The case for Angela as Marvel's flagship superheroine or why Captain Marvel hasn't catched on so far

[Hrist]

Oh come on Squirrel Girl and Spider-gwen aint ever going to be top dog.

What does "top dog" mean? Do you think Squirrel Girl and Spider-Gwen aren't being pushed?

[simbob4000]

On the Carol Danvers "push"— it didn't begin with the Jamie McKelvie redesign or the DeConnick relaunch, imo. It at least goes back to House of M, which featured an alternate universe where Carol was Captain Marvel and the premier heroine in all the land. That launched a new ongoing Ms. Marvel book with the initial premise of Carol trying to make herself into an "A-List" hero, pretty meta, establishing a theme for Carol discussion. That book lasted 50 issues, which is not a bad number, and certainly helps explain why Marvel keeps trying to make a Carol book stick.

Originally Marvel tried to push Carol as a heroine with connections to the up-and-coming Avengers franchise and the more popular X-books. These days, the tide has turned and Carol is a link between the trendy cosmic stuff and the now-premier Avengers franchise. It also helped that writers like Bendis grew up reading the late 70s-early 80s comics where Carol was previously popular— characters from the same era like Jessica Drew and Luke Cage have also featured prominently under Bendis.

Anyway, the point is that the decision to push Carol has actually been several decisions, going back more than a decade, some of them via editorial fiat and some creative choice. In the time that Marvel has been pushing Carol, they've relaunched Black Panther and Moon Knight a whole bunch of times, as well as multiple She-Hulk books, multiple Black Widow books, multiple Spider-Woman books, &c &c. Carol hasn't kept them from trying to push other female characters, like Angela or Gwen Stacy or Squirrel Girl. Over this long Carol Danvers push Carol's obviously been reworked and repitched, but so have a lot of other characters, including ones we accept as "A-List" unconditionally. Marvel changes its approach based on what it thinks is popular and will sell. Carol has connections to mutants, the Kree, the Avengers, and feminist themes, all of which have been hot at one time or another, but I think these connections which she's built over time are evidence more of her durability as a character than evidence of her flimsiness. After all, every superhero is a patchwork that goes through phases of characterization.

I do think that Marvel's attempts at putting Carol at the center of their events is hampering her as a solo character. Every ongoing gets derailed for some kind of tie-in after a few issues. It probably helps keep sales up but it's not great as a creative direction.

The X-Men thing wasn't a push from Marvel, that's just Chris Claremont.

[Hrist]

The X-Men thing wasn't a push from Marvel, that's just Chris Claremont.

I don't mean that Carol's connection's with the X-men was made up to push her as Marvel's iconic lady. That obviously came about because Chris Claremont brought her into the X-Books where he could keep everyone else from writing her post-Avengers #200.

But in the mid-2000s, after House of M, when they launched Ms. Marvel vol 2, they definitely played up her X-connections, in the same way they play up her cosmic connections now. Or the same way DeConnick's run channeled the original pop feminist themes of Ms Marvel v1. The point is this is all stuff that existed in Carol before that then gets brought in when it suits the current zeitgeist.

[simbob4000]

What does "top dog" mean? Do you think Squirrel Girl and Spider-Gwen aren't being pushed?

I wouldn't say either of those characters has gotten a push in the same kind of away Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel has been since 2006. Their comics seem to have kind of just happened organically, the Ms. Marvel one seems more like a play to comic fans sense of character hierarchy and nostalgia...even if that nostalgia wasn't something they personally experienced. It was like: Hey look, remember Ms. Marvel, she's an "important" Marvel character, she's got Marvel in her name. And it did seem kind of cool they were trying to do something with that character back then.

Spider-Gwen happened after being introduced and turning out to be a hit. Squirrel Girl got another shot after years of people on the internet rediscovering this weird Marvel character.

[Hrist]

I wouldn't say either of those characters has gotten a push in the same kind of away Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel has been since 2006. Their comics seem to have kind of just happened organically, the Ms. Marvel one seems more like a play to comic fans sense of character hierarchy and nostalgia...even if that nostalgia wasn't something they personally experienced. It was like: Hey look, remember Ms. Marvel, she's an "important" Marvel character, she's got Marvel in her name. And it did seem kind of cool they were trying to do something with that character back then.

