Dissecting RLM's Star Wars reviews, the "108 rebuttal" and other responses

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Another long one:
Post 4, Pairt 1




Alright this post is gonna be about characters forgetting about major parts of their story arcs for entire segments of the movie - and RLM's failures to address this, despite dabbling in the areas where that happens.

Why does Quigon tell Valorum that he needs to speak to the council? Does he need his permission to see the council? Valorum’s like “what the **** do I care”...

That is true, however what's much more important is the fact that Valorum was the one who "secretly" sent them to help the Naboo (possibly to intimidate the Neimoidians into stopping the blockade, as was implied), and they're talking to him right now - yet that original mission and its developments aren't the subject of the conversation:

Valorum is already informed about the invasion, and Quigon talks about seeing the Council, so the "complication" he's informing him of is obviously exclusively referring to the encounter with Maul, and possibly the prophecy as well.


Valorum, up until that point, had been the character who had secretly sent the Jedi to "settle the conflict", and the one they had wanted to contact all this time; that was before the Sith showed up.
Whereas from this point on, he becomes the powerless chancellor who can, at best, try to support the Naboo in the official, political arena - and even though it's thanks to him and the Jedi he sent that Amidala is now on Coruscant, she doesn't seem to acknowledge that fact in her first scene with Palpatine, calling him merely their "strongest supporter"; it appears his role in the 1st half of the film was suddenly written out of the script as soon as they arrived on Coruscant.

Also, up until this point, Quigon had been primarily focused on the Naboo crisis; it had been a central aspect of his story arc, with the Sith added later and gradually as a "complication" - and the Chosen One entering the picture as a seemingly disjointed element with only an implied/visual connection to the Sith.
After this, however, neither Quigon nor Obiwan will drop one word about Naboo, or the Queen, for the entire duration of their stay on Coruscant.


So... between Valorum, who was apparently capable enough of sending the Jedi "in secret", even if officially his hands were bound, and the Jedi who were working for him and focused on the Naboo crisis, there clearly should've been some kind of pay-off - probably in the form of a discussion in which it's established that he can't use them as witnesses despite believing them himself, and can't do anything "backstage" at this point either.

Instead, the main thing that defined both characters - and especially Quigon, the on-screen lead - just gets dropped, in a short scene that doesn't seem to make much sense.


The only way it might make sense is if the Council wasn't in the know about the secret mission at first, and hence Quigon had to ask Valorum for permission to talk to them, given how the "complication" now directly concerned the Jedi.
But there's absolutely nothing to support or convey this in any of the following scenes.

Point is, RLM focus on this "nonsensical" "plot hole" (in this case accurately), but end up ignoring the actual relevant gap in the story structure directly tied to it - thus failing at "film criticism".

At the end of the movie, Amidalan goes back to her planet to solve the problem herself, cause the Senate wanted to send an independent team to investigate whether or not the invasion was real.

I guess the testimony of two Jedi Knights wasn't good enough. Those were the guys that Valorum trusts enough to settle the whole dispute in the first place? That don't make sense.

Alright here's the dialogue that takes place when they arrive on Coruscant:
Palpatine: "It is a great gift to see you alive, Your Majesty. With the communications breakdown, we've been very concerned. I am anxious to hear your report on the situation. May I present Supreme Chancellor Valorum."
Valorum: "Welcome, Your Highness. It is an honor to finally meet you in person."
"Amidala": "Thank you, Supreme Chancellor."
Valorum: "I must relate to you how distressed everyone is over the situation. I've called for a special session of the Senate to hear your position."

And then of course "I must speak with the Council immediately - the situation has become much more complicated."


While I guess technically he doesn't say "I believe in your report about the invasion", everything about his behavior in this scene indicates that he does, himself, believe it - all the stuff with "independent team to investigate" was said in the official Senate setting, where, officially, hard evidence was valued, and behind the stage, the bureaucrats/TF had their fingers in everything and were controlling/blackmailing him as well.

Before he calls for the independent investigation, Mas Amedda interrupts hi and whispers something into his ear - Palpatine comments that this is the bureaucrats, paid off by the TF, controlling him and his power ends.


So, the senate scene, and the arrival scene, all but confirm that he believed them (the Queen and the Jedi alike), but couldn't officially act on that in the senate - being actively prevented from doing so by the "true rulers".

However, this should've been confirmed and dramatized on screen - the fact that it wasn't, is a significant flaw in the script, Valorum's characterization, and Quigon's story arc, as just elaborated.





After his brief conversation with Valorum, where he tells him he has to speak to the Jedi Council, Quigon is next seen talking to the Jedi Council about the Sith and the Prophecy - consecutively, and without any character drawing or acknowledging any (previously implied) connection between the two.

After this scene, the Sith disappear from Quigon's and Obiwan's radar as well - leaving Anakin / the prophecy as the only story element the two are seen talking or caring about.
(The same goes for Anakin himself - having previously discussed the Darth Maul attack with both Jedi after take-off).


The Sith and Naboo are brought up again in the final Council scene, at the end of the Coruscant segment, by the Council - who send the pair back to Naboo with the queen, in order to watch out for her "attacker", and possibly try to learn something about the Sith.

However, neither Quigon, nor Obiwan (nor Anakin), seem to react to any of this in any palpable way, aside from bowing and accepting the mission.




Now, they're about to go back, and the following exchange happens:
Quigon: "Your Majesty, it is our pleasure to continue to serve and protect you."
Amidala: "I welcome your help. Senator Palpatine feels the Federation means to destroy me."
Quigon: "I assure you, I will not allow that to happen."

Senator Palpatine didn't say that:
Palpatine: "Your Majesty, be realisitc. They'll force you to sign the treaty."
Palpatine: "Please, Your Majesty, stay here...where it's safe."

Quigon said that.
Quigon: "They will kill you if you stay."
Bibble: "They wouldn't dare!"
Panaka: "They need her to sign a treaty to make this invasion of theirs legal, they can't afford to kill her!"
Quigon: "There is something else behind all of this, your highness - there's no logic in the Federation's move here. My feelings tell me they will destroy you."


It doesn't particularly matter that this is technically "not a hard contradiction" and "reconcileable" (i.e. "you won't be safe there!" "Palpatine also thinks they'll try to kill me." "If you've decided to go bath there, we'll protect you.") - it's a contradiction, and an obvious clash between two conflicting script versions, that also understrikes (if not cements) the larger narrative problems discussed here:


Quigon spent the first half focusing on the Naboo crisis, leading and invested in the mission, and making all the decisions - then, after forgetting about this for the duration of an entire act, he returns to it as a relatively passive advisor and protector (now sent by a different boss for primarily a different, related reason).
Amidala had an entire (palpably flawed) arc on Coruscant where she changed from passive into active - Quigon had no such development, as far as the Naboo storyline is concerned.

He also increasingly sensed there was something more behind the TF's actions, beginning with "unusual amount of fear", continuing with "destroy you" and "disturbance in the force", and culminating with the Sith encounter - then, after forgetting about that as well, he barely registers it when the Council sends him back for that reason, and now has Amidala repeat his own (originally Sith related) line/warning to him.








