How Well Do You Think The Renew Your Monthly Will Sell?

[VolcanikTiger86]

It's a way to indicate that what are you arguing is most likely to be correct. This may be an extreme comparison, but if "proof" was too much for me, then would it be better if I said it offered "proof beyond a reasonable doubt"? As someone who took jury duty last year, I'm also very familiar with the phrase "preponderance of evidence". Because even if the quotes do not 100% absolutely and unconditionally prove what I'm saying, they still offer enough evidence to the point that I don't see any point in insisting on there being wiggle room.

That’s not what you said, you said that the post would prove that clone saga’s intent was to remove the marriage and the only thing I got from it was that Howard Mackie said it entered the conversation but it was not the intent of the story when pitched. and he later said it was an ideal way to bring that end goal about. But MJS goes on to say It’s been twenty years people’s memories aren’t infallible and everyone in that room when the clone saga was discussed has their own perception of what happened But its safe to say how to get rid of the marriage and the clone saga are intertwined.
So basically from these quotes from two guys it would seem likely that I’m right but because its been so long I could be wrong because everyone has a different way of seeing things, pretty sure reasonable doubt could be argued.

I agree that the Clone Saga was more tasteful before it kept the marriage intact. However, my point remains that the story was still done with the intent of separating Spider-Man from marriage.

Which is something you can’t prove maybe it was or maybe while writing it and working on it they though hey we could do this by changing this a wee bit and do this which means as Howard Mackie said it wasn’t the intent of the story when it was pitched and they changed it at the final hour or even half way through. I think it all depends on how long they planned Spidey out in those days.

You repeatedly claim that I just miss the point,

Because you repeatedly give me the impression , example I say about new dynamics having Carlie be Peter’s Girlfriend and someone he works with on the Police now that dynamic is different if she is only his friend because the relationship is different because why in one he is single and in the other he is married. Better yet you could have Norah or Betty be Peter’s girlfriend/Partner similar to Lois\Clark but of course that comparisons goes if he is married. But you replied that why could he not interact with his marriage intact simple answer because its two difficult dynamics. This is one example that I have seen.

you laugh at me rather rudely,

How …. You know what no I’ll not go there, but this instance it seems to be your laser eye focus that everything is bad because of the end result or the payoff and I just laugh because to me anyway if the leadup is bad the payoff is more than likely going to be just as bad and OMD didn’t disappoint in that regard one of the few times it didn’t.

and you add in censored swearing, which we already discussed.

I add the censoring to censor my language which happens when I get angry, annoyed, pissed or all three.

At least when you mock me for "missing your point", I try to give an argument in support of my position. I want to show that I understand your point even if I disagree with it.

Ok thanks for that.

I take a look at everything and see what they contribute to a larger whole. I don't feel satisfied having a variety of criticisms against the story if my only conclusion is "This sucks." I want to connect each individual criticism rather than leave them separate, with the hope being that I could form a stronger and collective argument that point to the heart of a story's flaws.

Right whatever floats your boat but why waste energy doing that if the end result is this story sucks or is badly written in your own opinion to me but like I said before it’s your own energy.

I'm not saying that they have to be with their most popular love interest or they're not real, I was calling Superman the "real" one because I agree with people who view the New 52 has having difference iterations of certain characters, so when I think of "New 52 Superman" and "Pre-Flashpoint Superman", it's "Pre-Flashpoint Superman" who I would sooner identify as the "real" one. I understand how irritated you are, but the strawman you're presenting with "give us the same stuff recycled" does not make me sympathize.

Ok you don’t sympathize, I’m guessing you won’t be surprised to learn that I don’t care. Heres the thing for me anyway just in case I’m getting Irritated because for me you implying that because the pre flashpoint one is the “real” one then the new 52 one is a fake which devalues him and in my mind spits in the face of all his fans, here’s what I would suggest why not use "your" superman because I can almost guarantee that when it happens and the marriage is restored most fans will say the real spider-man is back which of course does the same to the current spider-man your spider-man is married to mary jane, while mine is in a tossup between a ménage a trois with gwen and mj or gwen and carol not sure which atm.

Mets is asking us about the sales of an alternate universe title, and that title features Peter as a father. You say "No this is about…" as if you're correcting me again, but I think we're just focusing on two aspects of the same focus of this thread. While I agree that having kids ages Spider-Man, I disagree with Marvel positioning that as a bad thing.

The reason I said no is because your comment was to me missing something important, so yes I was correcting you because your initial post to me anyway taken at face value doesn’t describe the RYV ongoing.

This thread is about an ongoing series set in an alternative universe which features Spider-Man as a father.

That to me is accurate and I also pointed out how Marvel are flexible in AU but not the main universe for the simple fact that if it isn’t selling for whatever reason then they can pull the plug easier, I personally think you will always have a Spider-Man title at Marvel starting Peter Parker. That’s how I see it anyway.

But you are laughing at me, right? How do I "amuse" you?

Might have something to do with the fact that Sins Past is hated about as much as OMD if not more but you call it a poorly regarded story, it’s not a poorly regarded story it is one that is hated by the majority of the fanbase and I think the only saving grace it has is that the relationships for the current day characters were written well but I know of more than a few who would like BND for the only reason that Sins Past went with it, they were disappointed and angry when it wasn’t the case.