Spider-Gwen happened after being introduced and turning out to be a hit. Squirrel Girl got another shot after years of people on the internet rediscovering this weird Marvel character.

Or Squirrel Girl got a shot after meta-humor books like Deadpool took off and that stuff could go viral with the development of a comics community on tumblr that also skewed younger and more female. Spider-Gwen is another attempt at cashing in on that same new audience ++ DC's Batgirl. And they've further tried to combine these variant cover phenomenons by launching a Gwenpool book. What does "organic" mean, here? Sometimes Marvel has a surprise hit on its hands (and I think you could say that happened with Spider-Gwen) but then it will spend resources trying to capitalize on that momentum.

Marvel's definitely trying to make Captain Marvel happen, but they're also trying to make a bunch of other stuff happen. Their vision for Captain Marvel these days involves a lot of stupid crossover events. Their vision for Squirrel Girl involves a deliberatively quirky aesthetic, steady creative team and a self-contained book, making it more accessible in TPB form. I think they're really trying to hit school libraries with that one. (See also: Moon Girl & DD.) They're also seeding Doreen into team books to promote her solo. I don't think any of these moves are uncalculated; making a comic book is a deliberate process.

I do think Carol has been pushed as "central" to the ongoing events of the MU, so she's one of the seven or so characters who regularly appear in big summer crossovers. She's not the only one being promoted this way, they've built up Tony and the Inhumans over the years in a similar fashion. But I don't think "putting them in the middle of every crossover" is the only way Marvel pushes characters. Like, they've been trying to make Moon Knight happen for years, but they see that property as more of a self-contained prestige title like Daredevil than a central superhero title like Avengers. So they promote Moon Knight by giving him creators like Warren Ellis and Bendis/Maleev until we just expect a new Moon Knight title with every wave. They're pushing Black Widow in a similar way. IMO, this approach leads to more creative freedom & better stories than the one they're using for Carol, but I'm not sure it's less pushy.

[KingsLeadHat]

Angela is amusing to me because the only appeal of the character seems to be her connection with her creator, Neil Gaiman. Marvel most likely could never get Gaiman to write a regular ongoing title (I think Gaiman's far too "big" for that sort of thing at this point) so they buy one of his old Spawn characters from him. People would care if Gaiman was writing, say, Doctor Strange or Thor, but I don't see that anyone really cares about this characters without the Gaiman connection.

[butterflykyss]

Marvel's flagship heroine for the longest time was Storm, but then the X-Men fell from grace, and they've tried anointing Carol. It's not working though. Captain Marvel just isn't "happening" with audiences.

Jean Grey, Sue Storm (who by all rights should be Marvel's "First Lady"), She-Hulk, Janet Van Dyne all have loyal fanbases and long histories behind them, but Marvel hasn't seen fit to do anything constructive with them for years. For some like Jean and Sue, it's been decades.



Oh the irony that Kamala Khan and Spider-Gwen have bigger stars than Carol. Kamala, sporting Carol's old namesake and Carol being Kamala's idol. And Spider-Gwen, an old character with a new direction.

yes im not sure why they are pushing her.. her series always tanks and the character imo is boring imo. i really wish that marvel/fox would resolve things as i think if their dynamic were more amicable they would do more to promote storm.

and im not sure who angela is if that says anything about her being the superheroine of marvel. :/

[Carabas]

Her look doesn't stand out from the crowd, it was just one of many new costume updates that was meant to be more "real", which was getting to be extremely boring by the time they gave her what looked like a new version of Marvelman's costume.

Really?

I always thought her old look was just generic fetish-wear that would make her look just like an extra in some settings.

[simbob4000]

Really?

I always thought her old look was just generic fetish-wear that would make her look just like an extra in some settings.

Nope, turns out you thought wrong. It was a pretty simple superhero costume that was still striking and had a nice simple symbol worked into it that looked great.