In the following final act, the two Jedi will proceed to act as muscle and advisors to Padme, and discuss the subject of Anakin - Quigon will continue mentoring him, albeit very marginally by instructing him to hide from the battle.

They'll continue not to spend a single thought on Darth Maul, the primary reason they were sent back, until the very moment when he shows up - and when he does, their focus will entirely turn to him and the duel;
and while their aggressive behavior there will be compatible with having the Naboo battle in mind all this time, they won't show any signs of that.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 4, Pairt 2a

So then they leave for Naboo and no one has any plans.

I've already talked about how the Queen goes back with no plan...

The Jedi also go back with no plan – they're mainly there to discover the mystery of the Sith; sure, they wanna resolve the tax dispute, or the crisis/blockade to some degree maybe, but the Sith coming back after millennia is an important matter.

And they have no plan between themselves how to lure, catch, or react to him if he shows up.
Instead it's a "let’s go and see what happens when we show up" kind of plan - guess that’s why Quigon got killed, huh?

(Two entirely different circumstances are described as the same here - this is "achieved" by misrepresenting both of them.

As discussed in the previous post, the Queen did go back with a plan - she just didn't reveal it to others until a certain point (or two certain points, to be more precise).
And with the Jedi, what's going on here is something else entirely


No, it's not a "let's see what happens" kind of plan - nor is the issue here that they "have no plan".

The issue here is that they don't bring it up at all - and otherwise show no signs of thinking about it.
It's an important aspect of their story arc, which the script forgets about during this segment.




Quigon got killed because he recklessly/overconfidently/zealously charged at Maul for no established reason, not waiting for Obiwan to catch up with him, and getting himself trapped.

Now comes the Duel of the Fates - I've already talked about the emotional part, now I'm gonna talk about the logical part!
There's no emotional or logical meaning - this movie has nothing in it!

Maul is eager to face them in battle, despite having been instructed by Sidious to let the Jedi make the first move – that's fine, he wants to prove himself in battle.

Sidious told him to let the queen and her group to make the first move, not the Jedi - before finding out about the gungan army, which was her "first move".

What Maul is here to do, to primarily challenge the Jedi (consistent with his behavior in the duel, and his desire to reveal themselves to the Jedi), or to mow through them to get to the queen (consistent with Sidious instructions before Tattoine), or to simply remove them from the battle - as well as whether he was following instructions, his own intentions, or rash, hotheaded desires, isn't really clear.

But I can't understand what the Jedi's motivations are - what's going on inside their heads?
Here are several possibilities, not contained in the movie but purely speculative:

1)
The Jedi also crave fighting, and also want to prove themselves in battle.

That's pretty much what their facial expressions and mannerisms during the fight are conveying - in Obiwan's case, a gleeful eagerness; in Quigon's, calm (at times slightly contempt-filled) confidence, or the determination to stand up to the challenge / return of the sith.

The latter can also be read in conjunction with several other, external, plausible motivations, none of which Plinkett is going to list in this segment (or anywhere else) - or, more concretely, possibilities C)-D) at the bottom of this post.

2)
They're like space cops – they'd rather apprehend the perp without incident and not escalate into an all-out shooting/conflict where people might get hurt.

Well apparently they are, but what does that have to do with this sequence? Seems rather misapplied here... to put it mildly.

3)
They're space detectives, investigating and solving problems – but there's no attempt made to talk to Maul: Quigon asks no questions, and didn’t tell the guards behind them to shoot him because this guy is dangerous.

a) They've been shown as "detectives" and "investigators" elsewhere - but what's the point of saying this here?
Plinkett himself, in this same audio commentary, had just acknowledged that they'd been sent to Naboo, by the Council, to possibly learn something about the "mystery of the Sith".

b) How does telling the guards to shoot him have anything to do with space detectives?
This appears to be some kind of non-sequitur - perhaps it was supposed to be a "4) they're trying to dispose of this nuance quickly to get back to the battle", which actually is (or would've been, had RLM said it out loud) one of the sensible variants here.

However, in that case, the answer's that he'd deflect the lasers back at the guards, or do something worse to them - that always happens!

So what are Jedi? What are we left with, aside from this strange notion of honor and nobility – the only thing they didn’t do was to bow before fighting...

What, outside of this sequence? Well, a lot of things, like keepers of the peace / warriors (for peace), detectives, diplomats/enforcers, advisors; have some spiritual supergoal with the prophecy etc.

There's no attempt to discover any mystery, ask questions or delay the fight as much as possible.
It would’ve been much more interesting and more intense if they had a plan to capture him, and were getting foiled, or if there was dialogue along the line of “we must keep him alive! who sent you?! what was your mission?!”.

aI) All of these points are correct - except for the (subjective) "more interesting" part: what it would've been, is properly consistent with their priorly established motivation/goal/instructions.

Outside that context, if taken as 1), it's sufficiently interesting, or, to use a more fitting term in that context, "impactful".

aII) While something else is being conveyed here (as pointed out in 1)), the Jedi's behavior is still technically consistent with an effort to subdue him, and start asking questions then.



So now, apparently, after another brief amnesia (see "go back for no reason"), Plinkett remembers again that they were sent here to learn about Darth Maul:

The Council seemed concerned about his existence, but after that it wasn’t discussed anymore.

"Wasn't discussed anymore" is now a lot closer to the truth, or the essence of the problem, than "they came back with no plan".

To be more precise, the Council did proceed to discuss it, when sending them back to Naboo.
Quigon and Obiwan didn't discuss it after the first Council scene, however - all the way until he showed up on Naboo.

Obiwan didn't say “Master, what should we do if we run into that bad guy?” - ah, Quigon probably would've answered with “Don’t think - use your instincts! Trust your judgement!” or some other such mumbo jumbo.

While this remark here isn't all that serious to begin with, it should be noted that Quigon never drops fortune cookie lectures as random/misplaced as this would've been - although he did come somewhat close in the very first dialogue scene with Obiwan, who expressed diffuse concern (not) about the mission (which I've already correctly identified as inconsistent with the following scene - which RLM overlooked), and one time underwater to apparenty brush off Jar Jar's whining.

The first part of the quote is correct - however, in this entire segment, the true extent of this narrative gap isn't acknowledged, treating it instead as a more local problem.

At one point, Quigon kicks him off the bridge but then jumps after him and keeps fighting – who’s attacking whom here?
One would think he’d want the crazy dangerous guy as far away from him as possible...

How does this "one point" stand out in any way?
That's what both of them are doing throughout the entire fight - attack and charge at Maul.


Who's attacking whom, isn't a question here at all - the question is what their motivation is behind "attacking" him, which (haplessly) leads back to Plinkett's original question asked in this segment.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 4, Pairt 2b









So here's an actually valid, focused list of possibilities (combinations of those also thinkable) - all based on something in the movie, thus not "purely" speculative:


A)
Their plan is to subdue Maul, in order to then try and question him (or chase and stalk him if he flees?).