That doesn't answer my question.

Ok going back to the five groups love like neutral dislike and hate, maybe more people than you realize are in the neutral or in Sins Past case more people are in the hate group than you expect or are counting on when you made your comment.

Are you familiar with how people say "Oh, you know that thing you were talking about? Well, here's what I think about it."? That's what I was doing there.

Right

I don't think he hates Gwen. I have more reason to believe that he actually likes Gwen, possibly more than Mary Jane, but that's not something I want to get into. My understanding is that his preference for a "youthful" Spider-Man is why he vetoed Gabriel and Sarah being Peter's children. That was out of a concern for Peter's "age", but had nothing to do with any hatred for Gwen.

A lot of fans would disagree because of his insistent that Peter is youthful her first time was with his best friends old man and their counter is why tell the story if its isn’t going to be faithful I mean I don’t mind it and I find the fact she slept with Norman very icky.

And… more insults. My suspicion is that the binary question serves to trap me, but I'd rather not make too many more assumptions here, so I'm just going to avoid the question, especially since our exchanges are getting more personal and off-topic.

Could you stop, I’m sorry if you think I’m insulting you but I’m actually not, I’m judging your comments and the simple fact that you refuse to answer a question other than being rude is extremely annoying and disrespectful especially when I have asked it twice and answered all of yours. The reason I would like an answer is to know what your priority for me it’s not the relationship it’s the quality of the story telling so they could keep the marriage out for the next 40 years until I’m forced to stop collecting because I can’t read them anymore and I would still love and smile back at fond memories of reading spider-man.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Well I suppose it does give me insight to why people accept One More Day just because it erased the marriage, but at least the characters actually remember The Night Gwen Stacy Died, while One More Day was just supposed to sweep the marriage under the rug like it never happened. Even if Gwen's death was a bad decision, at least it's actually supposed to mean something to the narrative, and the characters still remember it. We've had to wait until this year with Peter making an offhand reference to Mephisto after Miles fought Blackheart, or recent issues of Spider-Man/Deadpool, before it seemed like Peter was actually allowed to have even the slightest awareness of the story.

You see meaning, the meaning I see is that Conway didn’t want to write Gwen he wanted to write his creators pet and that was Mary Jane and the more time since the less interest there was in Gwen until recently and as for remembering the deal why would you want him to, it defeats the purpose of the story and the only reason that I could see for him to remember the deal is for manpain, and I hate manpain.

And there's the swearing again.

Here is me getting the trinty of annoyed, angry and pissed off.

I'm pretty sure people do care if Dan Slott is trolling them, but yes, his execution doesn't work for everyone. If marriage fans have reached the conclusion that Peter can't grow without a wife and kid, then I would believe that it's because of the juxtaposition between the marriage and Brand New Day, with the latter directly leading into Slott's run.

Except he did grow and change during slots run, there was when he joined Horizon and grew into that role and he didn’t manpain about being spidey because he found a way to do both, for all intents and purposes Slott gave him his dream job and he didn’t need his wife or kid to do it.

Because I like Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, and stories like Harry Potter, Naruto, and Fire Emblem, among others, have really helped me appreciate the idea of couples having kids, and for it to not just leave it at "…And they all lived happily ever after", because I like seeing further stories where the parents can interact with their kids, and maybe the kids themselves could also become characters in their own right instead of just "Here are the couple's babies."

You do realize that Harry Potter which is the only one of the three I’m familiar with more or less left it and they all lived happily ever after. Only recently was there a new book out which may be removed from cannon because I think the reviews are mixed but the major difference is that JK Rowling had a plan and a story which lasted 7 books, Spider-Man is a series of ongoing stories which introduces the sliding timescale, I’m curious how many superheroic parents do you know that have toddlers or even worse teenagers at Marvel because I’m pretty sure the answer would be 1 which is Reed and Sue and the only other one I can think of is Batman and Superman also known as Superdad. What you want isn’t really the regarded norm.

You told me I "don’t speak for that fanbase and nor does one person speak for marriage detractors", and while I figured you might have been trying to say that one person is not representative of the whole group of people who dislikes the marriage, I still base my arguments on interaction with such a person. It was not at all in reference to you, but I also did not want to specify who I meant.

No it’s the intimidated for marriage detractors that got me confused

You said you could understand how something could be done with the marriage, so I was explaining how that is possible.

Thanks but that didn’t really answer my statement especially since the dynamics I listed at least one of them named another character as Peter’s girlfriend which can’t work with the marriage intact for reasons that should be obvious.

[Phantom Roxas]

That’s not what you said, you said that the post would prove that clone saga’s intent was to remove the marriage and the only thing I got from it was that Howard Mackie said it entered the conversation but it was not the intent of the story when pitched. and he later said it was an ideal way to bring that end goal about. But MJS goes on to say It’s been twenty years people’s memories aren’t infallible and everyone in that room when the clone saga was discussed has their own perception of what happened But its safe to say how to get rid of the marriage and the clone saga are intertwined.
So basically from these quotes from two guys it would seem likely that I’m right but because its been so long I could be wrong because everyone has a different way of seeing things, pretty sure reasonable doubt could be argued.

