So, What Was The Point Of The 616 MU's Demise?

[jackolover]

Hickman took the suggestion to write the little book about Nick Fury, in Secret Warriors, then, he headed over to the Fantastic Four in Dark Reign, and somehow it ended with the the Avengers in Secret Wars. So what was the point? The Big picture?

We know Hickman planted seeds for Nick Fury's Secret Warriors in the Italian SHIELD of antiquity, finishing with Laviathon destroyed, and Fury going the new SHIELD route with Howard Starks son, Tony, and Strucker taking Hydra another route to overthrow the World for revenge over WWII.

The world broke in Avengers #12.1, when Hank, Tony, and Beast experienced the tide flow over them, as space-time was broken in the Age of Ultron resolution. And from then on it triggered the Illuminati and Doom to be joined in a horror fest called Battleworld, a particular structure Doom had been part of in 1985 put together by the Beyonder. How poetic.

But what has come of it? The 616 was heading for destruction from the mid 2000's, and it just needed an added push from Marvel to produce the inevitable outcome? I thought the "Heroic Age", post-Seige, was supposed to be a rejuvenation, of the triumphant return of heroes, but instead it was a cynical banner, of a decaying, outmoded, reality? Was it replaced with a more resilient, and hopefully more suitable potential for growth, in ANAD?

That is the question. Because certainly, it looked like the descent into CIVIL WAR I, and all that followed, was designed to head towards Secret Wars, to wipe away that old world and produce the ANAD. "Heroic Age" in name only, was a period in Marvel, I felt, as being hollow and empty compared to the grandeur that came before in the Silver Age HA. It took a sudden shock in reality like AoU, to send the 616 hurling end over end into oblivion.

What was the point of the 616 MU, and it's demise?

Edit. The thrust of the arguments I made become pointless once the point was made that the 616 didn't change, and Secret Wars was just a branding change exercise. The new point then becomes Secret Wars was irrelevant, though an epic story.

[jackolover]

Well, the obvious benefit from the 616 is the movies. They were great.

But taking one example. Avengers Academy. That was like the precog example of CWII, where someone predicted these kids would become the next master super villains. Was Avengers Academy successful in turning potential villain kids into good guys?

Another benefit of the 616 to ANAD, is the groundwork of the iconic characters as templates to follow.

[Tiamatty]

Well, the main point was they thought it would be a great story. That's really the biggest thing. As a side benefit, it allowed the editors who disliked the 616 designation to finally get their way and eliminate it. So those editors liked that part.

As far as Heroic Age goes, it was just a branding. Same as Marvel Now! or All-New Marvel Now! or All-New All-Different Marvel or all the other brandings Marvel does routinely. There was an extended period of darkness, from Civil War to Dark Reign, and it ended with Siege, with everyone friends again and the heroes on top. But Heroic Age was never intended to be a permanent direction, because Marvel doesn't do permanent directions, because permanent directions are stifling and stagnant.

You keep harping on Heroic Age as though it meant something big. It didn't. It was a branding. None of the brandings actually mean anything. They're just ways of getting attention. They're ways of saying, "Hey! This is a good time to jump on!" You need to let go of the Heroic Age branding, because it has nothing to do with anything that happened after.

[jackolover]

With the start of Avengers Disassembled, and New Avengers, it portended a downward spiral of where this was all going to lead too. That was the end of Heroic Age. It just needed the full stop of Secret Wars to make it permanent. There were other factors in the FF and Wolverine, too, as well as the emergence of the fact the Illuminati had been interfering in history all along. But certainly, the end was approaching, when Maria Hill tried to nuke the New Avengers, and the POTUS tried to get her to do it a second time.

Not to be too negative, there were some positives to come out of this period, CWI onwards.

Here are some -

Stark, Richards, and Pyms inventiveness in CWI's 100 ideas
OMD was a success
General Ross as Red Hulk was sensational
The redemption of Maria Hill to a hero lover
Two YA's reunited with Wanda their mother
Hulk rejoining Avengers
Great new characters, Kamala, Jane Thor, Falcon Cap, Cho Hulk, Angela, Spider Gwen, Silk, Starbrand.

[jackolover]

One way of looking at the demise of the 616 is this:

It was a desperate ride they took, from CWI to its end, but eventually those at Marvel realised the 616 had just about run its course. They tried all sorts of sensational antics to see if it would make the Heroes viable, but eventually, (as new characters after new appeared), they couldn't populate this 616 with the same sort they did up till now.

Wiped clean, after Secret Wars, a new villa (ANAD) was created, and a different set of characters were mixed together to see how well they could last, if longer than the 616. It behoved of the creators to set in motion a continual emergence of new characters, that could superceded whatever 616 versions still existed. And it was hoped that when eventually, the new characters replaced the old, that this would be more viable in the long run. With new characters, it would take decades to tell all their stories to exhaustion, as it did for the 616.

[Tiamatty]

One way of looking at the demise of the 616 is this:

It was a desperate ride they took, from CWI to its end, but eventually those at Marvel realised the 616 had just about run its course. They tried all sorts of sensational antics to see if it would make the Heroes viable, but eventually, (as new characters after new appeared), they couldn't populate this 616 with the same sort they did up till now.

Wiped clean, after Secret Wars, a new villa (ANAD) was created, and a different set of characters were mixed together to see how well they could last, if longer than the 616. It behoved of the creators to set in motion a continual emergence of new characters, that could superceded whatever 616 versions still existed. And it was hoped that when eventually, the new characters replaced the old, that this would be more viable in the long run. With new characters, it would take decades to tell all their stories to exhaustion, as it did for the 616.

