The case for Angela as Marvel's flagship superheroine or why Captain Marvel hasn't catched on so far

[ijacksparrow]

I know I'm way late to the party and I really didn't want to make this part of an appreciation thread or Queen of Hel's thread, because involves other superheroines than Angela, like Captain Marvel and Jane Thor. This is basically me reacting to reading Angela: Asgard's Assassin and Queen of Hel up to the issue #3 (the last one avaliable on Marvel Unlimited so far). First I'd like to address that I don't know the ins and outs of the Neil Gaiman agreement over the character, but it seems to me that it's pretty definitive and Angela is now a Marvel Comics character through and through. Second I'd like to address that I do like Jane Thor, Spider-Gwen, Silk, Spider-Woman and Captain Marvel, and I know that all of them have better selling titles, especially Mighty Thor and Spider-Gwen.

But in the light of Marvel failing time and time again to get a Captain Marvel book off the ground, I came with something that might be a solution for Marvel Comics to find the superheroine character that is viable to become a main player within Marvel Comics and eventually even get her own solo films. First I want to say that I haven't checked out her two short comic book runs because I was barely aware they even existed. I knew about Queen of Hel but really disliked the cover art and heard some rumblings here and there on the message board about how good the book was, but never enough to actually make me check out the books.

If I was in charge of making Captain Marvel an actually popular book, I guess I'd start with a character make over. I mean, I get why she isn't going with this costume anymore:



But her new costume is just plain boring, with all due respect, while it does look beautiful and pratical, it's just plain boring:




And I get it: it's pratical. I know how majority of her hardcore fans are passionate with it. But listen, it's not working. I think some middleground between her old costume and her new ones is needed. And also, lose the goddamn military cut, bring back her long hair. She isn't a soldier anymore, she's goddamn Captain Marvel and she looks better with the long hair. I don't know who this new writer is, but it doesn't make me interested at all in reading her either. Does she at least have a big following outside comics like Ta-Nehisi to even justify her getting this book? Because right now it's meaningless to me. By the way, do you know WHO could kick ass with Captain Marvel? Marguerite Bennet. Why?

Well, her two Angela series flew way under the radar, but I'm pretty convinced after reading her Queen of Hel that her Angela has literally EVERYTHING to become Marvel's flagship character. Seriously, Marvel should stop whatever they are doing promoting Jane Thor since that without Natalie Portman they can't really use her outside comics for now and focus on her instead. Seriously, it's insane the amount of work that Bennet brought to that book and how much it just simply works. I'm glad that she's back to her more traditional costume for Guardians, since I actually think that Marguerite can write one hell of an Angela with an space bikini if needed, and most of all, since she's an Asgardian angel warrior, very much like Wonder Woman she can get away with it, something that other superheroines like Carol, Spider-Woman or literally most of the other characters couldn't.



So that should be a character's asset, and I actually could see her getting even more popular than either Thor or Wonder Woman if done right. The amount of work done with her since she became a Marvel character is mind blowing, and it'd make for Marvel Studios first LBGT character and I do think it's possible to achieve that with a PG-13 movie, especially if it's done with the amount of nuance and grace that it's done in Bennet's and Gillen's books, which is surprisingly better than Gillen's first run with her. Angela is flawed and an interesting character. Her book failed for pretty much lack of promotion, since I bet that she was the one that Marvel was promoting and pushing like they do with Jane Thor, her book could do a lot better, heavy themes and all. And the crazy about the book isn't that the whole LBGT angle makes the book cool, it's just part of what makes it cool. The amount of character development on those two series is insane and it's amazingly written. I don't know what's the arrangement Marvel has with Gaiman over her, but if I was Feige and saw that book, I'd seriously consider just drop the whole Captain Marvel film and make an Angela film instead, if Marvel has full control of her I mean, what I kinda guess they do.