I said that the intent was there because I knew that, according to the quotes, it was not there when it was pitched. Again, I said "regardless of when the conversation happened, the intent still ended up being there", and MJS was saying that, even if their memories aren't perfect, you can tell the connection in spite of that. This shows that, no matter what they forgot, they can still remember that the Clone Saga would satisfy a desire to get a married couple out of the book.

Which is something you can’t prove maybe it was or maybe while writing it and working on it they though hey we could do this by changing this a wee bit and do this which means as Howard Mackie said it wasn’t the intent of the story when it was pitched and they changed it at the final hour or even half way through. I think it all depends on how long they planned Spidey out in those days.

Does it have to be immediately when the story was pitched? He never said they changed it at the final hour of even halfway through. DeMatteis' quote indicates that they had a plan that was going to last around six to eight months, so it does seem like they had some long-term plan.

Because you repeatedly give me the impression , example I say about new dynamics having Carlie be Peter’s Girlfriend and someone he works with on the Police now that dynamic is different if she is only his friend because the relationship is different because why in one he is single and in the other he is married. Better yet you could have Norah or Betty be Peter’s girlfriend/Partner similar to Lois\Clark but of course that comparisons goes if he is married. But you replied that why could he not interact with his marriage intact simple answer because its two difficult dynamics. This is one example that I have seen.

Why does this thread repeatedly involve my own quotes being falsely presented?

I did not ask why he could not interact with them because of the marriage. I agreed with you saying that he would have different dynamics with them because of his marriage. My point was that, if he could have those different dynamics, then it disproves the idea that they had already done everything with the marriage.

I add the censoring to censor my language which happens when I get angry, annoyed, pissed or all three.

I also have those feelings at times, but the censoring still seems unnecessary.

Right whatever floats your boat but why waste energy doing that if the end result is this story sucks or is badly written in your own opinion to me but like I said before it’s your own energy.

I don't see how that's wasting my energy. Yes, I'm still going to conclude that the story sucks, but I'd like that opinion to at least have some depth to it.

Ok you don’t sympathize, I’m guessing you won’t be surprised to learn that I don’t care. Heres the thing for me anyway just in case I’m getting Irritated because for me you implying that because the pre flashpoint one is the “real” one then the new 52 one is a fake which devalues him and in my mind spits in the face of all his fans, here’s what I would suggest why not use "your" superman because I can almost guarantee that when it happens and the marriage is restored most fans will say the real spider-man is back which of course does the same to the current spider-man your spider-man is married to mary jane, while mine is in a tossup between a ménage a trois with gwen and mj or gwen and carol not sure which atm.

Considering how I agree with the notion that One More Day "erased" Spider-Man, and that one we've been saying is pathetic, or how I like that people have suggested replicating the Supermen dichotomy by replacing the "current" Spider-Man with RYV's Spider-Man, I would still equate "my" Spider-Man with the "real" Spider-Man. Granted, that may depend on the book. If it's Spider-Man/Deadpool, then I'm willing to see the the Spider-Man there as "my" Spider-Man and the real one, just with Mephisto's deal changing him, but when it comes to Slott's writing, I'm not going to view his Spider-Man as mine.

The reason I said no is because your comment was to me missing something important, so yes I was correcting you because your initial post to me anyway taken at face value doesn’t describe the RYV ongoing.

This thread is about an ongoing series set in an alternative universe which features Spider-Man as a father.

That to me is accurate and I also pointed out how Marvel are flexible in AU but not the main universe for the simple fact that if it isn’t selling for whatever reason then they can pull the plug easier, I personally think you will always have a Spider-Man title at Marvel starting Peter Parker. That’s how I see it anyway.

I had already said that it's about Spider-Man as a father, or was I just missing the "alternate universe" part of that? I had brought up the father part because it was an example of them covering territory, even if it shares that with MC2, and although you personally cannot relate to Spider-Man being a father, that's what Marvel is hoping for readers to do.

Might have something to do with the fact that Sins Past is hated about as much as OMD if not more but you call it a poorly regarded story, it’s not a poorly regarded story it is one that is hated by the majority of the fanbase and I think the only saving grace it has is that the relationships for the current day characters were written well but I know of more than a few who would like BND for the only reason that Sins Past went with it, they were disappointed and angry when it wasn’t the case.

Well, I was trying to mock the use of the phrase "poorly regarded", because I think it's only used as a smokescreen to avoid stating one's own personal opinion. Saying "it’s not a poorly regarded story it is one that is hated by the majority of the fanbase" doesn't seem to make a difference in meaning, so it's like saying "This isn't an apple, this is an apple." It's trying to say that something isn't one thing, but then making a "correction" by just repeating that it is in fact that very thing. From what I understand, even JMS wanted to get rid of Sins Past with One More Day, but Joe Quesada vetoed that, as well as reviving Gwen.

Ok going back to the five groups love like neutral dislike and hate, maybe more people than you realize are in the neutral or in Sins Past case more people are in the hate group than you expect or are counting on when you made your comment.

I'm sure that there are more people in the neutral group than I give credit, but in my experience, there are also people who pretend to be like the people in that neutral group, mostly because they're afraid of indicating which side they're on out of fear for showing that they are only part of a minority. I don't believe that you are such a person, but that is why I show a lack of consideration towards other people who claim to be neutral. I simply just don't believe them.

