The case for Angela as Marvel's flagship superheroine or why Captain Marvel hasn't catched on so far

[GrandEleven]

I can't really see Angela as a "sidekick." She doesn't really strike me as that type. She's too independent for it. Occasional ally to Thor, sure, but only on occasion.

I meant more of a story sense than actual sidekick. I'm sure she'd see it as a partnership of convenience. But I think in general she needed time to develop byond what she was in spawn: eye candy.

Of course, Angela being gay is undoubtedly a part of why Marvel has so little interest in pushing her. They allowed Bennett to out her as gay because they'd already decided they didn't care about her. If they'd had any real plans for her, they never would've allowed Bennett to make it explicit that Angela and Sera are lovers. Because Marvel remains largely homophobic.

I would have thought Sera being transgender was the bigger reason. Honestly I think Bennett just crammed too much political opinion into that comic and that drove it under (see what you did? You made me go there). It wasn't just that Angela was gay, it wasn't just that sera was transgender, it wasn't just that there was a strong anti-patriarchy/pro-feminist message, it wasn't just that the final issue literally classified differing viewpoints as a evil sin that fuels the final villain, it's that Bennett crammed all of it in at once. I really enjoyed the comic, don't get me wrong (still my Avatar after-all), but there were issues where I went "really, we have to go there again? Can't I just see her take over Hel for a bit?"

Actually I think the secret wars short they did told in folklore style as told by Sera was brilliant. I could have lived with that for a few years. Sera lightened up the serious Angela tone marvelously.

I think the Queen Of Hel look was always supposed to be temporary, since it was obvious she had no interest in being the Queen long term. And after she was done with that, she immediately went back to the silver armor, so I think Bennett probably wanted that to be her new default look. Too bad it didn't stick apparently, because it was not only a very good look, but it had meaning behind it. It wasn't a redesign just because; there was an entire backstory and representation of who Angela is that defined that costume, and it was great.

I agree with all of this. Merely pointing out that they clearly played with her look a bit and quite frankly .. I _loved_ that Queen of Hel look. Very warrior princess, even if they reverted that hela-esque helm back to her original.

[GrandEleven]

Now that Carol's movie is coming, she will NEVER go back to her old costume.

While you're right, I confess to not liking it in the slightest. If anything my love of Angela should confirm I like my costumes "loud".

[Wiccan]

While you're right, I confess to not liking it in the slightest. If anything my love of Angela should confirm I like my costumes "loud".

Well the black costume is also really simple though? Honestly I don't have a problem with it. In fact I like it just fine. Carol's appearance was what made me first interested on her. What I hate is the people who complain about the new one(s) and ask for it to come back.

[Jabare]

the goddess

[Green Knight]

Why are people saying that Carol is popular? Her sales figures don’t bear that out. I’m looking at the ICV2 Top 300 list for February 2018, and Captain Marvel was #155, with 11,499 sales. And that number doesn’t even reflect how many issues were sold to actual customers. Those are sales to retailers (And Marvel often sends more than retailers ask for to pad those numbers), so that number doesn’t remotely translate to sales to actual customers, meaning that many of those comics end up sitting on the stands. So Captain Marvel likely only sells a few thousand comics every month, at best. So the idea that she’s popular is totally ludicrous, because the sales numbers don’t bear that out. To put that into perspective, that’s only 963 more issues than the number sold for Iceman, and Iceman’s series was cancelled.

As for her current costume... the less said about it the better. Suffice to say, it’s hardly on par with Spider-Man, Superman, etc. Her costume is definitely not iconic.

[Tiamatty]

I meant more of a story sense than actual sidekick. I'm sure she'd see it as a partnership of convenience. But I think in general she needed time to develop byond what she was in spawn: eye candy.

It would've been nice if she'd been a more recurring character in Thor, but I still think Angela and Thor wouldn't be inclined to spend much time together. (Also, like I said, she wouldn't have been gay if Bennett and Gillen hadn't gotten to write her solo. If Marvel had seriously intended to push her, and if they'd let any other writer define her, I 100% guarantee she would've been straight, and Sera wouldn't have existed in the first place.)

I would have thought Sera being transgender was the bigger reason. Honestly I think Bennett just crammed too much political opinion into that comic and that drove it under (see what you did? You made me go there). It wasn't just that Angela was gay, it wasn't just that sera was transgender, it wasn't just that there was a strong anti-patriarchy/pro-feminist message, it wasn't just that the final issue literally classified differing viewpoints as a evil sin that fuels the final villain, it's that Bennett crammed all of it in at once. I really enjoyed the comic, don't get me wrong (still my Avatar after-all), but there were issues where I went "really, we have to go there again? Can't I just see her take over Hel for a bit?"

Sure, the book was definitely pushing a message. Maybe it would've done better if Bennett had toned that down, but then again, there'd already been two volumes that didn't particularly push a political agenda. So I'm inclined to think Marvel was justified in letting Bennett, Jacinto, and Hans do whatever they damned well wanted to do, to hell with the whining of people who weren't buying the book anyway. That "unsolicited opinions about Israel" gag got more attention than the rest of the series ever had, more than the inclusion of an openly trans character, more than a same-sex romance. Also, I'm not sure what you mean about the final villain. The Faerie Queen Angela? She was fueled by anger and bitterness and mourning her lost love Serah.

Actually I think the secret wars short they did told in folklore style as told by Sera was brilliant. I could have lived with that for a few years. Sera lightened up the serious Angela tone marvelously.