It's a fairly reasonable plan in accordance with the Council's primary instruction.

Unclear, because it's not conveyed in the sequence, and not discussed or built up priorly.

(Approached, flawedly, in this segment of the commentary - incl. 3).)


B)
They're trying to neutralize him as quickly as they can, in order to get back to helping Padme - and prevent him from killing them and then going after Padme, where he'd have his easy way with her.

They're fighting alongside Padme when he gets in the way, and Quigon tells her he and Obiwan will take care of this, causing Padme (with a look of concern on her face) to take a different path; this implies that had they tried to run past him, he would've attacked/stopped/prevented them - at least in the protagonists' mind.
This is how the duel starts in the first place.

Unclear, because it's not conveyed in the sequence, and the Council doesn't say anything about whether Maul or Padme should be prioritized in a given situation.

(Possibly briefly touched on / meant in "4)".)




The next ones focus on Quigon (however, also explain Obiwan's similar behavior (before they get separated) by extension, as, especially after reconciling in the woods, he's pretty much his "follower"):


C)
Quigon thinks Maul is a threat to Anakin, and therefore charges him zealously.

Possibly consistent with his face expressions during the fight.
Something he should've considered way back on Tattoine (and perhaps had actually, vaguely, considered, before the ambush) - as RLM earlier brought up in a flawed form, and I analyzed properly.

Unclear, because, well, for the reasons RLM brought up in a flawed form, and I analyzed properly - the movie strongly implies a connection between the discovery of Anakin and the appearence of Maul, by ominously cutting between them at first, then placing them in the same scenes, and now having Quigon talking to him right before running into Maul; but no character ever acknowledges anything.
At one point on Tattoine, between talking to Obiwan about the midichlorians and Maul's arrival on the planet, he sports a terrified, foreboding look which might imply he's aware of something - but that's the only time that happens, and it certainly doesn't anywhere before or during the duel.


C1)
Quigon comes to believe it's his destiny to "train the Chosen One and defeat the first Sith" - when he dies, he realizes he was only meant to discover him, or that he'd become delusional, and passes on the baton to Obiwan.

He thinks it was the will of the Force to discover Anakin, and later says "he'll do what he must" - combined with some subtle signs of arrogance/recklessness (his rebellious behavior when Anakin gets rejected), and accusations by Yoda of leaping to conclusions, the "must" could've meant, or later come to mean "chosen by destiny".
He asks Obiwan to train him, right after he's mortally wounded, and right after Obiwan manages to defeat Maul - he charged Maul thinking he'd beat him before getting trapped and the tables turned on him, and when he's stabbed, his face expression can be read as a realization of defeat, or having been wrong.

Unclear, because this is conjecture at worst, and an interpretation based on some details and circumstances at best - plus, there are counter-interpretations to every argument brought up: Quigon thought someone had to train Anakin, which is why he wanted the Council to do it, and only stepped forward himself when they refused to;
his arrogance would lead him to making a rash, defiant decision like that;
of course he'd tell Obiwan to train him while dying - would've done the same if killed under any circumstances, really.


Before the Council refuses to train him, but after they've already shown skepticism, he tells Obiwan "he'll do what he must" - however, when they actually refuse, he acts indignant and surprised.
It's hard to interpret that, since it appears to be another of many inconsistencies between scenes.



D)
Quigon's arrogant and reckless, therefore charges him.

He shows that character flaw in some scenes.

Unclear, because unclear.


D1)
Quigon has a personal rivalry with Maul after getting ambushed by him / charges at him as he thinks he's getting the upperhand now; Obiwan is eager to fight that guy he saw through the window, and whom he enquired about in the following conversation on the ship.

Consistent with the face expressions.

Not one thought wasted on Maul during all this time, so without any development to bridge it, or anything for that matter to confirm it.









Conclusion:
There are large gaps, and inconsistencies, in Quigon Jinn's / the 2 Jedi's story arc - problems in themselves, they're also largely responsible for the motivation confusion during the duel of the fates.

RLM only manage to identify local symptoms of these narrative gaps, stumble through their analysis of the duel, and hardly manage to connect any of the dots.


One would've thought 70 minutes of video review and 2 hours of audio commentary would've provided plenty of time to assess the structural problems of the movie, properly.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Three additions/modifications to Post 2, Part 3 and Post 2, Part 4.











Post 2, Part 3:
http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2163159


Original version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then the Jedi council tells Quigon that he cannot start training Anakin but he does it anyway.

But I thought he was just on a mission he didn't care about, and that disqualified him as a protagonist?

I didn't hear anything about him having an agenda that he insisted upon against the opposition of everybody else... that would've made him a proactive character or something.

At any rate, the Council goes from refusing to train him and telling Quigon he can't train him while Obiwan is still his apprentice, to postponing their decision about Anakin until the political dust has cleared - and Quigon goes from deciding to train him in favor of Obiwan against no prohibition from the Council, to saying he can't train him because the Council prohibited him.

Doesn't look like he meant it in a "until Obiwan makes his trial" either, so a bit inconsistent there....

And they bring the little kid to a war zone for no reason.

Quigon wants him to "watch him and be mindful" as a substitute for actual training (which he's "not allowed" to give - but that's not really presented as a reason why he takes him back to the occupied planet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


























New version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then the Jedi council tells Quigon that he cannot start training Anakin but he does it anyway.

But I thought he was just on a mission he didn't care about, and that disqualified him as a protagonist?

I didn't hear anything about him having an agenda that he insisted upon against the opposition of everybody else... that would've made him a proactive character or something.





At any rate, this is a sloppy, inaccurate description of what's happening - and, by virtue of being sloppy, it ironically ends up missing the slop in the script:


1)
The Council doesn't tell Quigon that he can't train him - they tell him they won't train him, to which he reacts by deciding to train him himself;
clearly surprised at this reaction, they tell him that he can't... as long as he's already got an apprentice in Obiwan.
In response, he claims that Obiwan's ready to end his apprenticeship, thus enabling him to take on Anakin as his next apprentice;
they retort that it's up to them to decide who's ready, but Quigon continues to argue and insists that Obiwan is - that's when the Council's seemingly had enough, or gives up, and announces that the decision (with regards Anakin) will be postponed.

They change the subject to the recent developments and escalation around the Naboo crisis, and send the 2 Jedi back to look out for Darth Maul.




Here's the main problem with this: by the time this session began, the Council already knew about the queen leaving, and the possibility of her "attacker" showing up - this is obvious both from context, and the manner in which they present these issues to Quigon.
Based on this, and, once again, the manner in which they present it, the decision to send the 2 Jedi back to Naboo had also been made before the session started.

Yet, there's not one hint of any of that in the 1st half of the scene - they evidently hadn't told Quigon about any of that, and weren't thinking about it either, judging from their behavior.