A lot of fans would disagree because of his insistent that Peter is youthful her first time was with his best friends old man and their counter is why tell the story if its isn’t going to be faithful I mean I don’t mind it and I find the fact she slept with Norman very icky.

Alright, if people believe that, then I have no reason to disagree with them. I just did not want to immediately jump on the idea that Quesada hates Gwen because I thought I would be supporting what others dismiss as a "conspiracy theory", and I would only be jumping on the idea that he hates Gwen it's more convenient for my perspective on his opinion of the franchise and its characters. I do think that her sleeping with Norman is a stupid and disgusting. I don't like Sins Past, and I think it deserves all the scorn it gets, but at same time, since I prefer Mary Jane over Gwen, One More Day is the story that will upset me more. I'm sorry if I've belittled those who don't like Sins Past, because I don't think that they are completely in the right to hate it for how it treats Gwen.

[Phantom Roxas]

Could you stop, I’m sorry if you think I’m insulting you but I’m actually not, I’m judging your comments and the simple fact that you refuse to answer a question other than being rude is extremely annoying and disrespectful especially when I have asked it twice and answered all of yours. The reason I would like an answer is to know what your priority for me it’s not the relationship it’s the quality of the story telling so they could keep the marriage out for the next 40 years until I’m forced to stop collecting because I can’t read them anymore and I would still love and smile back at fond memories of reading spider-man.

Fine, my priority is that I want the marriage back. When I think Slott's writing is poor in quality, though, I'd rather keep the criticisms completely separate from whether or not it includes the marriage, because that would be ignoring other flaws in his writing that have nothing to do with Peter and Mary Jane's marriage. I've refused to prioritize one over the other because I think it's stupid to just want the marriage back if you have no regard for the quality, because it would be very shallow to just act as though the presence of the marriage automatically negates poor storytelling. The quality of the storytelling is something that I believe is a very basic desire out of any story, to the point that I don't think I should have to explicitly demand that a story be good, whereas the marriage is something I do think I have to actively express my desire for.

You see meaning, the meaning I see is that Conway didn’t want to write Gwen he wanted to write his creators pet and that was Mary Jane and the more time since the less interest there was in Gwen until recently and as for remembering the deal why would you want him to, it defeats the purpose of the story and the only reason that I could see for him to remember the deal is for manpain, and I hate manpain.

I do agree that Conway just preferred Mary Jane, but he at least managed to do more with the story than just write by that preference, hence the Clone Saga.

I would like Peter to remember the deal because otherwise I believe that the story is not properly resolved. I understand "manpain" as a general concern, but it has absolutely nothing at all to do with this, so it's not a problem here. What was the purpose of the story, and why would defeating that purpose be such a problem? If Peter remembers the deal, then it gives him cause to fight Mephisto. I know that Peter has absolutely no chance of defeating him, but I don't care. As long as Peter wants to defeat Mephisto in order to take back the life he gave up in One More Day, I'd be happy.

Here is me getting the trinty of annoyed, angry and pissed off.

I'm going to the swearing if I see it.

Except he did grow and change during slots run, there was when he joined Horizon and grew into that role and he didn’t manpain about being spidey because he found a way to do both, for all intents and purposes Slott gave him his dream job and he didn’t need his wife or kid to do it.

The "No One Dies" motto was inspired after Peter reached a breaking point in his "manpain", and he feels distraught whenever he cannot live up to what Slott has defined as an impossible goal. He had his dream job, sure, but no he's in Parker Industries trying to weasel his way out of board meetings. Just because Peter has a dream job doesn't he's actually mature while doing it, hence the manchild criticism.

You do realize that Harry Potter which is the only one of the three I’m familiar with more or less left it and they all lived happily ever after. Only recently was there a new book out which may be removed from cannon because I think the reviews are mixed but the major difference is that JK Rowling had a plan and a story which lasted 7 books, Spider-Man is a series of ongoing stories which introduces the sliding timescale, I’m curious how many superheroic parents do you know that have toddlers or even worse teenagers at Marvel because I’m pretty sure the answer would be 1 which is Reed and Sue and the only other one I can think of is Batman and Superman also known as Superdad. What you want isn’t really the regarded norm.

Well, since you're not familiar with the latter two, the most I'll say is just that new stories focus on the children. And yes, Cursed Child only just now came out, but I'm more familiar with how, in the years between that and Deathly Hollows, a variety of fans have entertained the idea of stories featuring the children. For example, fanfiction about them. While that sort of thing is relegated to fanfiction, the fans are engaging with types of characters who I would like to see reflected in officially published stories. I know that what I want isn't the norm, but then again, people seem to really Wiccan and Speed. You know, Scarlet Witch and Vision's teenaged children, even if it's nowhere near as simple as that. Oh wait, there's also Cassie Lang, who has aged naturally. So it's the norm, but there's also a precedent that I think warrants it.

Thanks but that didn’t really answer my statement especially since the dynamics I listed at least one of them named another character as Peter’s girlfriend which can’t work with the marriage intact for reasons that should be obvious.

