The case for Angela as Marvel's flagship superheroine or why Captain Marvel hasn't catched on so far

[JudicatorPrime]

I missed it. When did Marvel decide that Carol would get that push as the First Lady of Marvel, and why, specifically, did they choose her? Can someone fill me in?

[Digifiend]

2011, probably. She had her own Ms. Marvel book, which ran from 2006 to 2010 (Just before Civil War, up to the fall of the Dark Avengers - Moonstone even took over the book for a few issues when Carol was supposedly dead, which is when the logo later assigned to Kamala was first used). After the loss of her solo book, Carol only appeared in New Avengers in Heroic Age. Then in Marvel Now! 2012, they gave her the Captain Marvel identity and her own book again.

As for why she was chosen? She's not Fantastic Four, is more closely related to the Avengers than the X-Men (though has been on both teams) - which is why Storm and Invisible Woman weren't chosen, they didn't want their number one woman to be someone they couldn't give a movie - and she was a card carrying hero (Black Widow, a former Soviet spy, is not).

[Agent Z]

Carol brings little to the able that Wonder Woman, Buffy and so many others have already bought to the table.

It's not a knock on her but there is a reason folks gravitate Storm, Ms Marvel, Black Widow, Jessica Jones, Rey, Hunger Games girl, crazy Harley, Nutty Squirrel Girl & Faith.

A military female has been done to death (thank you Stargate, Star Trek Voyager & GI Joe).

So now it's Carol's turn and folks are burned out on it.

If Marvel wants a top female they have to look beyond her. Heck Sue Storm-Richards would be better-the wife, mother and heroine.

With the exception of Squirrel Girl and Faith none of those female characters really bring anything new to the table though.

[ed2962]

I missed it. When did Marvel decide that Carol would get that push as the First Lady of Marvel, and why, specifically, did they choose her? Can someone fill me in?

I don't think Marvel ever actually did decide that Carol would be their premiere heroine. It's mostly fans talking/speculating/misinterpreting her KSD relaunches.

[electr1cgoblin]

I don't think Marvel ever actually did decide that Carol would be their premiere heroine. It's mostly fans talking/speculating/misinterpreting her KSD relaunches.

I'd assume that they are letting the movies dictate the comic policies, like they pretty much are everywhere else. In other words, the second that they decided the first Marvel movie to feature female hero was to be CAPTAIN MARVEL, that's the second they decided to make her the primary female comics hero.

I dunno. I really like Carol, or did back in the day, but of all the Marvel superheroines, she seems like one of the least known to the public. They are really going to have to market her. Then again, it worked with the Guardians, against all odds, so maybe it'll work here, too.

[Wellman]

I don't think Marvel ever actually did decide that Carol would be their premiere heroine. It's mostly fans talking/speculating/misinterpreting her KSD relaunches.

Nope, there indeed has been internal pushes to have her as the leading female hero for the company.

I personally think the biggest might have been around House of M which I think is the time they had her take back the Ms. Marvel title instead of previously set up moniker of Warbird. Before that, Marvel never really needed a leading female, although She-Hulk (which may be tied up with the Hulk movie nonsense), Storm and Sue Storm-Richards (both of whom are Fox related movie properities) seemed the most likely. Then came the success of the movies and much bigger expectations for the company to expand the brand. While certain parties in the upper ranks probably still didn't think a female hero leading a movie would be necessary, you could see Marvel start try a solid female lead they could push. Ms. Marvel, who would later be rebranded Captain Marvel just made the most sense, she was powerful, long history but nothing that couldn't be simplified and shared the company name. The biggest hurdle would be that she like She-Hulk could be considered a female version of a male hero but giving her the title of Captain Marvel fixes that to a large degree by having her now something of legacy to the original instead of just a female counter part. It also helps that previous Captain Marvel runs with different leads while varying in quality never reached the a sizeable impact.

But the renaming is just part of it, soon after you started to see her interact more with other characters with increased promotions on her team ups, solo book relaunches and if the fact that she had a movie announced for a minute before MCU darling Black Widow wasn't the tip that Marvel wants her as their lead female hero, the fact that they put her in charge of one of the factions in Civil War II, despite its quality or lack of, should tell you she is the one.


Really at this point, even if you don't want her to be the flapship superheroine, it will take a while for anyone outside of Squirrel Girl to unseat her given the current climate and how slowly Marvel can react when their preferred shifts are not well received.

[ed2962]

Nope, there indeed has been internal pushes to have her as the leading female hero for the company.

I personally think the biggest might have been around House of M which I think is the time they had her take back the Ms. Marvel title instead of previously set up moniker of Warbird. Before that, Marvel never really needed a leading female, although She-Hulk (which may be tied up with the Hulk movie nonsense), Storm and Sue Storm-Richards (both of whom are Fox related movie properities) seemed the most likely. Then came the success of the movies and much bigger expectations for the company to expand the brand. While certain parties in the upper ranks probably still didn't think a female hero leading a movie would be necessary, you could see Marvel start try a solid female lead they could push. Ms. Marvel, who would later be rebranded Captain Marvel just made the most sense, she was powerful, long history but nothing that couldn't be simplified and shared the company name. The biggest hurdle would be that she like She-Hulk could be considered a female version of a male hero but giving her the title of Captain Marvel fixes that to a large degree by having her now something of legacy to the original instead of just a female counter part. It also helps that previous Captain Marvel runs with different leads while varying in quality never reached the a sizeable impact.

But the renaming is just part of it, soon after you started to see her interact more with other characters with increased promotions on her team ups, solo book relaunches and if the fact that she had a movie announced for a minute before MCU darling Black Widow wasn't the tip that Marvel wants her as their lead female hero, the fact that they put her in charge of one of the factions in Civil War II, despite its quality or lack of, should tell you she is the one.