[Wiccan]

The design of her Ms Marvel costume is fine. The problem is how it was oftenly draw.

[simbob4000]

Or Squirrel Girl got a shot after meta-humor books like Deadpool took off and that stuff could go viral with the development of a comics community on tumblr that also skewed younger and more female. Spider-Gwen is another attempt at cashing in on that same new audience ++ DC's Batgirl. And they've further tried to combine these variant cover phenomenons by launching a Gwenpool book. What does "organic" mean, here? Sometimes Marvel has a surprise hit on its hands (and I think you could say that happened with Spider-Gwen) but then it will spend resources trying to capitalize on that momentum.

Marvel's definitely trying to make Captain Marvel happen, but they're also trying to make a bunch of other stuff happen. Their vision for Captain Marvel these days involves a lot of stupid crossover events. Their vision for Squirrel Girl involves a deliberatively quirky aesthetic, steady creative team and a self-contained book, making it more accessible in TPB form. I think they're really trying to hit school libraries with that one. (See also: Moon Girl & DD.) They're also seeding Doreen into team books to promote her solo. I don't think any of these moves are uncalculated; making a comic book is a deliberate process.

I do think Carol has been pushed as "central" to the ongoing events of the MU, so she's one of the seven or so characters who regularly appear in big summer crossovers. She's not the only one being promoted this way, they've built up Tony and the Inhumans over the years in a similar fashion. But I don't think "putting them in the middle of every crossover" is the only way Marvel pushes characters. Like, they've been trying to make Moon Knight happen for years, but they see that property as more of a self-contained prestige title like Daredevil than a central superhero title like Avengers. So they promote Moon Knight by giving him creators like Warren Ellis and Bendis/Maleev until we just expect a new Moon Knight title with every wave. They're pushing Black Widow in a similar way. IMO, this approach leads to more creative freedom & better stories than the one they're using for Carol, but I'm not sure it's less pushy.

Only they aren't, because Spider-Gwen was introduced and people went crazy for her, so why wouldn't Marvel give that character a shot in their own title? She showed up in a Spider-Man event comic, people seemed to love her, she got a title the next year. That would be organic. And people had been kind of going crazy for Squirrel Girl on the internet for years now. Squirrel Girl was probably the kind of character that Marvel was getting weird pitches for, for a number of years before this new title.

I'm not really sure why you keep saying Danvers isn't the only one Marvel keeps trying to make happen. I'm not sure anyone in this thread is saying she is. But it is kind of funny how long they keep trying to make her happen. We're kind of on ten years of Marvel trying to get people to buy she's a big player in Marvel now.

I'm not really sure Warren Ellis doing Moon Knight is them trying to push Moon Knight, seems like a pretty natural, although belated, extension of his far too short run on Secret Avengers. The way Marvel uses Ellis now is like how Marvel and DC used to use brand new people they're kind of just testing out.

Given how big Black Widow got during The Ultimates, and then later because of the movies, I'd say Marvel kind of weirdly hasn't given her really any push.

[dreyga2000]

What do you mean Black Widow hasn't gotten a push??? She has got 3 ongoings since the Avenger Movie , her own merchandise, is a starring character of the Avengers cartoon, heavily featured in multiple titles... Etc. This goes on.

[Carabas]

I'm not really sure Warren Ellis doing Moon Knight is them trying to push Moon Knight, seems like a pretty natural, although belated, extension of his far too short run on Secret Avengers. The way Marvel uses Ellis now is like how Marvel and DC used to use brand new people they're kind of just testing out.

I think writers like Warren Ellis just like a smaller books that in no way or shape matter to the greater Marvel Universe and are event-proof.

[Carabas]

Nope, turns out you thought wrong. It was a pretty simple superhero costume that was still striking and had a nice simple symbol worked into it that looked great.

Black latex opera gloves. Black latex leotard. Black latex tigh-high, high-heeled boots.
The only element of the costume that she didn't buy at a fetish shop is maybe the sash.

[ed2962]

Squirrel Girl does ok in trade.