Betty is someone who I associate more as Flash's love interest, so Betty can have a role to play beyond Peter's girlfriend, even though they have had relationships in the past, so there's dynamics between Peter and Betty that can still work with the marriage. As for Carlie… it's Carlie. I'd rather have those different dynamics. And, you know, if you can have different dynamics, at least you'd still have dynamics. You were pointing to how other things would be done with the marriage intact, right? If you can still have those dynamics, then what's the harm in losing the "girlfriend" dynamics if you still have those other dynamics? It's like you're erasing any and all story potential.

[VolcanikTiger86]

I said that the intent was there because I knew that, according to the quotes, it was not there when it was pitched. Again, I said "regardless of when the conversation happened, the intent still ended up being there", and MJS was saying that, even if their memories aren't perfect, you can tell the connection in spite of that. This shows that, no matter what they forgot, they can still remember that the Clone Saga would satisfy a desire to get a married couple out of the book.

Ok but heres the thing that I would say troubles or confuses me, you said removed but it didn’t destroy the marriage in a way like OMD, Peter and Mary Jane were still married it’s just they no longer appeared in spider-man and even that didn’t last longer, so what I’m saying is that the intent could have been lets make Ben Spider-Man, and that allows us to give Peter a happy ending where I think you are coming from they hated married peter and wanted him out, well we have the clone saga lets write that as his swan song both could be right but due to the differences between the stories of Clone Saga and OMD I’m drawn to the belief that it wasn’t written to write peter out until they came to the last arc.

Does it have to be immediately when the story was pitched? He never said they changed it at the final hour of even halfway through. DeMatteis' quote indicates that they had a plan that was going to last around six to eight months, so it does seem like they had some long-term plan.

For that length of time I would have thought yes it would need to be obvious though it is possible as I said above that it was before the last arc or the final hour but the intent might have been make Ben spider-man, and the marriage leaving the book was a side benefit and the intent was to test to see how fans took to Ben as Spider-Man.

I did not ask why he could not interact with them because of the marriage. I agreed with you saying that he would have different dynamics with them because of his marriage. My point was that, if he could have those different dynamics, then it disproves the idea that they had already done everything with the marriage.

But my initial point was I wanted to explore peter in different partnership and I gave examples
Peter/Carlie similar to Castle/Beckett
Peter/Norah similar to Clark/Lois
Or try something like Tony/Pepper in the MCU but with Peter in Tony’s role.
Those dynamics don’t work with the marriage because every single one of them involves Peter dating the partner in the pairing but that must have something you missed or ignored. I’ll explain if Peter/Carlie are partners with the marriage then it’s not the same dynamic as Castle/Beckett mainly because marriage.

I also have those feelings at times, but the censoring still seems unnecessary.

I’m also at work so I’m just being over cautious don’t want to rock the boat, I like my job and the money it provides.

I don't see how that's wasting my energy. Yes, I'm still going to conclude that the story sucks, but I'd like that opinion to at least have some depth to it.

I’m sorry I just don’t understand why you want depth to something you don’t like, its like reading a book or watching a show you don’t like I just don’t get it. If someone says you have to watch it and I don’t want to then I tell them I don’t want to. Soap operas are the examples that spring to mind and reality tv shows.

Considering how I agree with the notion that One More Day "erased" Spider-Man, and that one we've been saying is pathetic, or how I like that people have suggested replicating the Supermen dichotomy by replacing the "current" Spider-Man with RYV's Spider-Man,

I hate that people are suggesting it, personally don’t like the fact that OML is in the Prime Universe and would like it the same if they bought RYV Peter to this Prime Universe.

I would still equate "my" Spider-Man with the "real" Spider-Man. Granted that may depend on the book. If it's Spider-Man/Deadpool, then I'm willing to see the the Spider-Man there as "my" Spider-Man and the real one, just with Mephisto's deal changing him, but when it comes to Slott's writing, I'm not going to view his Spider-Man as mine.

Why do I sound like a broken record, you don’t want me to insult you but you continue to respond to points and miss the point. You have said that you will see the RYV as the real spider-man which I asked and explained the reasons why I was asking could we just not say “real” and say yours instead but you go ahead and say the bold part. Because your post can come across as arrogant because the direction and writing aren’t what you want then Spider-Man has been erased and we have a fake one which is something I disagree with heavily, but you want to spit in people’s faces go on ahead.

I had already said that it's about Spider-Man as a father, or was I just missing the "alternate universe" part of that? I had brought up the father part because it was an example of them covering territory, even if it shares that with MC2, and although you personally cannot relate to Spider-Man being a father, that's what Marvel is hoping for readers to do.

One I think you are jumping the gun about what Marvel is hoping the readers to do it could be simple Marvel trolling fans of the marriage as they have little to no interest in returning it unless something has changed in the last 9 months. Second yes you had missed the part about it being the alternate universe which is important.

Well, I was trying to mock the use of the phrase "poorly regarded", because I think it's only used as a smokescreen to avoid stating one's own personal opinion. Saying "it’s not a poorly regarded story it is one that is hated by the majority of the fanbase" doesn't seem to make a difference in meaning, so it's like saying "This isn't an apple, this is an apple." It's trying to say that something isn't one thing, but then making a "correction" by just repeating that it is in fact that very thing. From what I understand, even JMS wanted to get rid of Sins Past with One More Day, but Joe Quesada vetoed that, as well as reviving Gwen.