With that said: Carol has to earn it. This Carol Corps thing, all of this, everything surrounding the character is just... boring. I don't think making her an alcoholic is the solution or just to bring her back to her old T&A costume would solve it. Her problem, pardon me their fans is that the character has become simply boring. As hell. And the whole premise teasing the new book? Once again, BORING AS HELL. I don't really know how she can get some popularity, if she'll keep getting her comic relaunched again and again up until Marvel Studios decides what to do with her. But it baffles me how Marvel is trying so hard with her and just can't find something that stick. Angela is cool, Ms. Marvel is awesome, Jane Thor is awesome, Spider-Woman is greatness and Carol has become... boring. And that's the hugest issue here. Angela might sell even worse than Captain Marvel, but at least she has a case right now - even more than in the Spawn days, and she was already great back then - for something truly unique and bad ass in the Marvel universe, either in the comics or the films side of things. Captain Marvel right now is at an even worse place than Iron Man before his films or even now with Bendis writing him to kill him and/or replacing: she's a boring character with an in universe super popularity that isn't translated outside comics, she has become "too perfect" like people said here or elsewhere and the character has lost her flavor.

So basically what I'm saying is: I'm sorry Marguerite but your new Lobo sucked. Sucked. I don't know if it was an editorial choice or what the hell happened there but it was a disaster. Your Angela tho? Brilliant. You and Gillen reinvented a character that was already great and made it even greater, congrats to Kieron Gillen to work in Asgard's Assassin too but Queen of Hel is the one that steals the show. It's a premise that doesn't work in the long run for the character, but it made for a hell of a great little run. I'm ready for more Bennet written Angela and Sera adventures with the former sporting the infamous space bikini and kicking ass as an Asgardian angel warrior bounty hunter. Or Bennet should write Captain Marvel, or both. Promote the hell of it. Bring Stephanie Hans back and pair her with another badass artist. Oh, and make Marguerite an exclusive, Marvel. She's a keeper, and I'd argue that even a better writer than Kieron Gillen. I'd be way more interested on what she has to say and do with Captain Marvel than whatever an unproven YA writer has to say about her, been there done that.

And remember Carol, her fans and most of all, Marvel: Nothing is for nothing. And everything has a price.

[Captain M]

What is this. I wouldn't even put Angela in like TOP 30 of "Most Iconic/Popular/Liked Female Characters of Marvel" , heck, 40.

While Carol would be on top 3 for sure.

Mind you this is not a personal list. I'm being objective.

So I don't see the point at all. Carol is clearly way more successful than Angela IN. EVERY. WAY. POSSIBLE.

[brettc1]

Sorry, but no.

Angela is, from what I have seen, a psycho. You might as well push for the Punisher to become the flagship male hero.

Mind you based on what happens in Civil War 2 Carol might not look so good either...

[macattack]

Angela lost her chances the moment the "UNSOLICITED OPINIONS ON ISRAEL" meme went viral and critics seized on it as evidence of how comics lost their way. The comic was already struggling but it was doomed the moment that went viral.

Angela will be damaged goods for a while due to that.

[ijacksparrow]

It does not make sense for Angela to be at the center of conflict like CWII like Carol is. She doesn't have the in universe clout or the out of universe popularity for it. Carol has at least one of those two things. If not Carol go for Invisible Woman, Storm, She-Hulk, resurrected Jean Grey, or even Wasp.

No it doesn't. Angela doesn't need to make part of Civil War tho, she could use Jane Thor's position at the Avengers and an actual promotion push like Marvel did for Jane Thor. Carol having "an in universe popularity" is actually part of her curse right now. Crystal is also popular in universe, same goes for Lyla Cheney. Neither amounted to nothing. Deadpool was made popular in universe almost two decades after he was actually popular in real life, so it just made it hillarious and meta. Carol is at a place that I'd argue that literally every other superheroine character looks better and more promising than her right now. Even RiRi, that barely showed up. Also, she'll sell more comics. And the reason is that Marvel made her boring, not on purpose, but it's what happened.

Also, neither Invisible Woman, Storm and Jean Grey are part of the characters that Marvel Studios can use, and it's obvious that Marvel Comics is focusing on characters that they can use outside comics right now. She-Hulk can be cool, but female bad ass warrior that could make a run with Wolverine type of bad ass that Marvel fully controls (if they do have full ownership, and it seems they do)? That's Angela. If used right, and she was used right, just poorly and terribly promoted, she can breakout. Her just two runs are just insanely awesome and I haven't read everything Jane Thor, but it's truly one of the best books Marvel has published lately.

Sorry, but no.

Angela is, from what I have seen, a psycho. You might as well push for the Punisher to become the flagship male hero.

Mind you based on what happens in Civil War 2 Carol might not look so good either...

