Detective Comics #936 discussion (SPOILERS!)

[KrustyKid]

Really enjoyed this issue. Can't wait for the next.

[Caivu]

You're right! I try to forget about that Batwoman arc... I don't think he knew her name until now, though.

I don't mind the fast pacing, but working with Clayface should've been a bigger deal for everyone involved. Just the fact that he's killed people before makes it weird that Bruce was so eager to bring him in.

She's famous around Gotham, so he would've recognized her.

The way I'm looking at Clayface is that Bruce is taking a calculated risk now that Clayface seems more tranquil and even regretful. It'd be a major gain to have someone like Clayface as an ally, and striking now while he's more malleable (so to speak) is ideal. Clayface might be being used as a lab rat for future reformation purposes on other villains who are tougher to crack. We'll see.

Cass is also a known murderer, don't forget. It's not an automatic deal-breaker.

[Stormcrow]

She's famous around Gotham, so he would've recognized her.

The way I'm looking at Clayface is that Bruce is taking a calculated risk now that Clayface seems more tranquil and even regretful. It'd be a major gain to have someone like Clayface as an ally, and striking now while he's more malleable (so to speak) is ideal. Clayface might be being used as a lab rat for future reformation purposes on other villains who are tougher to crack. We'll see.

Cass is also a known murderer, don't forget. It's not an automatic deal-breaker.

There's a big difference between Cassandra's one-time kill for which she immediately felt remorse and Clayface's history of murder for his own gain. Of course most of it was under Gregg Hurwitz when he was turning every villain he could get his hands on into a mass murderer, so we can definitely sweep that under the rug a bit. I get what Tynion is going for, but it's just been too easy for both Clayface and the team to adapt IMO.

[SneakyLookingSort]

Man that three week wait felt like months!

As I expected, Martinez's art did not disappoint! I've loved his work since Batman and Robin Eternal's Prague theater scenes so when I heard he was part of the Tec art team I was very pleased. Tynion's dialogue also felt less "sterile" this time. Clayface's comments about Batman getting beaten up were hilarious. Cass kicked ass. Steph was being Steph. Tim's still a nerd. Kate screwed up big time but no one's perfect.

Can't wait for the next issue!

[WhipWhirlwind]

I'm so conflicted about this. On the one hand, I think you're pretty much right that that's Tynion's biggest weakness as a writer, and it's partially to blame for my own pacing issues with the series. But at the same time I don't think it's that big of a problem. Maybe I'm just rationalizing things, but I can think up explanations for all these "problems" to the point where they cease to be an issue.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is pretty much where I'm at, but I do have an actual reason for not minding the hacking, and Tim and Steph being together. For the hacking, what did he have to lose? The bad guy is Kate's dad, who clearly doesn't want to lose Kate forever, as demonstrated by how they took down Cass non lethally. Worst case scenario he gets tranqued, best case scenario he he shuts down their suits/coms or does something with the environment to escape. Given Tim's prowess with computers its not unreasonable for him to think that would work.

As for Tim and Steph being together, according to the rules of rebirth they've likely got the spark that comes from having history but without the cautious "we've been down this road before" feeling from actually remembering said history. We saw some attraction at the end of eternal, so I don't think its just willing it to say they got together off panel.

I'll admit though, I have wanted this kind of book (Tim/Steph/Cass) since the new 52 began, more than any other. So while it does have its flaws, I really think its objectively good (if not great), so I'm on cloud 9.

[Maxpower00044]

I enjoyed the issue for the most part. Love the team dynamics, really love the art team, but I'm not too sold on Kane being a part of The Colony. To me, it tarnishes Elegy and the new 52 run a bit, because now I know that Jacob Kane wasn't as genuine as he made it seem he was. I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

[Caivu]

I enjoyed the issue for the most part. Love the team dynamics, really love the art team, but I'm not too sold on Kane being a part of The Colony. To me, it tarnishes Elegy and the new 52 run a bit, because now I know that Jacob Kane wasn't as genuine as he made it seem he was. I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

I don't know, he was never really genuine to start with, was he? He was lying about Beth during Elegy.

[Maxpower00044]

I don't know, he was never really genuine to start with, was he? He was lying about Beth during Elegy.

You definitely have a point there.

[dominus]

It bugs me partly because it's representative of a common flaw in Tynion's writing: He simply wills things to happen because he wants them to, rather than because it makes sense in the story for them to happen. It's inorganic. (See also the state of the Tim/Steph relationship.) This book has been some of his better work I've read, and I hate to see cracks start to show.

It's no big deal here, but that approach can lead to big disappointments down the road.

I don't mind the fast pacing, but working with Clayface should've been a bigger deal for everyone involved. Just the fact that he's killed people before makes it weird that Bruce was so eager to bring him in.

I'm so conflicted about this. On the one hand, I think you're pretty much right that that's Tynion's biggest weakness as a writer, and it's partially to blame for my own pacing issues with the series. But at the same time I don't think it's that big of a problem. Maybe I'm just rationalizing things, but I can think up explanations for all these "problems" to the point where they cease to be an issue.

I think I'd rather see things move along a *tad* quicker and not see stories dragged out for an entire year. They end up having a *lot* of extraneous stuff that seems to be there just to fatten up the eventual TPBs.

