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  1. #1
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Default The case for Angela as Marvel's flagship superheroine or why Captain Marvel hasn't catched on so far

    I know I'm way late to the party and I really didn't want to make this part of an appreciation thread or Queen of Hel's thread, because involves other superheroines than Angela, like Captain Marvel and Jane Thor. This is basically me reacting to reading Angela: Asgard's Assassin and Queen of Hel up to the issue #3 (the last one avaliable on Marvel Unlimited so far). First I'd like to address that I don't know the ins and outs of the Neil Gaiman agreement over the character, but it seems to me that it's pretty definitive and Angela is now a Marvel Comics character through and through. Second I'd like to address that I do like Jane Thor, Spider-Gwen, Silk, Spider-Woman and Captain Marvel, and I know that all of them have better selling titles, especially Mighty Thor and Spider-Gwen.

    But in the light of Marvel failing time and time again to get a Captain Marvel book off the ground, I came with something that might be a solution for Marvel Comics to find the superheroine character that is viable to become a main player within Marvel Comics and eventually even get her own solo films. First I want to say that I haven't checked out her two short comic book runs because I was barely aware they even existed. I knew about Queen of Hel but really disliked the cover art and heard some rumblings here and there on the message board about how good the book was, but never enough to actually make me check out the books.

    If I was in charge of making Captain Marvel an actually popular book, I guess I'd start with a character make over. I mean, I get why she isn't going with this costume anymore:



    But her new costume is just plain boring, with all due respect, while it does look beautiful and pratical, it's just plain boring:




    And I get it: it's pratical. I know how majority of her hardcore fans are passionate with it. But listen, it's not working. I think some middleground between her old costume and her new ones is needed. And also, lose the goddamn military cut, bring back her long hair. She isn't a soldier anymore, she's goddamn Captain Marvel and she looks better with the long hair. I don't know who this new writer is, but it doesn't make me interested at all in reading her either. Does she at least have a big following outside comics like Ta-Nehisi to even justify her getting this book? Because right now it's meaningless to me. By the way, do you know WHO could kick ass with Captain Marvel? Marguerite Bennet. Why?

    Well, her two Angela series flew way under the radar, but I'm pretty convinced after reading her Queen of Hel that her Angela has literally EVERYTHING to become Marvel's flagship character. Seriously, Marvel should stop whatever they are doing promoting Jane Thor since that without Natalie Portman they can't really use her outside comics for now and focus on her instead. Seriously, it's insane the amount of work that Bennet brought to that book and how much it just simply works. I'm glad that she's back to her more traditional costume for Guardians, since I actually think that Marguerite can write one hell of an Angela with an space bikini if needed, and most of all, since she's an Asgardian angel warrior, very much like Wonder Woman she can get away with it, something that other superheroines like Carol, Spider-Woman or literally most of the other characters couldn't.



    So that should be a character's asset, and I actually could see her getting even more popular than either Thor or Wonder Woman if done right. The amount of work done with her since she became a Marvel character is mind blowing, and it'd make for Marvel Studios first LBGT character and I do think it's possible to achieve that with a PG-13 movie, especially if it's done with the amount of nuance and grace that it's done in Bennet's and Gillen's books, which is surprisingly better than Gillen's first run with her. Angela is flawed and an interesting character. Her book failed for pretty much lack of promotion, since I bet that she was the one that Marvel was promoting and pushing like they do with Jane Thor, her book could do a lot better, heavy themes and all. And the crazy about the book isn't that the whole LBGT angle makes the book cool, it's just part of what makes it cool. The amount of character development on those two series is insane and it's amazingly written. I don't know what's the arrangement Marvel has with Gaiman over her, but if I was Feige and saw that book, I'd seriously consider just drop the whole Captain Marvel film and make an Angela film instead, if Marvel has full control of her I mean, what I kinda guess they do.

    With that said: Carol has to earn it. This Carol Corps thing, all of this, everything surrounding the character is just... boring. I don't think making her an alcoholic is the solution or just to bring her back to her old T&A costume would solve it. Her problem, pardon me their fans is that the character has become simply boring. As hell. And the whole premise teasing the new book? Once again, BORING AS HELL. I don't really know how she can get some popularity, if she'll keep getting her comic relaunched again and again up until Marvel Studios decides what to do with her. But it baffles me how Marvel is trying so hard with her and just can't find something that stick. Angela is cool, Ms. Marvel is awesome, Jane Thor is awesome, Spider-Woman is greatness and Carol has become... boring. And that's the hugest issue here. Angela might sell even worse than Captain Marvel, but at least she has a case right now - even more than in the Spawn days, and she was already great back then - for something truly unique and bad ass in the Marvel universe, either in the comics or the films side of things. Captain Marvel right now is at an even worse place than Iron Man before his films or even now with Bendis writing him to kill him and/or replacing: she's a boring character with an in universe super popularity that isn't translated outside comics, she has become "too perfect" like people said here or elsewhere and the character has lost her flavor.