Wolverine is as much of a psycho as her. And yet he was Marvel's loveable bad ass for decades. She has an edge, she is dangerous, flawed and an warrior. She was infused with the kind of Marvel flawed pedigree since she was made part of Marvel Comics that all I can see here is insane untapped potential, especially after Marguerite Bennet's run, which I completely ignored because it was never really promoted and the covers were - I'm sorry, but that's how I felt - boring. If I knew how great they were I'd buy all the books in a heartbeat. Now I'm definitely getting the TPBs though.

Angela lost her chances the moment the "UNSOLICITED OPINIONS ON ISRAEL" meme went viral and critics seized on it as evidence of how comics lost their way. The comic was already struggling but it was doomed the moment that went viral.

Angela will be damaged goods for a while due to that.

Uh... I don't like to be blunt, but whoever got offended by that is the kind of people that hangs on 4chan, engage on gamergate talk and gets way too much bothered with politics in comic books, and that's a crowd I don't really care Marvel pleasing or not. Politics in Marvel Comics exist since Captain America punching Hitler, and I find that scene hillarious. The book NEVER selled well because it was terribly promoted. It's easily the best book after Secret Wars. And I can't recommend it highly enough. Subversive, violent and deliciously fun.

[kevlon]

Carol is far more popular and successful than Angela. However Carol is indeed boring imo. I keep picking up her series hoping for something different, but each time I get bored.

[DurararaFTW]

No it doesn't. Angela doesn't need to make part of Civil War tho, she could use Jane Thor's position at the Avengers and an actual promotion push like Marvel did for Jane Thor. Carol having "an in universe popularity" is actually part of her curse right now. Crystal is also popular in universe, same goes for Lyla Cheney. Neither amounted to nothing. Deadpool was made popular in universe almost two decades after he was actually popular in real life, so it just made it hillarious and meta. Carol is at a place that I'd argue that literally every other superheroine character looks better and more promising than her right now. Even RiRi, that barely showed up. Also, she'll sell more comics. And the reason is that Marvel made her boring, not on purpose, but it's what happened.

Wolverine is as much of a psycho as her. And yet he was Marvel's loveable bad ass for decades. She has an edge, she is dangerous, flawed and an warrior. She was infused with the kind of Marvel flawed pedigree since she was made part of Marvel Comics that all I can see here is insane untapped potential, especially after Marguerite Bennet's run, which I completely ignored because it was never really promoted and the covers were - I'm sorry, but that's how I felt - boring. If I knew how great they were I'd buy all the books in a heartbeat. Now I'm definitely getting the TPBs though.

Uh... I don't like to be blunt, but whoever got offended by that is the kind of people that hangs on 4chan, engage on gamergate talk and gets way too much bothered with politics in comic books, and that's a crowd I don't really care Marvel pleasing or not. Politics in Marvel Comics exist since Captain America punching Hitler, and I find that scene hillarious. The book NEVER selled well because it was terribly promoted. It's easily the best book after Secret Wars. And I can't recommend it highly enough. Subversive, violent and deliciously fun.

But we aren't talking about trying to make her popular, or giving her a push. We are talking about making her the Marvel flagship. Akin to Captain America or Ironman in the MCU.

[ijacksparrow]

But we aren't talking about trying to make her popular, or giving her a push. We are talking about making her the Marvel flagship. Akin to Captain America or Ironman in the MCU.

Give her the Wolverine role in Avengers, a proper marketing push, amazing covers and an A list artist to pair up with Stephanie Hans and watch her become a flagship character then. Dude, she's controversial as hell and an assassin. A cosmic assassin. I agree that making her a Guardians related character makes more sense with the type of stories she can usually can go for, but make her have a debt with the Avengers or something. Seriously, it can work.

Carol is far more popular and successful than Angela. However Carol is indeed boring imo. I keep picking up her series hoping for something different, but each time I get bored.

Carol might be popular and successful inside the Marvel Universe. She might be popular and successful with "top 40 lists" and whatever. But something is obviously missing, if not she'd be the breakout character and not Ms. Marvel or Jane Thor. What I'm saying is that Angela brings something completely new and fresh to the table unlike any other of Marvel's flagship players, and the bad assery she's capable of would make her popular if Marvel is interested on making her breakout. The very first thing that I'd do is get her into the Avengers and basically make her the Wolverine of the team. There's room for a Logan type of character in the Marvel Earth 616 universe right now, with Logan being dead and X-23 getting a non-lethal rule.