Really at this point, even if you don't want her to be the flapship superheroine, it will take a while for anyone outside of Squirrel Girl to unseat her given the current climate and how slowly Marvel can react when their preferred shifts are not well received.

But for all the reasons you listed, Carol makes almost the least sense to push as "the main female hero." She's an obscure character. Her backstory is really convoluted. She's spin-off of an even more obscure character. It's hard for me to believe management sat around a table and thought that these traits make her their best bet for a female mascot.

Don't get me wrong, I like Carol a lot. But Marvel continuing to use a character that has a fan base isn't the same as same as pushing her to be their premiere female hero.

[Mike82]

But for all the reasons you listed, Carol makes almost the least sense to push as "the main female hero." She's an obscure character. Her backstory is really convoluted. She's spin-off of an even more obscure character. It's hard for me to believe management sat around a table and thought that these traits make her their best bet for a female mascot.

Don't get me wrong, I like Carol a lot. But Marvel continuing to use a character that has a fan base isn't the same as same as pushing her to be their premiere female hero.

Seriously? Like, how did you come to that conclusion? Take away mutants, the Sue Storm, Carol Danvers is the best bet. Unlike She-Hulk, you wouldn't have to worry about Carol being overshadowed by her male counterpart. Mar-Vell is dead. She's not that obscure. Scott Lang and GOTG are more obscure, yet those movies were made.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I really don't think Angela will ever be the flagship super heroine of the Marvel Universe for one simple reason: she actually didn't debut in the Marvel Universe.

[ed2962]

Seriously? Like, how did you come to that conclusion? Take away mutants, the Sue Storm, Carol Danvers is the best bet. Unlike She-Hulk, you wouldn't have to worry about Carol being overshadowed by her male counterpart. Mar-Vell is dead. She's not that obscure. Scott Lang and GOTG are more obscure, yet those movies were made.

You might be misunderstanding my point. I wasn't saying that there's something wrong or unlikely that they're making a movie about Carol Danvers...I'm saying it's unlikely that Joe Q, Tom Brevoort, and Axel Alonso got together with other Marvel execs and declared "we need a flagship heroine and we mandate it will be Carol Danvers."

Look at it this way, roughly around the same time they started using Carol again, they brought back the Punisher. Punisher has had probably as many relaunches during the same amount of time and has already been in a couple of movies. Is Marvel therefore trying to make Frank Castle their flagship male character?

[Holt]

If Marvel wants a top female they have to look beyond her. Heck Sue Storm-Richards would be better-the wife, mother and heroine.

Sue Storm Richards is never gonna get a push until Fox coughs up her movie rights. As others said, this isn't about comics. Comics are chump change in the grand scheme of things. This is about them wanting to push a character as a mainstream brand complete with a movie, toys, and TV and video game appearances. That's how Marvel works nowadays. Nothing just about comics anymore.

The fact that her comics don't sell very well is utterly irrelevant to Disney because the comics are a tiny part of what they're actually doing.

You might be misunderstanding my point. I wasn't saying that there's something wrong or unlikely that they're making a movie about Carol Danvers...I'm saying it's unlikely that Joe Q, Tom Brevoort, and Axel Alonso got together with other Marvel execs and declared "we need a flagship heroine and we mandate it will be Carol Danvers."

Look at it this way, roughly around the same time they started using Carol again, they brought back the Punisher. Punisher has had probably as many relaunches during the same amount of time and has already been in a couple of movies. Is Marvel therefore trying to make Frank Castle their flagship male character?

I'd say it wasn't initially, for sure. They'd been bandying about her name for a potential movie for a long while (as they did with a LOT of other characters, so that in itself is nothing unique). It became a really big visible deal as the movies began getting increasingly criticized for the lack of female superheroes, which made them finally announcing that they were doing Captain Marvel as a movie sound like some huge game changer.

[Crimz]

As many have said Marvel won't use characters who's movies are owned by other companies (no X ladies or Invisible Woman). Or characters that would only be compared to their male counterpart (so no She Hulk).
And they have to be superpowered ( so no Black Widow or Elektra). That only leaves Carol as the only feasible choice. Angela is too new to Marvel and even more unknown than Carol, so she is not a valid choice either.

Honestly I am fine with Carol being pushed as Marvels lead female. I wouldn't want Sue to take that spot, as being a lead character can have problems too. Lead characters are in almost all events and are in multiple books. That leads to 'too many cooks in the kitchen', there would several slightly different interpretations of the same character. And sometimes overexposure, like with Wolverine before he died. He was in everything, and it put many off the character.

There is the issue with the idea that there can only be one female lead, yet multiple male ones. But that's another discussion in itself. Might make a thread about it if I could be bothered.

[Captain Craig]

I'm not reading all 18 pages of this thread. I'll just state what's likely been stated before.
There are really only about 4-5 candidates up for debate as "The" Marvel Flagship Superheroine and Carol Danvers isn't one of them no matter how hard they keep pushing her(movie included).

In what I feel is the order:
Black Widow
Storm
Susan Richards
She-Hulk Jennifer Walters
Jessica Drew Spider-woman

Carol was much, much more interesting as Ms.Marvel but her series falter time after time as Captain Marvel.
Angela is NEVER EVER EVER going to be in contention in a serious discussion to be the Flagship Heroine---EVER. It's a joke she's even been incorporated.

[ed2962]

I like Jessica Drew and lot and have been enjoying the new series, but there's no way she's in the running to be a "flagship" character.

[Captain Craig]

She is way over Angela, you wouldn't argue that would you?