Instead, they're all entirely focused on the subject of Anakin's training - and change it (to what appears to have been the main, most urgent purpose of the session) when Quigon keeps arguing and the subject eventually becomes too complicated (expanded by the additional factor of deciding whether Obiwan's ready for the trials) to resolve at that moment, with those more urgent matters (=their main purpose of the session) hanging in the air.

It doesn't even appear like the question of Obiwan's trials is the reason, or plays a palpable role in this switch of gears (as in "even if we agreed to this, there's no time for trials right now - the truth is, we've primarily summoned you for a different purpose: the queen [,,,], and we have to send you two back to Naboo with her [...] - we shall discuss your Padawan learner when you return.") - although, technically, the dialogue can be read in that way.


One is left to wonder why they didn't establish a "look, your request may be important in the long run, but right now the events are escalating and we have to send you on an important mission - so let's either wrap it up quickly, or postpone it" framework right away - and how they were going to "change the subject to the actual main purpose of the session" had Quigon not argued, stopped arguing, or argued in a different direction.

And because such a framework wasn't established, and their "change of subject" ends up being a reaction to the arguing, it comes off as an almost spontaneous, well, reaction, or something they'd just remembered to bring up - which, obviously, doesn't match the status of the 2nd subject as the much more pressing, and main purpose of the session.



What this is really is, is the script failing to put these two subjects into one council scene in a functional, believable way - instead of combining them organically, it entirely separates them, and puts them in a consecutive order with a questionable, sudden transition inbetween.







So, they've postponed the decision until later - when that "later" comes, after the victory on Naboo, they'll decide in favor of both Obiwan becoming a master, and Anakin being trained: entirely off-screen, and with no reasons or motives provided.

This is a minor problem in Obiwan's case, since Quigon didn't come off as entirely genuine when claiming he was ready - but, apparently, it wasn't that far from the truth, so the Council "kept their own counsel" and decided he was good to go.

However, it's a major problem in Anakin's case, considering their serious objections to it priorly, and Yoda's serious objections to it when he informs Obiwan of this decision.




2)
Quigon's told he can't train him for now, while Obiwan's still his apprentice, and tells Anakin he can't train him - not quite as rebellious as he could've been, or was claimed to be by RLM (and hence less agency, which means more of a protagonist).

However... for maximum consistency with "the Council will decide Anakin's future", he probably should've said "I'm not allowed to train you for now, so I want you to watch me and be mindful".

And they bring the little kid to a war zone for no reason.

Quigon wants him to "watch him and be mindful" as a substitute for actual training (which he's "not allowed" to give) - but that's not really presented as a reason why he takes him back to the occupied planet (nor does this actually happen on the planet).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Original version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go back for no reason.

[...]

But really what's curious about this is that no other Jedi come back with them. Even though there might be a Sith there.

Wait... why would they go back with the 2 Jedi, when the 2 Jedi themselves went back for no reason?

Oh wait, the 2 went back because they were sent there... by the Council.... because of the Sith. (And maybe also because the ensuing events surrounding the TF could "widen the confrontation", though that line isn't directly presented as a reason.)
Well, yea, they should've sent more guys with them.

The Jedi are sent to negotiate the tax dispute, then get attacked, and now are suddenly invested in the queen’s problems, even following her back to Naboo to solve her problems by force.
Why did the jedi go back with her again?

Um... because they were sent there by the Council? To look for the sith?

It's interesting how there are two lengthy sections in this same audio commentary discussing the Jedi's lack of any plans how to apprehend this Sith or what to do if he shows up (one section about the lead-up, and the other about the duel itself), specifically emphasizing how that was the very reason they're on Naboo in the first place - yet here, the claim is that no reason was given why they go back with her.







What's also interesting is that the review starts out by criticizing the pair's lack of agency/autonomy (i.e. "they were just sent on a mission"), which is false;
then proceeds to criticize them for having agency/autonomy and supposedly deviating from their mission - with the reasoning that their decisions are dumb or their motivations inexplicable... which is mostly false;
and now that their actions ARE, once again, just following the mission they were sent on, omits this in order to pretend they went back "for no reason".

So... now that that initial criticism would be actually somewhat valid, considering that they've had a whole movie to become invested in Padme's plight, and Quigon's had this whole arc of sensing the Sith behind the plot, and yet what makes them go back with her, to where that Sith might be waiting, is being sent there by their boss?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------














New version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go back for no reason.

[...]

But really what's curious about this is that no other Jedi come back with them. Even though there might be a Sith there.

Wait... why would they go back with the 2 Jedi, when the 2 Jedi themselves went back for no reason?

Oh wait, the 2 went back because they were sent there... by the Council.... because of the Sith. (And maybe also because the ensuing events surrounding the TF could "widen the confrontation", though that line isn't directly presented as a reason.)
Well, yea, they should've sent more guys with them.

"We will use all our resources to unravel this mystery - we will discover the identity of your attacker."
"Go with the queen to Naboo and discover the identity of this dark warrior - this is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith."
Oh – I thought you were gonna work on that.

That was before she decided to go back, making them expect Maul to show up on Naboo.

However, to say that the council sending some more Jedi down with them would've been more consistent with their stated intention in the 1st quote, is correct.
Well either that, or, alternatively, them or the movie providing a reason why only the 2 should go.



This negligence, or carelessness, has three possible explanations:

a) Narrative inertia:
The 2 lead character Jedi arrive at Coruscant after having being sent on a mission, the same 2 leave Coruscant after being sent to another mission.
(They were "in the field" and came to the stationary council... so, they're the "field Jedi" and those are the "council Jedi", they can use resources in their temple but they don't go out in the field.)
Jar Jar arrived with them, and Anakin arrived with them - now Jar Jar leaves with them (without him or anyone else being told why), so Anakin also leaves with them.
Quigon and Anakin were both rejected by the Council - Quigon goes back, so Anakin goes back.

Basically, a previously established character constellation (or role) just remains the way it was, even though factors have been introduced since that should've caused it to change - with a certain amount of carelessness, the scriptwriter could've overlooked this need for change, and just gone with the inertia.


b) Another script version clash:
The same two phrases, "discover the identity of" and "unravel mystery", are used in both instances; it's possible that it was written, then reused for a different situation, and then both versions were just left there.

Same with TF out to "destroy" the queen, "almost 10 years ago" from AOTC, or "Even I get boarded sometimes".


"With a certain amount of carelessness", the scriptwriter could've neglected to polish up the resulting problems, incl. but not ltd. to the conspicuously identical phrases.



c)
The 2nd quote is obviously from the (2nd half of the) recently dissected council scene, after the council / the script "questionably" changed the subject from Anakin's training to sending the 2 Jedi back to Naboo and learn about the Sith.

This is the first time the council (or anyone else for that matter) brings up this subject again after their first appearence - after having been discussing or thinking who knows what off-screen.
And, on top of that, they do it in a way that creates confusion about their thought process (behind bringing it up at that particular point), almost makes it look spontaneous, and seemingly on the command of a sloppy script in order to lead into the next act of the movie.