(When I was a kid, stories would fit into one issue, and occasionally take up two issues where there were guest stars or a major villain being used. Then 4-5 issues became the norm. Now, we get stories dragged out for months or more. Some have been pretty good, others have been a real let down. How many issues do you really need to tell a story now. 32? 52?)

[dominus]

I enjoyed the issue for the most part. Love the team dynamics, really love the art team, but I'm not too sold on Kane being a part of The Colony. To me, it tarnishes Elegy and the new 52 run a bit, because now I know that Jacob Kane wasn't as genuine as he made it seem he was. I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

I don't know, he was never really genuine to start with, was he? He was lying about Beth during Elegy.

I don't see him as the bad guy, just more of a big picture, following orders for the greater good, kind of guy. Not getting any sense of Ras Al Ghul duplicity out of him. The means to an end probably have lines he won't cross.

[Caivu]

I don't see him as the bad guy, just more of a big picture, following orders for the greater good, kind of guy. Not getting any sense of Ras Al Ghul duplicity out of him. The means to an end probably have lines he won't cross.

I agree. He's not evil, just doing what he thinks is right in a rather extreme way. And lying not out of malice, but protection, at least in his mind.

[WhipWhirlwind]

I agree. He's not evil, just doing what he thinks is right in a rather extreme way. And lying not out of malice, but protection, at least in his mind.

Even now he's not necessarily a bad guy, he's either working for a high level military unit or at worst a PMC. Neither of which are inherently evil, so we need to wait and see who he is gearing up to take on to really judge him.

And yeah, his dudes kicked the shit out of Batman, but if he's got government authority to do what he's trying to do and Batman's whole "MY CITY, MY RULES!" shtick is getting in the way of that I can see why they'd want him out of the picture.

[godisawesome]

I agree. He's great at character work but is really weak on the little details of plot and story. Actually the more I've thought about this issue the less I liked it and its all down to the flaws in Tynion's writing that are already showing. This is one of the better books he's done thus far and you can clearly see that he's learned some things over the years but this book could be so much better if he would pay as much attention to the plot as he does to the characters and their interactions. Like I said earlier this is a good book but if he did that it would be an excellent one.

I know you're a fan of Scott Lobdell's Red Hood writing, and I think you know that I'm not a fan of the man's writing in general. But I think when it comes to this issue and Lobdell's best, it's more a matter of each writer's strengths. Lobdell, especially in his better issues, is all about competently and quickly executing a plot in a somewhat breezy but well paced manner. Tynion, in his best stuff, really zeroes in on characters interacting and displaying their more complex elements.

Right now, Detective Comics has been 3 straight and pretty well balanced issues where internal conflict has been a much, much bigger focus than external conflict, and I think the Colony is specifically tailored to favor that reading. The Colony is a major threat right now because they have good Intel and resources, but they've also got several handicaps that serve to intentionally lessen some of the drama from their place as arc antagonists, in particular their desire to no lethally recruit and subdue our heroes and their outright statement that they have a bigger fish to fry. Their threat is intentionally lowered because we aren't supposed to be stupendously frightened for our heroes in a physical sense; our focus is being intentionally funneled and even kind of limited to Kate's search for how she's supposed to lead the team, Tim's similar attempt to start something new in Gotham, Clayface's turning over a new leaf, and the team proving it can cohesively work together.

It's all a major throwback to the old days where guys like Chuck Dixon would have Tim and Spoiler chase down some nameless, bluntly drawn hijackers who would be lucky to have one member with a barely memorable thug among them, where the focus was on Tim and Spoiler talking to each other. The issue is that this 'Tec arc is...an arc; it needs to read well as one cohesive story when it's finished up. The good news is it's going to be finished pretty quickly. The bad news is that there's still a lot of ways to screw it up as a massive story at the end. But that's the risk being taken; this is basically a prologue and introductory story being spread out over several issues, and it will ride or die on keeping a high quality throughout.

[WhipWhirlwind]

It's all a major throwback to the old days where guys like Chuck Dixon would have Tim and Spoiler chase down some nameless, bluntly drawn hijackers who would be lucky to have one member with a barely memorable thug among them, where the focus was on Tim and Spoiler talking to each other. The issue is that this 'Tec arc is...an arc; it needs to read well as one cohesive story when it's finished up. The good news is it's going to be finished pretty quickly. The bad news is that there's still a lot of ways to screw it up as a massive story at the end. But that's the risk being taken; this is basically a prologue and introductory story being spread out over several issues, and it will ride or die on keeping a high quality throughout.

How DARE you disrespect the Baffler that way!

But seriously, excellent description.

[Nite-Wing]

There's a big difference between Cassandra's one-time kill for which she immediately felt remorse and Clayface's history of murder for his own gain. Of course most of it was under Gregg Hurwitz when he was turning every villain he could get his hands on into a mass murderer, so we can definitely sweep that under the rug a bit. I get what Tynion is going for, but it's just been too easy for both Clayface and the team to adapt IMO.

No Clayface was great under Hurwitz pen he knew exactly what he was working with
Tynion imo doesn't seem to be aware that their were multiple clayfaces and the one from BTAS was based on Matt Hagen and not Basil
Tynion is doing a bit of ill informed white washing with Clayface presenting him as this tragic villain who got a bad break when originally he was just some jealous actor who got psychotic because someone else was going to play a role of his.
In a less pandery book Bruce would not trust a villain like this let alone place him around children.