    So basically what I'm saying is: I'm sorry Marguerite but your new Lobo sucked. Sucked. I don't know if it was an editorial choice or what the hell happened there but it was a disaster. Your Angela tho? Brilliant. You and Gillen reinvented a character that was already great and made it even greater, congrats to Kieron Gillen to work in Asgard's Assassin too but Queen of Hel is the one that steals the show. It's a premise that doesn't work in the long run for the character, but it made for a hell of a great little run. I'm ready for more Bennet written Angela and Sera adventures with the former sporting the infamous space bikini and kicking ass as an Asgardian angel warrior bounty hunter. Or Bennet should write Captain Marvel, or both. Promote the hell of it. Bring Stephanie Hans back and pair her with another badass artist. Oh, and make Marguerite an exclusive, Marvel. She's a keeper, and I'd argue that even a better writer than Kieron Gillen. I'd be way more interested on what she has to say and do with Captain Marvel than whatever an unproven YA writer has to say about her, been there done that.

    And remember Carol, her fans and most of all, Marvel: Nothing is for nothing. And everything has a price.
    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 07-11-2016 at 06:42 AM.
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Captain M's Avatar
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    What is this. I wouldn't even put Angela in like TOP 30 of "Most Iconic/Popular/Liked Female Characters of Marvel" , heck, 40.

    While Carol would be on top 3 for sure.

    Mind you this is not a personal list. I'm being objective.

    So I don't see the point at all. Carol is clearly way more successful than Angela IN. EVERY. WAY. POSSIBLE.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    It does not make sense for Angela to be at the center of conflict like CWII like Carol is. She doesn't have the in universe clout or the out of universe popularity for it. Carol has at least one of those two things. If not Carol go for Invisible Woman, Storm, She-Hulk, resurrected Jean Grey, or even Wasp.

  4. #4
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    Sorry, but no.

    Angela is, from what I have seen, a psycho. You might as well push for the Punisher to become the flagship male hero.

    Mind you based on what happens in Civil War 2 Carol might not look so good either...
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #5
    Incredible Member macattack's Avatar
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    Angela lost her chances the moment the "UNSOLICITED OPINIONS ON ISRAEL" meme went viral and critics seized on it as evidence of how comics lost their way. The comic was already struggling but it was doomed the moment that went viral.

    Angela will be damaged goods for a while due to that.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    It does not make sense for Angela to be at the center of conflict like CWII like Carol is. She doesn't have the in universe clout or the out of universe popularity for it. Carol has at least one of those two things. If not Carol go for Invisible Woman, Storm, She-Hulk, resurrected Jean Grey, or even Wasp.
    No it doesn't. Angela doesn't need to make part of Civil War tho, she could use Jane Thor's position at the Avengers and an actual promotion push like Marvel did for Jane Thor. Carol having "an in universe popularity" is actually part of her curse right now. Crystal is also popular in universe, same goes for Lyla Cheney. Neither amounted to nothing. Deadpool was made popular in universe almost two decades after he was actually popular in real life, so it just made it hillarious and meta. Carol is at a place that I'd argue that literally every other superheroine character looks better and more promising than her right now. Even RiRi, that barely showed up. Also, she'll sell more comics. And the reason is that Marvel made her boring, not on purpose, but it's what happened.

    Also, neither Invisible Woman, Storm and Jean Grey are part of the characters that Marvel Studios can use, and it's obvious that Marvel Comics is focusing on characters that they can use outside comics right now. She-Hulk can be cool, but female bad ass warrior that could make a run with Wolverine type of bad ass that Marvel fully controls (if they do have full ownership, and it seems they do)? That's Angela. If used right, and she was used right, just poorly and terribly promoted, she can breakout. Her just two runs are just insanely awesome and I haven't read everything Jane Thor, but it's truly one of the best books Marvel has published lately.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Sorry, but no.

    Angela is, from what I have seen, a psycho. You might as well push for the Punisher to become the flagship male hero.