Certainly, the immense amount of carelessness on the scriptwriter's part that resulted in the council bringing up the "mystery of the Sith" again in such a disconnected manner, after having spent an entire act not showing no signs of thinking about this subject since the last time they discussed it... could've easily resulted in some disconnect between the specifics of how they brought it up and the last time they discussed it.

Whatever conclusions they may've come to while contemplating how to "use all their resources to unravel this mystery", that could've led them to decide to use the same Jedi pair in a given scenario (perhaps not to scare him off?), and hence bridged this "contradiction" with a "development", were neither shown nor hinted at.

And if the segment in which they bring it up again doesn't match the scene it's in, it's no wonder it also doesn't match a previous one.

The Jedi are sent to negotiate the tax dispute, then get attacked, and now are suddenly invested in the queen’s problems, even following her back to Naboo to solve her problems by force.
Why did the jedi go back with her again?

Um... because they were sent there by the Council? To look for the sith?

It's interesting how there are two lengthy sections in this same audio commentary discussing the Jedi's lack of any plans how to apprehend this Sith or what to do if he shows up (one section about the lead-up, and the other about the duel itself), specifically emphasizing how that was the very reason they're on Naboo in the first place - yet here, the claim is that no reason was given why they go back with her.







What's also interesting is that the review starts out by criticizing the pair's lack of agency/autonomy (i.e. "they were just following their mission"), which is false;
then proceeds to criticize them for having agency/autonomy and supposedly deviating from their mission - with the reasoning that their decisions are dumb or their motivations inexplicable... which is mostly false;
and now that their actions ARE, for once, just following the mission they were sent on, omits this in order to pretend they went back "for no reason".

So... now that that initial criticism would be actually somewhat valid, considering that they've had a whole movie to become invested in Padme's plight, and Quigon's had this whole arc of sensing the Sith behind the plot, and yet what makes them go back with her, to where that Sith might be waiting, is being sent there by their boss - now that it would somewhat valid, it isn't made.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 2, Part 4:
http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2163165


Original version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, while Obiwan's decision to go back on his own concerns is laid out and is made in a dramatic, climactic scene, the Council's is anything but - considering it happens entirely off-screen, with no reasoning provided.

So it seems like the Jedi Council reluctantly agrees to let Obi-Wan train the boy for no real reason. Hey remember this is not like some kinda board room of company executives making a decision about apple sauce packaging. These are Jedi Masters whose entire existence is solely based on the force, feelings, premonition, and prophecy. When they ALL feel weirded out and predict grave danger, you’d think they of all people would follow their own instincts. But instead for no reason AT ALL they allow the training.

The only valid point here is that this reason wasn't given in the movie - the rest of the reasoning in this excerpt is faulty, as this is clearly a risk/benefit dilemma (with Quigon seeing the benefit and them the risk), and them eventually flipping because they decide the benefit is too important to get scared off by the risk, let's say after contemplating this in connection with the Sith's reappearence and now his death, would make complete sense, and also be based on "feelings, premonitions and prophecy".

Alternatively, Obiwan's, and previously Quigon's, insistance on training him, could've made them decide that it's better to keep an eye on the process rather than letting them go rogue and unchecked.


So the reasons why they'd eventually agree ("reluctantly", no less) all make so much sense they practically write themselves - the only problem is that they weren't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





New version:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, while Obiwan's decision to go back on his own concerns is laid out and is made in a dramatic, climactic scene, the Council's is anything but - considering that it happens entirely off-screen, with no reasons or motives provided.



They made this off-screen decision to accept his training after originally postponing it - and they postponed it in the middle of the previous scene they were in, after initially having announced their decision to reject his training.

This postponement was seemingly motivated by Quigon's continuing protests, his decision to take on Anakin himself, and eventual insistence that Obiwan was ready to make place for him - they had no time to wrestle with that while the Naboo crisis was still going and the 2 were needed there, but now the crisis is over.

So it seems like the Jedi Council reluctantly agrees to let Obi-Wan train the boy for no real reason. Hey remember this is not like some kinda board room of company executives making a decision about apple sauce packaging. These are Jedi Masters whose entire existence is solely based on the force, feelings, premonition, and prophecy. When they ALL feel weirded out and predict grave danger, you’d think they of all people would follow their own instincts. But instead for no reason AT ALL they allow the training.

The only valid point here is that this reason wasn't provided in the movie - the rest of the reasoning in this excerpt is faulty, as this is clearly a risk/benefit dilemma (with Quigon seeing the benefit and them the risk), and them eventually flipping because they decide the benefit is too important to get scared off by the risk, let's say after contemplating this in connection with the Sith's reappearence and now his death, would make complete sense, and also be based on "feelings, premonitions and prophecy".

Alternatively, Obiwan's insistence on training him ("without the approval of the council, if he must") could've made them decide that it's better to keep an eye on the process rather than letting them go rogue and unchecked - after all, Quigon's initial determination was the reason they went back on their rejection and postponed their decision in the first place.


(Yoda tries to dissuade Obiwan for the entire duration of that scene, and only reveals the councils approval once he sees it's pointless and Obiwan even insists he'll go rogue if they refuse; this can easily be interpreted as the council's decision having been to approve should Obiwan, well, threaten to go rogue if they don't.

On the other hand, Yoda says "agree with you the council does", moments after having said "agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner, I do not" - the usage of "agree" in both cases implies a similar meaning, and the word itself implies an ideological basis; this, then, points to the interpretation that the Council simply came to agree with Obiwan (presumably the "Quigon believed in him" part), while Yoda himself had retained his disagreement: pointing more towards the "risk<benefit" scenario.

Thus, attempts to "interpret" turn out to be contradictory, and lead to either possibility.)



So the reasons why they'd eventually agree ("reluctantly", no less) all make so much sense they practically write themselves - the only problem is that they weren't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Siddon]

Alright so this is a short and lazy version of what I was gonna do originally - a "critical analysis" of the movies themselves, juxtapposed with the poor efforts by RLM and 108.

You lied, I'm not going to spend an hour or two combing through this manifesto of yours. The prequels are terrible and Red Letter Media did a fantastic job destroying them.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

You lied, I'm not going to spend an hour or two combing through this manifesto of yours. The prequels are terrible and Red Letter Media did a fantastic job destroying them.

Yea, decision's backfired on me it seems:
While responding to "the poor efforts by RLM", I still find myself having to squeeze in the ""critical analysis" of the movies themselves" (as in many cases, that is actually the main point) - seems like it ended up increasing the mass rather than shrinking it... certainly made the ""critical analysis" of the movies themselves" more tangential and disorganized.



At any rate, the previous posts were going through various "related" excerpts from the EpI review and audio commentary, pointing out contradictions, filling in gaps etc. - pretty sure that part's over, so the next ones should be a lot shorter.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Added the following two sections to "Post 2":


http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2163115
------------------------------------

It's not so crazy because later in the film they attempt to run the blockade and they make it through. The fact that they even tried that makes this a possible option.