[Mark Thorson]

The most exciting thing to ever happen with Angela was the legal battle between Gaiman and McFarlane. Marvel didn't make her boring, she just is.

[Michael Watkins]

What is this. I wouldn't even put Angela in like TOP 30 of "Most Iconic/Popular/Liked Female Characters of Marvel" , heck, 40.

While Carol would be on top 3 for sure.

Mind you this is not a personal list. I'm being objective.

So I don't see the point at all. Carol is clearly way more successful than Angela IN. EVERY. WAY. POSSIBLE.

agreed. I only know of Angela because several issues of her book are in the quarter bins at my LCS. i'm not even sure why they incorporated her into Thor's world. it certainly didn't help him.

[Michael Watkins]

in a shallow sense, it should be Carol because she's the most representative of the Marvel Universe. she's real and flawed; like the Universe itself. she's an American in an U.S-centric universe. she has 'Marvel' in her codename. she's been around a long time. she's been an Avenger for a long time in an Avengers-centric universe. you don't even have to like the character to recognize her as important.

[ijacksparrow]

So then a character is only interesting if they have "pew pew" powers? Really?

Natasha is more than "just a spy". She is a character with an interesting background and constantly struggling with her dark past, that is able to find solutions without the use of violence and only counting with her wits. And when she has to fight, she is totally bad-ass.

I agree that Tasha is easily one of the most interesting characters both in Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I actually think that after so many fans screaming at the top of their lungs for a Black Widow film, we might actually get one by Phase 4, but it's crazy how much time they wait for it. Marvel Studios is at an unique position with her that they can make a grea sci-fi spy thriller that could make front to something like James Bond with a budget relatively smaller than their usual productions. There's a demand and people love her. I'd go nuts with Feige announcing that she's getting her own movie for 2018 or something at this SDCC, but I doubt that will happen.

Different times, and total lack of comparative data mean we could argue the toss on that, it would all come down to trusting Diamond figures to actually be reflective of sales for Marvel. But DeConnick's run was a success by any objective measure and that is not supposed to reflect on any previous run.

We clearly have very different tastes in costume design. The Daniel Wonder Woman design is just horrid to my eyes. Overly busy, meaningless features and an attempt to keep naked thighs to please older fans. Nothing about what she is wearing says clothing or uniform. Nothing about the design is clean or representative of character.

I love how Wonder Woman's costume looks just like the Gal Gadot's one, which is one of the very few things that BvS nailed. And I don't understand this obsession with covering character's skins, especially ones like Wonder Woman and Angela. I mean, I don't see anyone complaining about Kratos showing skin, for example. Or Conan. Or Khal Drogo. Hell, add Momoa's Aquaman and Namor to that list too. What's wrong with Wonder Woman thighs? What's wrong with Kratos thighs?

[JKtheMac]

I have nothing against anybody's thighs. I don't trust a costume design that pretends to be a skirt but cuts the hem so that it reveals thigh anyway. It is a cop out. Either go with the old look of gym briefs or go with a skirt. Don't pretend to do one thing but really do the other.

[JKtheMac]

This America Chavez design by Mckelvie illustrates my point. You can get away with revealing if it fits the character and it is done in with style.

ac.jpg

I acknowledge that this approach may not work for WW and I think Mckelvie's own attempts to design her costume are not great.

[Agent Z]

I agree that Tasha is easily one of the most interesting characters both in Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I actually think that after so many fans screaming at the top of their lungs for a Black Widow film, we might actually get one by Phase 4, but it's crazy how much time they wait for it. Marvel Studios is at an unique position with her that they can make a grea sci-fi spy thriller that could make front to something like James Bond with a budget relatively smaller than their usual productions. There's a demand and people love her. I'd go nuts with Feige announcing that she's getting her own movie for 2018 or something at this SDCC, but I doubt that will happen.



I love how Wonder Woman's costume looks just like the Gal Gadot's one, which is one of the very few things that BvS nailed. And I don't understand this obsession with covering character's skins, especially ones like Wonder Woman and Angela. I mean, I don't see anyone complaining about Kratos showing skin, for example. Or Conan. Or Khal Drogo. Hell, add Momoa's Aquaman and Namor to that list too. What's wrong with Wonder Woman thighs? What's wrong with Kratos thighs?

Compare the number of male characters who show skin to the number of female characters who do and you can see why people prefer Wonder Woman and Angela covered up.