Being poorly regarded imo is saying it’s not going to appear on the list of top 50 spider-man arcs but generally fans ignore it and some can be reasonable if you bring up that you don’t mind it or even like it however if its hated by the fanbase majority then you will get verbal lynched for liking it examples Sins Past, OMD

I'm sure that there are more people in the neutral group than I give credit, but in my experience, there are also people who pretend to be like the people in that neutral group, mostly because they're afraid of indicating which side they're on out of fear for showing that they are only part of a minority. I don't believe that you are such a person, but that is why I show a lack of consideration towards other people who claim to be neutral. I simply just don't believe them.

That’s your right because it can happen but it could be like me I’m neutral now to sins past because I was just so tired on everyone telling me how crap it was and how much damage it did to gwen I just reached the point where I couldn’t give a crap anymore.

Alright, if people believe that, then I have no reason to disagree with them. I just did not want to immediately jump on the idea that Quesada hates Gwen because I thought I would be supporting what others dismiss as a "conspiracy theory", and I would only be jumping on the idea that he hates Gwen it's more convenient for my perspective on his opinion of the franchise and its characters. I do think that her sleeping with Norman is a stupid and disgusting. I don't like Sins Past, and I think it deserves all the scorn it gets, but at same time, since I prefer Mary Jane over Gwen, One More Day is the story that will upset me more. I'm sorry if I've belittled those who don't like Sins Past, because I don't think that they are completely in the right to hate it for how it treats Gwen.

Well honest you aren’t likely to get on with them anyway as most of Sins Past detractors are Gwen Fans and possible Peter/Gwen shippers who really don’t like Conway for killing her.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Fine, my priority is that I want the marriage back.

Thanks for confirming that.

When I think Slott's writing is poor in quality, though, I'd rather keep the criticisms completely separate from whether or not it includes the marriage, because that would be ignoring other flaws in his writing that have nothing to do with Peter and Mary Jane's marriage.

I guess this is something I’m never going to understand if you think it sucks despite the fact that the marriage has been removed then your opinion is Slott writing sucks no. For me Slott is hit or Miss, some of it I don’t mind Big Time, New Ways to Die and Spider-Island spring to mind but then you have Dying Wish, Superior Spider-Man as well.

I've refused to prioritize one over the other because I think it's stupid to just want the marriage back if you have no regard for the quality, because it would be very shallow to just act as though the presence of the marriage automatically negates poor storytelling. The quality of the storytelling is something that I believe is a very basic desire out of any story, to the point that I don't think I should have to explicitly demand that a story be good, whereas the marriage is something I do think I have to actively express my desire for.

One small tiny problem, good is subjective one thing that you find good someone else may not like for example porting the RYV Peter and his family to the Prime Universe I believe you are on board with, me I despise the plan, hated when they did it with Superman and I would hate it more if they did it with Spider-Man. That’s my opinion which would also include the fact that I think it is very hamfisted but that’s me.

I do agree that Conway just preferred Mary Jane, but he at least managed to do more with the story than just write by that preference, hence the Clone Saga.

Please explain this because the Clone Saga didn’t return Gwen but cloned her and in the end made the whole thing a convoluted, complex mess, so I wouldn’t be quick to give Conway credit for it, to me its similar to the tease in Spidey/Deadpool which could basically be trolling fans in the Clone Saga’s case it was in Slott’s case well we shall have to wait and see.

I would like Peter to remember the deal because otherwise I believe that the story is not properly resolved. I understand "manpain" as a general concern, but it has absolutely nothing at all to do with this, so it's not a problem here.

Says who, you have Peter remember that he made a deal with the devil and you aren’t excepting man pain really.

What was the purpose of the story, and why would defeating that purpose be such a problem?

If they wanted a single Peter do you except him to remember a deal that his wife made and not look for a way around it especially considering he would remember their lives together. I do and since the purpose of OMD which we both can agree on was to remove the marriage then Marvel would have written themselves into a corner where the marriage would have had to return after two years but of course I forget you don’t see the problem because you would have been happy with that my bad.

If Peter remembers the deal, then it gives him cause to fight Mephisto. I know that Peter has absolutely no chance of defeating him, but I don't care. As long as Peter wants to defeat Mephisto in order to take back the life he gave up in One More Day, I'd be happy.

One Mary Jane made the deal so there is that and second the only reason he would fight was to take back his life and restore his marriage and all the problems with it, creatively speaking.
I’ll explain I’m a writer at Marvel and OMD has happened and I’m working under the idea that the marriage is gone and I pitch a buddy cop romance between Peter and Carlie for example set after the deal went down with a 3 year plan before they are even dating which includes Carlie finding out that Peter is Spidey and working with him to clean up new York. Marvel shut me down because as your post Peter remembers the deal so my idea which could be great and interesting and I’m told no could you change it because the marriage will be back, I say no because the intent of the story is to slowly build to a relationship between the two characters and then that job of spidey writer goes to someone else. Why because there are stories that don’t work with the marriage and at times can limit the creative choices you can make.

I'm going to the swearing if I see it.

I’m controlling myself quite well I think.

