate Version but a Peter works on that because of the mythos of him being the main everyman and his important relationships with other characters. it could work for Rogue, Carol, Kitty, and of course Pietro but making peter fully gay instead of bisexual wouldn't work to fit his character.

[marvelguy25]

That is really bad logic, in that it's non-logic.
And I don't mean that as an assault on your character; but it's the kind of line of thought which doesn't allow for any rebuttal, and implicitly tries to close down the argument. It's basically saying "just because" as an answer.

Again; I would have issues with 616!Peter suddenly realising he was gay. While it's possible for someone to be closeted all their life - and in that way, could provide a valuable role model- I don't think that solution would fit the character.
616!Peter realising he is bisexual, or at least bicurious? I'd be fine with that, so long as it was respectfully done, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen.

(Which is why I push for a Bi!Reilly. After all, if Ben is Peter's identical clone, it does rather imply that Peter is also bisexual without outright saying so. On a sheer character level, it would be a way to differentiate Peter and Ben a bit more, too)

...But I can't see what problem there would be with having a parrallel version of Peter being gay. It's... it's not 616!Peter. That's the point.

The only reason - THE ONLY REASON - I can see for arguing against a gay Peter in the multiverse is because of genetics. If Parrallel!Peter is the same, genetically, as 616!Peter, then Parrallel!Peter being gay while 616!Peter is straight would suggest that homosexuality is nurture not nature, which isn't true.

...Except, as has already been established, the Marvel multiverse doesn't seem to work that way, and even if it did, there could be any amount of reasons why Parrallel!Peter would have a different orientation to regular Peter. It's comics; saying that one Peter was exposured to different levels of hormones in utero, leading to him developing a slightly different orientation, is far, far, far less of a stretch than "This is the multiverse, a vast collections of universes of infinite possibilities, endless potential, but also, Peter Parker turned out exactly the same in every single one of them."

it's not so much bad logic but more so that it's really hard to explain these things for you. Peter could work as a bisexual or a pansexual character but as a fully gay character just wouldn't let it slide especially with how important his mythos and relationships are. speaking of clones it would've been a good idea to make x-23 bisexual instead of just making bobby gay no matter how many people try to force you on the past hints. i've read them and i think you people misinformed and misinterpreted bobby's life. even if he was gay that just wasted 50 years of development the character was suppose to have.