No. This is not what happened. It's not at all what happened. Hickman told them an idea for a story. Marvel liked the idea. So he told his story. That story was predicated on a simple idea: "Everything dies." Those two words were at the very core of his Avengers run. And in the end, almost everything did die. But this was all to get to the optimistic ending: Everything lives.

And it did. Everything was brought back, the same as it was before. This was not about "wiping the slate," or about "superceding" 616 characters. The characters in ANAD? They're the same characters from before Secret Wars. The same ones. The same Steve Rogers. The same Tony Stark. The same Kamala Khan. The same X-Men, the same Inhumans, the same Peter Parker, the same everyone. No one was replaced.

ANAD. WAS. BRANDING. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding.

How often does this need to be said before you understand? ANAD is branding. That's all it is. That's all it was ever intended to be. Just branding. Nothing more, nothing less, just branding, with no greater meaning behind it beyond being branding.

[Icefalcon]

ANAD. WAS. BRANDING. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding.

I feel like you're trying to tell everyone something

[BruceWayneJr.]

ANAD. WAS. BRANDING. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding.

Thank you for your service!

It's admirable that jacko is trying to find a greater context for all of these branding stunts, but that's all they are: stunts, to drive up sales of a bunch of comics that don't contribute to some kind of greater whole to collectors who buy every single "tie-in" issue.

[The Negative Zone]

ANAD. WAS. BRANDING. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding. It's branding.

But it was definitely a reboot.

[Nazrel]

But it was definitely a reboot.

No it wasn't.

All it did was get rid of the Ultimate universe, folded in Miles Morales, left a bunch of extra dimensional exiles, fragments, and cosmic cube shards about.

Still 616. Same universe, same history, same everything.

Edit: Wait, was that sarcasm? I can't tell if you were being derisive towards Tiamatty or the fact some people can't seem to grasp it wasn't a reboot.

[JKtheMac]

I disagree that ANAD is just branding. There was a very apparent move to shift up continuity, by bringing in characters that were not around before, dropping concepts and plot elements that the editors no longer liked, shifting the rules on things like time travel and cosmology and generally conducting a subtle, "most people won't notice" reboot.

Because I am not joking or being cynical when I declare it a reboot. This is a line in the sand for creators. If they want to ignore things from pre-secret wars then they can within reason because there is a big excuse that the universe has been recreated replacing the old universe.

As to whether this is anything to do with the Age of Heroes I have no idea. That era is outside my knowledge. I wasn't reading then. But the impression I get is the editors and writers are much more focused on creative, writer led stories now.

P.S. There seems to be a light hearted disagreement over the 616 designation, as the spider books are still defiantly using it despite the assertations of Brevoort.

[SuperiorIronman]

The point of Secret Wars was to tell a story. A cosmic horror story where almost everything died horribly.
ANAD was Marvel rebranding themselves and shoving out everything and the kitchen sink since they had no ongoings save for Starwars and needed to see what stuck with customers. It would be as good a time as any to shove out a ton of new #1's of a variety of titles, considering Marvel's diversity push and the want for certain kinds of books and certain characters. Secret Wars was a story, and simply what happened before the 8 month gap between then and ANAD.

Is it a reboot? No, its about as much of a reboot as the first Marvel Now was, just a bunch of new first issues. Nothing started over from the heroes first days on the job. It was just pulling everything together and pushed out 8 months so everyone has a new status quo, are far enough ahead to ignore plot points if writer don't want to use them, and everyone starts fresh.

[JKtheMac]

People will recoil from the idea that Marvel would reboot. It is almost a dirty word. But by every definition this is a reboot if you are prepared to take off your Marvel spectacles.

There is nothing incompatible with a reboot and Secret Wars being primarily a story and ANAD being a marketing campaign.

When Secret Wars was announced I was very unsure that Marvel would pull the reboot trigger but they have done and it was so subtle that everyone can deny it.

New universe, new underlying physics and metaphysics, and an editorial team that are prepared to let writers ignore parts of continuity in favour of story. Characters from multiple universes not just Ultimate co-existing. An actual re-jigging of the past to allow the Ultimate characters to exist as if they have always been there, a very strong hint that time travel has changed.

[gurkle]

People will recoil from the idea that Marvel would reboot. It is almost a dirty word. But by every definition this is a reboot if you are prepared to take off your Marvel spectacles.

There is nothing incompatible with a reboot and Secret Wars being primarily a story and ANAD being a marketing campaign.

When Secret Wars was announced I was very unsure that Marvel would pull the reboot trigger but they have done and it was so subtle that everyone can deny it.

New universe, new underlying physics and metaphysics, and an editorial team that are prepared to let writers ignore parts of continuity in favour of story. Characters from multiple universes not just Ultimate co-existing. An actual re-jigging of the past to allow the Ultimate characters to exist as if they have always been there, a very strong hint that time travel has changed.

All those things - ignoring continuity, characters from alternate universes coming in, tampering with people's memories - have been done before Secret Wars, and will be done again.

There just hasn't been any big shake-up because of Secret Wars. Things are mostly the same as they've always been.

[The Negative Zone]

No it wasn't.

All it did was get rid of the Ultimate universe, folded in Miles Morales, left a bunch of extra dimensional exiles, fragments, and cosmic cube shards about.

Still 616. Same universe, same history, same everything.

Edit: Wait, was that sarcasm? I can't tell if you were being derisive towards Tiamatty or the fact some people can't seem to grasp it wasn't a reboot.

Yes. It was sarcasm. Its annoys me to no end when someone says Secret Wars was a "reboot."