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  1. #1
    Pokemon Master adameastment's Avatar
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    Default Does the (two) new Iron Man/Men suggest that Tony was/is "wrong"?

    So, the titles kinda suggests the point I'm getting at, but let me detail it a bit for you.

    So after the events of Civil War 1 we saw the Marvel Universe go the long way round to the "Heroic" age when Cap returned. I've heard people suggest that the Heroic Age would have essentially happened coming out of Civil War had Cap not been arrested/killed/assassinated. However, the big event afterwards, Secret Invasion would have happened regardless who was in or out of the Avengers team.

    But my point is, there was a feeling in Civil War 1 that cap had failed, and was "in the wrong". He gave himself up, and basically led to his assassination.

    So my question is, are we going to be seeing something similar with Iron Man? In my opinion he is absolutely in the right and they should be dealing with events as and when they appear. I've seen Minority Report, I know what happens when things might be taken out of context based on a pre-cog. Will we see Iron Man back off from ANAD Avengers in the new Marvel Now! Initiative? Or are we seeing something different? I know we're only a couple of issues in, but the way I see it, there is two options, 1. He is basically kicked out of the Avengers or feels it's better for him to leave and put Carol in charge. or 2. He goes into a period of mourning.

    What do you guys think?
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adameastment View Post
    So, the titles kinda suggests the point I'm getting at, but let me detail it a bit for you.

    So after the events of Civil War 1 we saw the Marvel Universe go the long way round to the "Heroic" age when Cap returned. I've heard people suggest that the Heroic Age would have essentially happened coming out of Civil War had Cap not been arrested/killed/assassinated. However, the big event afterwards, Secret Invasion would have happened regardless who was in or out of the Avengers team.

    But my point is, there was a feeling in Civil War 1 that cap had failed, and was "in the wrong". He gave himself up, and basically led to his assassination.

    So my question is, are we going to be seeing something similar with Iron Man? In my opinion he is absolutely in the right and they should be dealing with events as and when they appear. I've seen Minority Report, I know what happens when things might be taken out of context based on a pre-cog. Will we see Iron Man back off from ANAD Avengers in the new Marvel Now! Initiative? Or are we seeing something different? I know we're only a couple of issues in, but the way I see it, there is two options, 1. He is basically kicked out of the Avengers or feels it's better for him to leave and put Carol in charge. or 2. He goes into a period of mourning.

    What do you guys think?
    Based on:

    The cover to CWII #7,

    the fact that Carol is getting a relaunched book,

    the general premise of that book so far from what little we know, and

    the fact that there are going to be two(?) new Iron Man books without Tony in the lead,

    it seems all but certain that Team Carol is going to win CWII. Right now I think Tony's going to go to prison for something; maybe he'll be framed just like in MR, or maybe he'll actually commit some crime and later find out Ulysses predicted it, and then realize that the precrime stuff has merit. I don't know. That still wouldn't mean he's wrong, just not entirely right. Plus it seems like they're setting things up for Carol to increasingly take things too far after CWII is over; that's how it seems to me, anyway.
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  3. #3
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    I think the indicators are that Carol is winning... but that doesn't mean she's right or wrong for that matter.

    Steve's side lost the first Civil War. But I don't agree that was an indicator that he was wrong. In fact looking at it as a whole, I think in the end Marvel IMO did everything in their power after the event to essentially show Steve was right. The law was thrown out, Stark got a labotomy, and Steve was made top cop with Hill bringing him his coffee in the morning.

    Not saying the same will be true for Carol or Stark... but I don't believe winning or losing will necessarily indicate who is wrong or right. And I also do believe that Stark will heroically return the same way Steve did.

  4. #4
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I definitely think something is going to happen to Tony that takes him off the board, giving Doom and Riri freedom to take/steal the Iron Man mantle for themselves, at the end of Civil War II. The AI Tony on the cover of Riri's book will probably be the most we see of him for a while before he inevitably gets brought back, which will take however long Bendis' (likely heavily decompressed) Iron Man arc takes.

    I think there a variety of reasons why Carol's side won't actually win the war, despite what the cover of #7 and her relaunch might imply. For one, having a pre-cog like Ulysses would never work in the long-term of a shared, continuos, Superhero Universe, and I doubt Marvel wants to promote the message that people should be arrested for crimes they are predicted to commit, which Civil War II will likely devolve into.

    So maybe Carol wins the final fight but Ulysses does something that gets him away from all the craziness because he realizes how far his predictions have taken things, so nobody really wins (except technically Team Iron Man), and I especially don't see Team Carol winning.

    Though given the description for her new, relaunched book, it sounds like Carol doesn't really learn that much of a lesson come the end of Civil War II and is a highly controversial figure due to her actions (like arresting or bothering people for things they haven't done yet).

  5. #5
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    I think this time things are going to be really more... morally equal. Whoever wins or loose, none of the sides will look extremely wrong or right like on the first CW. I'm actually thinking that may end more with Tony looking wrong than Carol looking right. He does something that kinda ruins his credibility, and it ends that even if he was right, well, no one will see it like that anymore because he fucked up.

  6. #6
    Pokemon Master adameastment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the indicators are that Carol is winning... but that doesn't mean she's right or wrong for that matter.

    Steve's side lost the first Civil War. But I don't agree that was an indicator that he was wrong. In fact looking at it as a whole, I think in the end Marvel IMO did everything in their power after the event to essentially show Steve was right. The law was thrown out, Stark got a labotomy, and Steve was made top cop with Hill bringing him his coffee in the morning.