The "No One Dies" motto was inspired after Peter reached a breaking point in his "manpain", and he feels distraught whenever he cannot live up to what Slott has defined as an impossible goal. He had his dream job, sure, but no he's in Parker Industries trying to weasel his way out of board meetings. Just because Peter has a dream job doesn't he's actually mature while doing it, hence the manchild criticism.

The statement had nothing to do with his maturity your criticism was that he hadn’t changed and I said he had citing the dream job at Horizon where he was using his brain to help people by developing tech and making money while he was at it which is different than being a freelancer at the bugle and living at home with his aunt and in my mind it suited the character better than the photographer but that’s me.

Well, since you're not familiar with the latter two, the most I'll say is just that new stories focus on the children. And yes, Cursed Child only just now came out, but I'm more familiar with how, in the years between that and Deathly Hollows, a variety of fans have entertained the idea of stories featuring the children. For example, fanfiction about them.

You do realize that fanfiction of some things is illegal right and also doesn’t have the same limits just because it works in fanfiction doesn’t mean that it will work in the source medium example Marvel will never do a Spidey Harem story but fans do it all the time even with dc characters thrown in to.

While that sort of thing is relegated to fanfiction, the fans are engaging with types of characters who I would like to see reflected in officially published stories. I know that what I want isn't the norm, but then again, people seem to really Wiccan and Speed.

I don’t want Speed that is, can’t say I like the character that much. Also as posted above fanfiction what parts of it are legal don’t have the restrictions that the source medium has, I mean I could write a story that has Peter with the avengers raising his kids Richie, Annie, May, April, Miles and ward Anya alongside his wives Gwen and Mary Jane and I could have all kids older than 18 be in an incestuous poly relationship with their parents, guess what that isn’t going to happen in the comics partly because incest is illegal and also poly relationships aren’t accepted and Gwen is dead.

You know, Scarlet Witch and Vision's teenaged children, even if it's nowhere near as simple as that.

It’s actually simpler than you think, spiritually they are linked to wanda and vision but biological they aren’t not that complicated.

Oh wait, there's also Cassie Lang, who has aged naturally. So it's the norm, but there's also a precedent that I think warrants it.

So a total of 5 characters fit the bill against how many characters. You know what whatever.

Betty is someone who I associate more as Flash's love interest, so Betty can have a role to play beyond Peter's girlfriend, even though they have had relationships in the past, so there's dynamics between Peter and Betty that can still work with the marriage.

Speaking honestly so because you associate Betty as a love interest to Flash then a writer cant explore a relationship between the two even though in universe she has said she doesn’t want to see him again, that makes complete sense to me.

As for Carlie… it's Carlie.

Meaning what exactly

I'd rather have those different dynamics.

Of course you do maybe I don’t

And, you know, if you can have different dynamics, at least you'd still have dynamics. You were pointing to how other things would be done with the marriage intact, right? If you can still have those dynamics, then what's the harm in losing the "girlfriend" dynamics if you still have those other dynamics? It's like you're erasing any and all story potential.

Well I know i shouldn’t but heck I’ll go there what’s the harm in losing the wife dynamic between Mary Jane and Peter, you can have them as friends heck even as super close friends why exactly do you need them married because the marriage can erase story potential just as much as accepting a dynamic that doesn’t work with the marriage but of course you want the marriage back so anything said against the marriage you will refuse to believe.

[Mister Mets]

Hmm… no, that makes sense. If you don't have many rules, I don't think there's any concerns worth bringing up. Thank you for clarifying.



Would it be possible to distinguish this into two separate issues? I understand the repetition that comes with elements that can't be changed, but could that refer to changes in different directions? My disagreement over "freezing" the status quo might inform that I similarly don't think it's important to have every element possible to reverse. I totally understand what you're saying, and how it could lead to overwrought messes, or how it could make other characters redundant. But did that happen? If so, then how?

The Clone Saga was often an overwrought mess. As was the Final Chapter (Mackie/ Byrne version) and The Other.

I think MJ being Peter's primary companion made Harry and Flash redundant, since he no longer needed a best friend.

You meant "math", right?

Then what are you basing your argument that it contributed to the majority of bad stories? Not that it could have contributed, but that it did.



Fair enough.



If you're going to recognize that you made a clumsy response, then please apologize for not accurately representing what my argument actually was.

My argument was that the marriage is treated as something antithetical to what is considered "important" to Spider-Man, hence Joe Quesada's admitted hatred for the marriage, and why the crux of One More Day and Brand New Day was about bringing Spider-Man back to some "core" place. The dichotomy of "married" against the arbitrary definition of "single" has reached the point where I disagree with the idea that it's different ways of a exploring an aspect of a status quo. A lot of importance is placed on distinguishing a married Spider-Man from a Spider-Man who is single (But not really)/unmarried/easier to break up his relationship with Mary Jane at the drop of a hat, so my view is that there is a binary of two competing status quos. Your perspective is that freezing an element of the status quo is a bad thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you also want me to recognize that the marriage's effects are best described as "freezing". My perspective is that I did claim that the marriage does not freeze an element of the status quo and you should apologize for claiming that I was not doing that, but I've since come to accept your perspective, so I'm willing to discuss how the "freezing" is a good thing, but at the same time, I would like that discussion to be concurrent with my disagreement over the married/unmarried binary.



I apologize, because I made a mistake when I said "Your criticism was that tension had been reduced".