Okay, so they free the Naboo air force, and they get on a silver jet thing, to run through a blockade. Which again, I remind you, the point of a blockade is to stop ships from getting through - so Qui-Gon Jinn could've very easily gotten everyone killed.

Oh.
------------------------------------






http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2163131
He's portrayed as more of a trickster archetype here, not antihero.
------------------------------------
Plus, after the bet was won he was able to pressure Watto into keeping his end of the bargain, by reminding him of the Hutts - had he violently forced Watto to give up his goods, he would've had a galactic bounty placed on him! What a smart move that would've been.

As for finding out where the parts were, sneaking in and all that without making Watto suspect him or notice anything until way after the fact, that would've amounted to a heist scenario - ultimately, the creative decision went with the trickster option instead of a heist movie, and if RLM wanted to argue that it would've been the superior choice, they should've made a case for it.


What they did here, on the contrary, is hardly a "case" for anything at all: first, his (very slight) moral impurity is, rather unsurely, inexplicably cited as a movie flaw; and right after that, it's argued that if the ends justify searching a house without a warrant, they also justify fire torture since the two are comparable.
------------------------------------







And replaced

http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2163159
------------------------------------
Sure, Quigon doesn't particularly look like he doesn't care about her problem, in fact, when he tells her he's glad he can protect her once more he doesn't come off as dishonest or anything - and for him to become invested in this, particularly after already deciding himself to help the Naboo without having been orderered to (well, might've been a contingency part of the order, but who knows), would've been completely natural, too.
But it's not a plot point here.

And between reporting to the council about the sith attack and the start of the actual duel, there's no sign of him spending a shred of thought on this matter.

The only thing that's really driving by this point is training the chosen one - whereas it should've been all three plot threads - and even that takes somewhat of a backseat once they're back on Naboo.
So in the 4th act of this movie, Quigon is actually, to a considerable degree, just a knight on a mission he doesn't care too much about, but for some reason the review/commentary seems to be largely unaware of that...
------------------------------------

with

------------------------------------
Sure, Quigon doesn't particularly look like he doesn't care about her problem, in fact, when he tells her he's glad he can protect her once more he doesn't come off as dishonest, even though the tone of voice he says it in would've also been consistent with it being a mere pleasantry - and for him to become invested in this, particularly after already deciding himself to help the Naboo without having been orderered to (well, might've been a contingency part of the order, but who knows), would've been completely natural, despite his presence not being due to his own initiative this time.
But it's not a plot point here.


And between reporting to the council about the sith attack and the start of the actual duel, there's no sign of him spending a shred of thought on this matter.
(Similarly, the potential motivation to finally get back at the Neimoidians after having already tried to confront them after the assassination attempt, and thus a pay-off to the beginning of the movie, is entirely absent here - and has been absent since they left the TF station.)


The only thing that's really driving him by this point is the issue of training the chosen one (whereas it should've been that, plus Darth Maul, plus the Naboo cause), and even that takes somewhat of a backseat once they're back on Naboo.

So in the 4th act of this movie, or its 1st half at least, Quigon is actually, to a considerable degree, just a knight on a mission he doesn't care too much about, but for some reason the review/commentary seems to be largely unaware of that...
------------------------------------

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 1

The secand biggest problem with “The Phantom Menace” is the whole story and the way it was told - it’s almost mind boggling how complex the awfulness is.

This review won't really live up to this announcement (i.e. illuminating any "complex awfulness").


Generally speaking, there are two main aspects to the "story" in this movie:
-the protagonist-centered drama, and
-the villainous scheme/masterplan and actions (which the protagonists are confronted with).

The latter is going to be analysed in the sloppiest way imagineable - effectively dumbing down the "intrigue", though "dumbing down" is putting it... mildly.

While any analysis of the former will primarily consist of skipping through the plot, and stopping to comment on mostly tangential/peripheral issues - mainly tactics and logic (and often sloppily and inaccurately on top of that).
The "way the story is told" will hardly ever be the subject of discussion, with the following exceptions:
-the claim that the "uselessness" of the battle droids removes tension (Part 4, Number 6 - will be dealt with later)
-the implication that there's no drama in the queen's plight, since no people were seen dying (Part 5, Number 10(b) - already dealt with)
-and... this bit here (Part 4, Number 8 - also dealt with):

It's hard to stomach any more of this **** - I still don't know who the main character is and why I should care about any of this. At around this point in the original Star Wars movie, we've been with Luke almost the whole time getting to know him.

We see his plight, his hopes and dreams, we feel his frustrastion, and then his sadness – the slow build-up added depth and emotion and anticipation for the story to expand.

In the Phantom Menace, we have nothing – a monotone queen who’s hiding from signing a treaty that’s supposed to do something.

Why care about any of this? I don’t care about any of these characters.

Now in addition to what's been pointed out already (i.e. about the movie, in this case, slowing down for some "build" and characterization in Acts 2-3) - the review is, at that point, a full-blown chronological commentary on the movie, and this verdict here comes between Acts 1 (i.e. the swift, fast-paced one) and 2.

It makes claims about Act 1, saying there's no reason to care about any of the characters or what happens - this comes, obviously, based on the 25+ minutes (Parts 2-4) of not discussing anything related to stakes, drama, character plights/agendas or anything else that could've reasonably led to said conclusion about said Act 1.

In Part 1, it was established that the Jedi / Quigon were just neutral negotiators with no investment in their mission - and in Parts 2-4, the review proceeded to contradict this initial claim repeatedly by logically questioning their various decisions (that weren't coming from their boss, and they were visibly invested in), or criticizing them for being too autonomous and not neutral enough (or... as neutral as they were at the beginning, which they in fact never were).
Also in Part 1, it was said that the movie wasn't "specifically about this foreign queen" - Parts 2-4 proceeded to only comment on her staff's observations on communication blackouts and invasions while skipping through scenes that actually served to establish stakes and drama, and the queen's POV;
stakes and drama connected to the invasion, and this "treaty that does something".









Long story short, the first segment of the review is concluded with the... conclusion that the movies fails to make its viewer care about its characters or drama; in particular, because there's "nothing" of that in it. A conclusion that is based on:
-no arguments backing it up in the segment it's concluding
-faulty and tone deaf arguments and observations that would've contradicted the conclusion had they... not been faulty and tone deaf.

This is going to be a pattern throughout these reviews: twice at the end of the EpI review, and also in the concluding sections of the next two.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 2a

From the very start of this movie I could tell something was really wrong - just by the way it started.

Without waiting for the camera to linger on the stars for a few seconds, as usual, the Republic ship is already flying towards the camera before it's even finished panning down - conveying a sense of urgency.
After it flies past it, the camera reveals the blockade around the planet, quietly lingering on the image for a few moments.

Within the first few seconds, the movie's already established a tense, mysterious atmosphere.

It opens with some boring pilot asking for permission to land

Before the boring pilot does that, Qui-Gon Jinn (one of the hooded figures at the edges of the screen), in an authoritative tone of voice, commands her to "tell them we wish to board at once" - sending a clear message to the TF, and the audience, that he isn't there to **** around.

on a ship that looks like a half-eaten doughnut with the doughnut hole in the middle… what the **** is that?