    Mind you based on what happens in Civil War 2 Carol might not look so good either...
    Wolverine is as much of a psycho as her. And yet he was Marvel's loveable bad ass for decades. She has an edge, she is dangerous, flawed and an warrior. She was infused with the kind of Marvel flawed pedigree since she was made part of Marvel Comics that all I can see here is insane untapped potential, especially after Marguerite Bennet's run, which I completely ignored because it was never really promoted and the covers were - I'm sorry, but that's how I felt - boring. If I knew how great they were I'd buy all the books in a heartbeat. Now I'm definitely getting the TPBs though.


    Quote Originally Posted by macattack View Post
    Angela lost her chances the moment the "UNSOLICITED OPINIONS ON ISRAEL" meme went viral and critics seized on it as evidence of how comics lost their way. The comic was already struggling but it was doomed the moment that went viral.

    Angela will be damaged goods for a while due to that.
    Uh... I don't like to be blunt, but whoever got offended by that is the kind of people that hangs on 4chan, engage on gamergate talk and gets way too much bothered with politics in comic books, and that's a crowd I don't really care Marvel pleasing or not. Politics in Marvel Comics exist since Captain America punching Hitler, and I find that scene hillarious. The book NEVER selled well because it was terribly promoted. It's easily the best book after Secret Wars. And I can't recommend it highly enough. Subversive, violent and deliciously fun.
    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 07-11-2016 at 07:10 AM.
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  7. #7
    Incredible Member kevlon's Avatar
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    Carol is far more popular and successful than Angela. However Carol is indeed boring imo. I keep picking up her series hoping for something different, but each time I get bored.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    No it doesn't. Angela doesn't need to make part of Civil War tho, she could use Jane Thor's position at the Avengers and an actual promotion push like Marvel did for Jane Thor. Carol having "an in universe popularity" is actually part of her curse right now. Crystal is also popular in universe, same goes for Lyla Cheney. Neither amounted to nothing. Deadpool was made popular in universe almost two decades after he was actually popular in real life, so it just made it hillarious and meta. Carol is at a place that I'd argue that literally every other superheroine character looks better and more promising than her right now. Even RiRi, that barely showed up. Also, she'll sell more comics. And the reason is that Marvel made her boring, not on purpose, but it's what happened.

    Wolverine is as much of a psycho as her. And yet he was Marvel's loveable bad ass for decades. She has an edge, she is dangerous, flawed and an warrior. She was infused with the kind of Marvel flawed pedigree since she was made part of Marvel Comics that all I can see here is insane untapped potential, especially after Marguerite Bennet's run, which I completely ignored because it was never really promoted and the covers were - I'm sorry, but that's how I felt - boring. If I knew how great they were I'd buy all the books in a heartbeat. Now I'm definitely getting the TPBs though.

    Uh... I don't like to be blunt, but whoever got offended by that is the kind of people that hangs on 4chan, engage on gamergate talk and gets way too much bothered with politics in comic books, and that's a crowd I don't really care Marvel pleasing or not. Politics in Marvel Comics exist since Captain America punching Hitler, and I find that scene hillarious. The book NEVER selled well because it was terribly promoted. It's easily the best book after Secret Wars. And I can't recommend it highly enough. Subversive, violent and deliciously fun.
    But we aren't talking about trying to make her popular, or giving her a push. We are talking about making her the Marvel flagship. Akin to Captain America or Ironman in the MCU.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    But we aren't talking about trying to make her popular, or giving her a push. We are talking about making her the Marvel flagship. Akin to Captain America or Ironman in the MCU.
    Give her the Wolverine role in Avengers, a proper marketing push, amazing covers and an A list artist to pair up with Stephanie Hans and watch her become a flagship character then. Dude, she's controversial as hell and an assassin. A cosmic assassin. I agree that making her a Guardians related character makes more sense with the type of stories she can usually can go for, but make her have a debt with the Avengers or something. Seriously, it can work.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevlon View Post
    Carol is far more popular and successful than Angela. However Carol is indeed boring imo. I keep picking up her series hoping for something different, but each time I get bored.
    Carol might be popular and successful inside the Marvel Universe. She might be popular and successful with "top 40 lists" and whatever. But something is obviously missing, if not she'd be the breakout character and not Ms. Marvel or Jane Thor. What I'm saying is that Angela brings something completely new and fresh to the table unlike any other of Marvel's flagship players, and the bad assery she's capable of would make her popular if Marvel is interested on making her breakout. The very first thing that I'd do is get her into the Avengers and basically make her the Wolverine of the team. There's room for a Logan type of character in the Marvel Earth 616 universe right now, with Logan being dead and X-23 getting a non-lethal rule.
    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 07-11-2016 at 07:19 AM.
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  10. #10
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    The most exciting thing to ever happen with Angela was the legal battle between Gaiman and McFarlane. Marvel didn't make her boring, she just is.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Thorson View Post
    The most exciting thing to ever happen with Angela was the legal battle between Gaiman and McFarlane. Marvel didn't make her boring, she just is.
    Have you actually read Asgard's Assassin and Queen of Hel? I had literally nothing good to say about her before reading the comics except that I found her covers boring. Now all I can think of is that I need a hell lot more of Angela comics. Not sure what bothers people so much about her, but I think that pretty much everything that makes me think she's amazing, haha.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    Have you actually read Asgard's Assassin and Queen of Hel? I had literally nothing good to say about her before reading the comics except that I found her covers boring. Now all I can think of is that I need a hell lot more of Angela comics. Not sure what bothers people so much about her, but I think that pretty much everything that makes me think she's amazing, haha.
    Yup, read all that and I still don't see the appeal. It's awesome that you like her so much, I just don't think she's a strong enough character to be Marvel's flagship female character.