Oh yeah, Sera was amazing. I loved her. I would kill to have her appearing in an ongoing again, with or without Angela. (Preferably with. But Sera is amazing. Those puns! Sera can only be written by someone with a love of wordplay.)

I agree with all of this. Merely pointing out that they clearly played with her look a bit and quite frankly .. I _loved_ that Queen of Hel look. Very warrior princess, even if they reverted that hela-esque helm back to her original.

Yep, her Queen of Hel look was, as the kids say, "lit." "Lit af," even. It was a great look, definitely my favourite that she had.

Why are people saying that Carol is popular? Her sales figures don’t bear that out. I’m looking at the ICV2 Top 300 list for February 2018, and Captain Marvel was #155, with 11,499 sales. And that number doesn’t even reflect how many issues were sold to actual customers. Those are sales to retailers (And Marvel often sends more than retailers ask for to pad those numbers), so that number doesn’t remotely translate to sales to actual customers, meaning that many of those comics end up sitting on the stands. So Captain Marvel likely only sells a few thousand comics every month, at best. So the idea that she’s popular is totally ludicrous, because the sales numbers don’t bear that out. To put that into perspective, that’s only 963 more issues than the number sold for Iceman, and Iceman’s series was cancelled.

As for her current costume... the less said about it the better. Suffice to say, it’s hardly on par with Spider-Man, Superman, etc. Her costume is definitely not iconic.

Two things: First, physical floppy sales aren't everything. We don't know how she does outside the direct market. Digital, trades in book stores, libraries, all those things and more can make a different.

Second: I would argue that her current costume actually is on a par with Spider-Man and Superman. It's distinctive, it's easy to play around with while still keeping to the key details, it's striking, with bold, primary colours, that are balanced really well. It has an emblem that's easily recognizable and also easily marketable. It's one of the best designs I've ever seen. I've had issues with some of the modifications other artists have made to it, but that McKelvie design is damned close to perfect.

[Crimz]

Seeing as this turned into the "Carol costume thread". I have no problems with the current one except that it should be black and red instead of blue and red. There are tons of characters who do the blue and red combo that it bores me. Black and red would make her stand out better from all the other heroes in the blue/red combo imo and it takes inspiration from the costume the majority seem to love.

[GrandEleven]

Sure, the book was definitely pushing a message. Maybe it would've done better if Bennett had toned that down, but then again, there'd already been two volumes that didn't particularly push a political agenda. So I'm inclined to think Marvel was justified in letting Bennett, Jacinto, and Hans do whatever they damned well wanted to do, to hell with the whining of people who weren't buying the book anyway. That "unsolicited opinions about Israel" gag got more attention than the rest of the series ever had, more than the inclusion of an openly trans character, more than a same-sex romance. Also, I'm not sure what you mean about the final villain. The Faerie Queen Angela? She was fueled by anger and bitterness and mourning her lost love Serah.

I'm referring to the very beginning of the book. where the Faerie Queen starts punishing "the wicked" in the current realm and those who are singled out in the comic are all very clear right wing stereotypes.

[Tiamatty]

I'm referring to the very beginning of the book. where the Faerie Queen starts punishing "the wicked" in the current realm and those who are singled out in the comic are all very clear right wing stereotypes.

I don't know that I would agree with them being right-wing stereotypes. One is a guy who's condescending to a homeless man. It wasn't about a political position, it was classism. Another was, as the book calls him, "the Guy In Your MFA come to life." Again, not a political thing, just a guy being arrogant and entitled with absolutely no justification for it. And then, yeah, one was complaining about diversity. Though, a third time, that's not necessarily a political thing.

In all three cases, the problem wasn't their opinions, it was the behaviour. It was their hubris and their hate. And in all three cases, nothing they said was the tiniest bit unrealistic. A Wall Street type being condescending to a homeless person? Pretty sure that's a real thing. An aspiring writer yelling at restaurant employees? Shit, Bennett probably cribbed most of that guy's lines from people she'd seen behave like that. An ignorant jackass claiming England was entirely white in Shakespeare's time and complaining about diversity in a story? Holy shit, is that ever A Thing.

They're not right-wing stereotypes. They're jackass stereotypes.



Also: Re-reading bits of those issues to get a refresher on what happened was very enjoyable. Those two issues were so good. #6 was weird and fun, #7 was just beautiful and emotional. The 7 years Angela, Sera, and Leah spent together, in an illusion. Man. So good. Especially with Stephanie Hans doing the art for those pages, her art is gorgeous. I miss those three, so much. I wish we could get Leah meeting Illyana. Both of them deserve some happiness, and they would be a great couple. Goth relationship goals, for sure. Magic and mayhem and make-outs. I would 100% read that comic.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

The thing is Carol always had a revealing costume and it's arguable her popularity went down after drastic changes to costume and personality.

It's arguable it might be so.

[MajorHoy]

These days, could the Wasp possibly take the lead as "Marvel's flagship superheroine"?

[ed2962]

These days, could the Wasp possibly take the lead as "Marvel's flagship superheroine"?

Which one?

Movie Wasp has a chance with non-comic book fans I'd say.

[Wiccan]

These days, could the Wasp possibly take the lead as "Marvel's flagship superheroine"?

Obviously not considering that there are like 2/3 different ones from the movies to the comics.

[Captain M]

These days, could the Wasp possibly take the lead as "Marvel's flagship superheroine"?

Wasp brand is too much of a mess to build upon. If there was one Wasp among all media then yes, that would have been possible.

[Thor-Ul]

Black Widow have bigger chances.