Your criticism was actually that tension had been removed. So if there was still tension for the character, and there was still tension for the reader, then doesn't that contradict the claim that marriage removed tension? However, it does support your claim that it produced stability.

As for the future of this title, Mary Jane is wearing armor, and judging by the miniseries, it's possible that she may involve herself in some fights. She could be presumed dead if she were killed in action. While I doubt that Gerry Conway would do this, I could see Annie also being in danger of being presumed dead. There's certainly a precedent for that, given the miscarriage from the Clone Saga.



In that case, I was right when I said "Mary Jane's history with Peter makes her just as difficult to replace to the audience", in comparison to Aunt May.



Slott - who, you know, actually has a job at Marvel and would therefore be more likely to know the company's perspective on this - may have an opinion, but it's based on actual experience. That's the thing about opinions. You can't just say "That's just your opinion" as if that alone shuts down the argument someone was making, nor can you say "This is just my opinion" as if that protects you from disagreement. Similar to our disagreement about the "freezing", Slott is expressing disappointment that other girlfriends don't have a chance of standing out because they will be compared to Mary Jane and Gwen. My perspective is… too bad, deal with it. I like Mary Jane, so I'm going to support anyone who finds alternatives lacking because we'd rather have Mary Jane.

What is the argument on the topic about? I'm trying to say that, at least when it comes to girlfriends, my view is that you think it's a very easy role to fill, unless I'm wrong about that. I'm saying that, judging by what Slott has said, it does not seem like "Peter can have new girlfriends" is far more easily said than done. It's ignoring what inevitably happens. Peter can have new girlfriends… but Mary Jane is still more popular. No matter who interchangeable the girlfriend "role" is treated, Mary Jane's history makes her Peter's most definitive love interest.

Yup, I meant math. My guess is that the marriage did contribute in some way to the majority of poor stories during that era. I haven't tried a blind study, though. Since it's a discussion about the past, I suppose my arguments are more likely to be about stuff that happened rather than stuff that didn't.

My comment on tension being removed isn't quite the gotcha you imagine. There can be tension left over after some is removed.

Renew Your Vows is a different series than a standard Amazing Spider-Man title. It doesn't have to last for an indefinite period of time, so Conway (and anyone else who works on the title) can take some risks that wouldn't work elsewhere.

I don't think MJ is as difficult to replace as Aunt May. There are alternate future stories building on the comics of the 90s/ early 2000s, so as we get more distance, alternate futures can go in different directions.

One point regarding the discussion is the difference between Peter having new girlfriends, and Peter having girlfriends with a particular level of impact. Peter having a new girlfriend is easy to write. It being a good story is a different discussion.

[Xenon]

Good spike at first, slowly drop off into nothingness. Because It's not "Amazing Spider-Man". Everything else dies off. Unfortunate, but true.

Still, Conway and Stegman means this book will get me into the comic shop for the first time in months, so that's something.

The Clone Saga was often an overwrought mess. As was the Final Chapter (Mackie/ Byrne version) and The Other.

I think MJ being Peter's primary companion made Harry and Flash redundant, since he no longer needed a best friend.

I don't think having a Girlfriend or a Wife makes having friends redundant. Those are different relationships. And, frankly, Harry was basically out of the book for a long time after he got married, even withotu MJ around. Flash, too, basically disappears for long stretches of time. Peter's friends just aren't consistently around him.

I don't think MJ is as difficult to replace as Aunt May. There are alternate future stories building on the comics of the 90s/ early 2000s, so as we get more distance, alternate futures can go in different directions.

One point regarding the discussion is the difference between Peter having new girlfriends, and Peter having girlfriends with a particular level of impact. Peter having a new girlfriend is as easy

Aunt May became expendable years ago. She was on the chopping block before Gwen, but was switched out because Gwen was considered a bigger target (and Conway, and stuff, but that's one reason).

[Chrysalis_Changling]

i only ask because so many people have been begging for a married peter parker to return and they get it in an ongoing book but how many of those people will buy it on a consistent monthly basis?

[GreenLanternRanger]

These days you never know what will or won't sale it seems. I know i'll be buying Renew Your Vows, weather it will sell better, worse or the same as the RYV mini or the main Spider-Man book we will have to wait & see.

[Mister Mets]

Technically, there's a middle choice that it will sell less than what it did last year, but better than ASM.

My guess it that it usually won't sell as well as the main title (the first two issues are a potential exception) although this would not mean that the book is a flop.

[Zeitgeist]

It'll start strong and then level out like any other comic book. Won't do as well as ASM. Not sure how it'll sell in general. May do OK?

[Kevinroc]

It'll start strong and then level out like any other comic book. Won't do as well as ASM. Not sure how it'll sell in general. May do OK?

Probably something like this. Might help net a few sales if they cross into the main universe in some way. People want their books to "count."

[Celgress]

One never can tell. That said I think it'll sell fairly well, at the very least.

[Frontier]

Probably something like this. Might help net a few sales if they cross into the main universe in some way. People want their books to "count."

I guess I could see it happening, but I don't want the Parkers crossing over to 616 as much as they have Gwen doing it. Keep them in their own corner and away from all the craziness of 616, and what's going on with the "main" Peter and MJ.