  13. #13
    Rookie Member Quiver's Avatar
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    First off, as someone whose first impression of Carol was as Warbird, I disagree. The new costume, the new look, is amazing; it really gives her her own unique identity. Looking at the costume, you get who Carol is, how she operates, what differentiates her mindset from other heroes.

    Which is party of why Carol works over Angela. I mean... just look at the names. On the one hand, you have Captain Marvel, a name which has the recognition of being tied to Marvel directly, a name which is bombastic, and screams 'this is a superhero!'. She is amazing.

    On the other hand, you have Angela. Which... isn't exactly something that slots right in with the rest of the universe. And is kind of... well, dull. You could introduce her via, say, the Thor films, but she will always be tied TO THAT FRANCHISE, rather than being the headliner of her own bock of movies, Cap or Iron Man-style. Even if she does spin out of Thor into her own films... well, it'll be viewed as 'the popular spin off character' rather than the main event.

    Is there a place for Angela within the MCU? Sure. Is that place as the flagship female character, the make or break badass that will propel the franchise forward once Robert Downey Jr and Chris Evan's contracts run out?
    Nope. I just don't see it.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiver View Post
    First off, as someone whose first impression of Carol was as Warbird, I disagree. The new costume, the new look, is amazing; it really gives her her own unique identity. Looking at the costume, you get who Carol is, how she operates, what differentiates her mindset from other heroes.

    Which is party of why Carol works over Angela. I mean... just look at the names. On the one hand, you have Captain Marvel, a name which has the recognition of being tied to Marvel directly, a name which is bombastic, and screams 'this is a superhero!'. She is amazing.
    And I'd argue that the costume is beautiful, but boring. The concept is great in theory, but boring. She is really amazing, and so amazing that she is boring. And the whole Captain Marvel name is actually sort of corny, it has a less of an uphill battle than Captain America, but it's still corny. Also, unlike Wonder Woman, she doesn't have a big following. All could change with the films, but so far the comics other than Brian Reed's run everything else made her character a less compelling character than she once was. And I do think that goes with her costume as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiver View Post
    On the other hand, you have Angela. Which... isn't exactly something that slots right in with the rest of the universe. And is kind of... well, dull. You could introduce her via, say, the Thor films, but she will always be tied TO THAT FRANCHISE, rather than being the headliner of her own bock of movies, Cap or Iron Man-style. Even if she does spin out of Thor into her own films... well, it'll be viewed as 'the popular spin off character' rather than the main event.

    Is there a place for Angela within the MCU? Sure. Is that place as the flagship female character, the make or break badass that will propel the franchise forward once Robert Downey Jr and Chris Evan's contracts run out?
    Nope. I just don't see it.
    I actually think that the way she was linked to Thor's storyline works greatly, without really chaining her as a legacy character to Thor like Jane Thor obviously does. She's her own character, while attached to Marvel's cosmic side and the whole Ten Realms. With that said, Wolverine was always linked with the X-Men but became as big as them, if not bigger at the very least a crucial character for their mythos. I actually see in Angela a character with Wolverine's type of potential that Marvel Studios can fully control. You can make a bad ass Asgardian angel bounty hunter killer and get away with a PG-13 rating since she'd be killing mostly otherworldy creatures, demons, gods and etc. Her costume is iconic enough and she is controversial enough as a lesbian/bissexual (the whole Spawn thing) that I just think that could work. Angela is different, and being unlike other Marvel Comics characters might come in handy with her popularity if Marvel decides to push her.