    Not saying the same will be true for Carol or Stark... but I don't believe winning or losing will necessarily indicate who is wrong or right. And I also do believe that Stark will heroically return the same way Steve did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I think this time things are going to be really more... morally equal. Whoever wins or loose, none of the sides will look extremely wrong or right like on the first CW. I'm actually thinking that may end more with Tony looking wrong than Carol looking right. He does something that kinda ruins his credibility, and it ends that even if he was right, well, no one will see it like that anymore because he fucked up.
    I'm going to guess that Tony will do something to Ulysses, killing him maybe. Or setting the wheels in motion to kill him. I'm only speculating, but I think that's probably what makes him lose credibility. Although, who will fund the Avengers after he gets deposed? Deadpool?
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  7. #7
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    The fans-avengers need learn to the x-fans


    no matter what the writers suggest
    "Tony Was right"
    Last edited by bubibartra; 07-09-2016 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Pokemon Master adameastment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubibartra View Post
    The fans-avengers need learn to the x-fans


    no matter what the writers suggest
    "Tony Was right"
    I think I made a mistake in putting an opinion on winning/losing position in the title.

    Because regardless Civil War II is about a fairly ambiguous position for both sides, everyone sees it differently. My question is more relating to the deposition of Tony as an Avenger and Iron Man, that's what concerns me more personally as I am a massive Stark fan - that's what got me into Comics ultimately.
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  9. #9
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adameastment View Post
    I think I made a mistake in putting an opinion on winning/losing position in the title.

    Because regardless Civil War II is about a fairly ambiguous position for both sides, everyone sees it differently. My question is more relating to the deposition of Tony as an Avenger and Iron Man, that's what concerns me more personally as I am a massive Stark fan - that's what got me into Comics ultimately.
    I think they've done so many things to Tony's character that even when he's right about a situation, he's going to get a lot more scrutiny. They're going to go about it in a manner that makes him look worse than the opposition(original Civil War). Even when the others agree with him, they will not trust him. As a Tony fan myself, I'm really getting tired of this kind of portrayal.
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  10. #10
    Astonishing Member UltimateTy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I think they've done so many things to Tony's character that even when he's right about a situation, he's going to get a lot more scrutiny. They're going to go about it in a manner that makes him look worse than the opposition(original Civil War). Even when the others agree with him, they will not trust him. As a Tony fan myself, I'm really getting tired of this kind of portrayal.
    Don't we all brother. I wasn't expecting anything different from this event.
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  11. #11
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    Don't we all brother. I wasn't expecting anything different from this event.
    Neither was I which is why I'm not bothering to pick it up. Event fatigue and Stark bashing have finally taken their toll for me. Makes me miss Matt Fraction badly.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by adameastment View Post
    I think I made a mistake in putting an opinion on winning/losing position in the title.

    Because regardless Civil War II is about a fairly ambiguous position for both sides, everyone sees it differently. My question is more relating to the deposition of Tony as an Avenger and Iron Man, that's what concerns me more personally as I am a massive Stark fan - that's what got me into Comics ultimately.
    Tony also needed this, for many years has painted Tony as a jerk who always gets her way and never suffers the consequences, I believe that for once he is right Tony will suffer harsh consequences Many people of comics hates Tony Stark all these years of Tony as a cretin untouchable. it was even better when Tony was an alcoholic, or an emotional disaster, Tony needs to be vulnerable again. This time it has been, has lost a friend and lost the mind,

    I like Tony, but in recent years cost love him. I got used to the last comcis iron man but because it was von Doom had five years writing it as a cretin who forgave him everything without reason.

    The only problem I have with the line is the inclusion of Bendi's Pet, Riri, vpn Doom depends on how the focus can be something horrible or something impressive. Tony has to leave his armor, in another dimension Tony was supreme sorcerer, if doom is iron man, Tony can learn magic in his retirement, do not know the terms but Tony needs to get out of his armor and avengers and try other things.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubibartra View Post
    The fans-avengers need learn to the x-fans


    no matter what the writers suggest
    "Tony Was right"
    The Avengers fans are far from worshiping Tony like X-Fans do with Scott, so, no. And Carol's an Avenger too.

  14. #14
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    The Avengers fans are far from worshiping Tony like X-Fans do with Scott, so, no. And Carol's an Avenger too.
    Lol, you got that right. There are only a few of us Tony fans still standing by him.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    The Avengers fans are far from worshiping Tony like X-Fans do with Scott, so, no. And Carol's an Avenger too.
    Carol have fans????????? I mean a significant amount

    Tony is often a jerk but I think he has many more fans than denvers carol.

    I liked tony before, but that was a very unbearable lately type. I'm reading his latest comic by Doom, years ago I liked Tony. Today there are few fans of Tony Stark.

    you do not understand a satirical comment?

    the x-fans tend to be against what the writers are trying to impose. It is a classic. For once, I think Tony is right, but the writers are determined to show that not and end Tony does something stupid to justify Carol Denvers. But at the root of the conflict, Tony's right. Kurt Wagner explains very well all wrong to use the power of Ulyses the way it is used. But writers do nothing but cause Tony to do stupid things to try to see the conflict as morally ambiguous.

    It is not so, Ulises powers are being used in a way that is not appropriate.

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