The TF ship appears to be a "cool design" without a meaning or purpose - best described as a smaller Death Star with a bracelet shaped saturn ring around it.


The viceroy appears on the communication screen, and assures them the TF's legitimacy, good will and hospitality - all in the sort of shady tone of voice that communicates the exact opposite of all those is the case.
The horns swell, conveying danger and confirming this impression as the ship prepares to land.

The battle droids turn around to face the ship as it's slowly moving into the hangar - while seemingly peaceful (for now), they don't look particularly friendly: contrary to the Viceroy's warm assurances, the ambassadors have essentially just entered hostile territory.

The thick atmosphere of mystery and uncertainty continues to permeate the scene as the two cloaked ambassadors are met by a friendly, unassuming protocol droid who leads them into the conference room - entirely consistent with the viceroy's promises of hospitality and a warm welcome, while something clearly isn't quite right.

Then two cloaked figures walk into a room in a completely flat angle.

There's a flat angle, though.

They sit down in a conference room, drink tea, and wait to talk about a trade dispute with something that looks like my ex-wife.

The tea-drinking comes up again in a later segment:

Also, moments earlier the Jedi willingly drank tea that was given to them – while discussing how everything felt fishy.

Qui-Gon: "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute."

Hey, you guys got any rat poison lying around? Put it in the tea! Put it in the tea! They will drink it, put it in the

So had the first sentence been "They sit down in a conference room, drink tea, and wait to talk about a trade dispute with something that looks like my ex-wife while discussing how everything feels fishy." instead, this might've created the impression that the scene had some sort of tension.

It's only in the context of discussing the "plot hole" of them accepting drinks while worried about foul play, that them being worried about foul play while waiting to talk about the trade dispute, becomes relevant.


(Of course, there is no plot hole either - Quigon drinks the tea with a wary expression on his face, the Sith theme enters the score as he does so, and (being at the end of that scene) it leads directly into the first Sidious appearence.
So not only are the character and the movie aware of something RLM thought they weren't and hence in need of "pointing out", but, ironically enough, it's also a moment that strongly contributes to convey tension, mystery and danger in a scene priorly described as flat and boring.)

They sit down in a conference room, drink tea, and wait to talk about a trade dispute with something that looks like my ex-wife.
While they eventually do get to the ball-numbing, mindless action that the fanboys crave, I found myself utterly bored already.

By "eventually get", he really means "slowly build towards with suspense and atmosphere, created among other things by the leads discussing how everything feels fishy" - or would've rather, had this been a proper film critique:

Finally it's here! The truly epic review/critique/analysis/film making educational video of the 1999 film "Star Wars: The Phantom Menace" There was so much to discuss with this film it had to be long so please don't complain. If you think it's too long then don't watch it. In this opening segment I discuss the major flaw of The Phantom Menace which is the characters and the lack of connection with the audience.

So in addition to not so much "waiting for the trade dispute", as wondering why they're being made to wait this long and why the TF is behaving unusually, and, in general, this whole segment about the dangerous hidden depths behind the trade dispute rather than the trade dispute itself, they're also not so much planning to "talk about" it, as...

Obiwan: "How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands?"
Quigon: "These Federation types are cowards - the negotiations will be short."

... relay "demands" to them, expecting them to comply quickly and without incident.



Opening crawl: "While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict..."

... and thereby end the endless debates.

So the Jedis are there to do what exactly? According to the opening title crawl it was to settle a dispute over the taxation of trade routes… oh.

Stunted Slime: "I knew it! They're here to force a settlement".

And not in the Neimoidians' favor, either.

The Jedi enter the city to rescue the queen for some reason (despite not knowing anything about the treaty yet).
They're supposed to be neutral negotiators...

lol no

They sit down in a conference room, drink tea, and wait to talk about a trade dispute with something that looks like my ex-wife.

As in: "They sit down in a conference room, warily drink tea that is given to them, and wait to end a trade dispute at the expense of something that looks like my ex-wife while discussing how everything feels fishy.".

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 2b

Compare this fecal matter, to the opening of the original Star Wars.

You see, a guy named William Shakesman once said: “Brevity is the soul of wit”.
This just means don’t waste my time - you keep it nice and simple. I said stop wasting my time… stop it!

Without saying one word of awkward, boring political dialogue that goes on for ten minutes,

What exactly is "political dialogue"?
If it's the political equivalent of "techno babble" (i.e. dialogue containing a lot of technological elements and actions that, themselves, don't carry any dramatic weight (even if the larger goal they serve does - like the Enterprise not getting blown up)), then it's obviously misapplied here.

If, on the other hand, something like "we must depose the President - call the Secret Service" counts as "political dialogue", then the term is rendered meaningless just as "techno babble" would be if its meaning were to be expanded to include "we must diffuse the bomb - cut the red cable" (where every technological element carries dramatic weight - a high-stakes objective, and a suspense-filled action to achieve it).


So semantics aside, the relevant question here is whether the political elements featured in the dialogue in this sequence, are simultaneously (if not primarily) dramatic elements - and, hence, the dialogue itself primarily (if not exclusively) serves drama, rather than "political" exposition:





Viceroy: "Yes of course - as you know, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive the ambassadors."


The "blockade" is made up out of "deadly battleships"; the "ambassadors" are the lead characters who've come to end it.
It's considered an "alarming event" (enough to make the chancellor circumvent the legitimate official debates by secretly sending 2 Jedi to put an end to it) - the battleships are deadly, filled with creepy looking battle droids, and are surrounding a small defenseless planet.

The head of this potentially menacing operation assures the Jedi that it's "legal", in conjunction with promising them hospitality and safety - his slimy tone of voice heavily implying that he's nowhere as legitimate as he claims, and has something to hide: automatically casting doubts on the ambassadors' safety (and also creating additional unease about the dangerous military group, under the leadership of this guy, surrounding that defenseless planet).


In other words... this isn't about what some robed penguins in an office somewhere far away think about the legality of some trade routes - it's about the possible threat presented by a shady armed organization, behind the appearence of safety.)




Obiwan: "How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands?"
Quigon: "These Federation types are cowards - the negotiations will be short."

Gunray being a "viceroy" of "trade" isn't relevant here, that's just his title - Obiwan calls him "this trade viceroy", as opposed to "the Trade Viceroy", conveying that he's a relatively new presence on the Jedi's radar.
The "chancellor's demands" aren't to reduce the milk trade price by 14% - it's essentially to GTFO with their armed warships and leave the small planet alone.

The "negotiations" won't just be "short" - they'll also mainly consist of Nute Gunray shitin it and caving in to authority.

Quigon expresses his confidence/nonchalance about these "negotiations" with dry humor and a slight bravado.
He's also shown as the more knowledgeable/experienced in this master-apprentice dynamic, whereas Obiwan is naturally more uncertain and inquiring.