    Also, Marguerite Bennet should be writing Captain Marvel imho. Make her write both Captain Marvel and Angela for all I care. Promote the hell of their books with an A-list team of artists. Watch them breakout. :P
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  15. #15
    Rookie Member Quiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    it has a less of an uphill battle than Captain America, but it's still corny.
    I would very much argue this point. Is Marvel having a character with their name a little silly? Maybe.
    But more of a struggle to accept than Captain America? I disagree. Look at the first Cap movie,when non-US countries had the option to title it as 'The First Avenger' rather than Captain America. 'Captain America' sounds Jingoistic, a character built to appeal to Americans; 'Captain Marvel' sounds more universal.

    (And note, I'm just saying how it appears. In universe, Cap isn't the "U!S!A!" type... but the patriotism is still a factor to him. Does Carol have patriotism, as a US soldier? Absolutely. But the moniker, 'Captain Marvel', doesn't suggest that. In that way, she actually could appeal to a wider audience. )

    Also, unlike Wonder Woman, she doesn't have a big following. All could change with the films, but so far the comics other than Brian Reed's run everything else made her character a less compelling character than she once was. And I do think that goes with her costume as well.
    I do think that Carol has, perhaps, been idealised to an extent; some of the flaws I remember from her early days seem to have been softbooted out of the character. However, I do think she has a lot of fascinating stuff going on; her current role as leader of Alpha Flight sounds pretty interesting. But, I haven't read enough of Captain Marvel to argue the point; all I'll say, as a lay person, is that I don't see why Captain Marvel, on the face of it, should be less interesting than Captain America.

    I actually think that the way she was linked to Thor's storyline works greatly, without really chaining her as a legacy character to Thor like Jane Thor obviously does. She's her own character, while attached to Marvel's cosmic side and the whole Ten Realms. With that said, Wolverine was always linked with the X-Men but became as big as them, if not bigger at the very least a crucial character for their mythos. I actually see in Angela a character with Wolverine's type of potential that Marvel Studios can fully control. You can make a bad ass Asgardian angel bounty hunter killer and get away with a PG-13 rating since she'd be killing mostly otherworldy creatures, demons, gods and etc. Her costume is iconic enough and she is controversial enough as a lesbian/bissexual (the whole Spawn thing) that I just think that could work. Angela is different, and being unlike other Marvel Comics characters might come in handy with her popularity if Marvel decides to push her.
    Hah, I'm a 'Cyclops was Right' kind of fan, so maybe Wolvering was a bad example. : P

    But, I'd actually say Angel might be a bit too different, frankly. Honestly, looking at the cover you posted? She just doesn't look like someone I picture running around the Marvel universe (I mean, I know that's because she was invented for the 90's Spawn universe, but still...)

    Aesthetically, she doesn't seem to mesh up with the rest of the cosmos; her armor doesn't look Asgardian, or like any of the other alien races we've seen. And, rankly, if she was getting used? It would definitely push the 'alien' side of it; the MCU films have quietly adjusted Asgard to more of an alien race than gods and myths, so I can't quite see how Angela running around killing angels and demons would work in that setting. If you're going to change it, to her running around killing aliens... well, Marvel has bounty hunter characters. Heck, Marvel has Gamora, who is already popular thanks to the Guardians movie.

    (Not to mention, I just don't think PG-13 is a great fit for that kind of bloody character. The Fox films dance awkwardly around it, but the Marvel movies are definitely meant more for kids and young adults; there is no way they are going to go all bloody viscera and gore on their property).

    Now- I could be wrong. Ten years ago, I never would have thought we'd get... well, any of the movies we've gotten since then. "

    Seriously, they are gonna make an Ant Man movie? Guardians of the what? Ms Marvel- you mean that superheroine Rogue mind drained, she's gonna get a movie?!This is gonna flop so badly."

    At the moment, Angela is just not a viable product for Marvel to put their eggs into... but then again, neither was Carol. Neither was Iron Man. I'll concede that they could build her up in the comics to the point that fans want -nay, demand- an on-screen appearance... that that isn't now, and it isn't yet. Honestly, I've never heard anyone - in universe or out- talk about Angela, whereas Captain Marvel? She's popular. And if I was a movie producer, and I had to choose between them, I'd go for Cap.

    So... yeah. Maybe Angela could get a film eventualy, but she'll need to build up a comics reputation first of all (which might not even be enough, since seriously, we are only now getting a Wonder Woman film, what the hell DC?). Expecting Marvel to decide she should be the cornerstone of their franchise, right now? That's unrealistic.

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