Obiwan: "Is it in their nature to make us wait this long?"
Quigon: "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute."

This obviously isn't about the "trivial" "trade dispute", but more about the non-trivial, non-trade-dispute fishy part behind it - and they don't just sit and wait, they're wondering why they're being made to wait this long.
"They sit down in a conference room, warily drink tea that is given to them, and wait unusually and suspiciously long to end a trade dispute at the expense of something that looks like my ex-wife while discussing how everything feels fishy."






Then there's the rest of the dialogue, containing nothing "political" at all / in the first place:

Obiwan: "I have a bad feeling about this."
Obiwan: "It's not about the mission master, it's something elsewhere... elusive."

More worry/mystery.


Quigon: "Don't center on your anxieties Obi-Wan, keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
Obiwan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future!"
Quigon: "But not at the expense of the moment - be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan."

More characterization / character dynamic (well, actually the first establishing lines), some spiritual teaching connected to what's happening.










Conclusion:
Every single line spoken in the opening sequence is there to convey unease, mystery or tension about the current scenario, and establish the characters - this is called "dramatic dialogue", as opposed to "political".

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 3

Without saying one word of awkward, boring political dialogue that goes on for ten minutes, we know everything we need to know, just by the visuals.

We get a sense of how small and ill-equipped the rebels are, and how large and powerful the Empire is. The low angle implies dominance, and the length of the Star Destroyer implies the long reach of the Empire.

This shot says everything we need to know without saying one word!

The EpI opening uses a combination of dynamic establishing shots, colors, score / sound effects and dramatic dialogue / acting to establish the main protagonists and main antagonists and create tension, atmosphere and a sense of mystery around the scenario that kicks off the plot - and there's nothing about RLM's sloppy, tone deaf analysis/description that manages to make a compelling case against this type of opening.







Or critique its actual execution, for that matter - with a disjointed, vacuum-dwelling observation of a "flat angle" in an interior shot (without any juxtapositions to interior non-flat angles from the EpIV opening) as a lone remnant of what could've been something approaching a coherent point.

In fact, this is so genius, I have a feeling that George Lucas had nothing to do with it, and probably fought against putting it in the movie.

Looks like he finally prevailed in the next movie, though.





So the SW opening shot doesn't "merely" "set a mood", or pace - it's full-blown visual storytelling that uses shapes and composition to not just "convey", but communicate concrete information about the premise of the whole story:
A blade-shaped, long reaching evil enemy ship is chasing the tiny rebel ship in a domineering low angle.




Does the same apply to ESB? What does the SD flying towards the camera, in that angle, communicate concretely? That the Empire is creeping in on the protagonists, a slow knife? Does the literal... "angle", imply that things are gonna be a bit weird this time? Why is it from above? Is the half further from the camera being light and illuminated, implying that the Empire or Vader are half-good?
What's the concrete symbolism of the probe droid dispatching shot? Now the SD is shown from below again (similar to SW's tractor beam shot), and the probes are hectically flying out of it in various directions... which is literally what's happening, they're searching for the rebels everywhere. What exactly do the camera angles symbolize there?


One of them finds its way into a remote, secluded ice planet in the middle of nowhere, and what follows is a moody, strangely melancholic montage of the probe protruding deeper and deeper into this lonely, depressing plain of cold snowy nothingness.
This 2nd half of the opening sequence conveys the lengths the Empire goes to in order to find the rebels, and the lengths the rebels had to go to in order to hide.

Because this part is a "SW planet arrival montage sequence", however, it's most sensibly compared to others of its kind: such as the Coruscant arrival sequence from the opening of EpII, or the Coruscant arrival sequence from the end of EpII - both comparable to this one in specific ways.
...So naturally those weren't even looked at.


Hence, back to the 1st half: where are the genius shapes and camera angles communicating the premise of the movie in such a clear, concise, concrete fashion?
Does it accomplish anything more than establishing an atmosphere?

Seems like that kind of direct, visual language/symbolism isn't to any degree a requirement for a great, let alone decent opening shot/sequence - although not necessarily a "bonus" either: rather, one of the several valid artistic choices that one can decide to go with in a particular case (being a first installment in a new franchise and universe + designed as a punchy, no-nonsense action adventure, might certainly play a role in going with that approach).


So not only does the review neglect to make any sort of case for it being a requirement, that implication is also kind of directly contradicted by the ESB opening.









Another comparison that had to be made in this context, but wasn't, would've been to the EpVI opening - unquestionably the one of the 3 that EpI's was directly shaped after, its directly comparable similarities include:
-being an extended arrival sequence of a shuttle on board of a large battle station
-"asking for permission to land"
-action music, increase of pace etc. after said permission

Unlike the EpI opening, however:
-its dialogue (during the arrival itself) is purely technical and carries no dramatic or narrative weight - the whole thing is essentially moody "military procedural porn", an evil version of the Zion landing sequence from Matrix 2
-while the SD being shown in an almost identical fashion as in SW doesn't seem to carry any particular significance, the very first shot does reveal the eerie, haunting, "uncertain feeling" image of the half-completed death star - setting up the film's climax and the Emperor's trap



A comparison of these openings could've been insightful (given proper execution).

So this comparison of openings is a small example of the overall styles of both films.

Unlike EpI, SW doesn't rely on "political"/technical dialogue to establish important plot points (lol)?
Unlike EpI's establishing shots which merely serve atmosphere, those in SW are all full of visual symbolism?

The original trilogy was a modern day homage to the classic adventure serials of the past - the kind I used to watch when I was in my 40’s? Good vs. Evil, the classic hero on a journey, the adventurous rogue, a damsel in distress, the wise old sage, gay robots, and an epic quest of discovery.

Oh.

So what do classic archetypes and larger themes have to do with what had just been discussed?

The new movies are about shoving as much crap into each shot as possible.
This is part of the reason why I find the Special Edition so fucking offensive. Cause you’re into what’s happening in the movie, and they keep shoving more **** on the screen to distract you. It reminds me of a child waving his arms in the background for attention - doesn’t Lucas realize that cluttering the frame up with **** is NOT what makes Star Wars good?

How is the EpI opening an "example" of "the new movies" cluttering up the frame with shite? This description doesn't apply to either the establishing shots here or the ship interiors, all of them quite minimalistic - even the action doesn't have all that many enemies and blasters flying through the frame, certainly not much more than the shootouts from SW...


It has also nothing to do with any character archetypes - this isn't any kind of juxtaposition at all, and also entirely disconnected from the preceding segment.

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 4a

Also, moments earlier the Jedi willingly drank tea that was given to them – while discussing how everything felt fishy.

Qui-Gon: "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute."

Hey, you guys got any rat poison lying around? Put it in the tea! Put it in the tea! They will drink it, put it in the

Quigon's assumption that Darth Maul was after the queen, isn't based on evidence, and makes no sense:

Had that been true, Maul would've just attacked the ship instead of going after the experienced Jedi first.

Also, Quigon doesn't know about Sidious, and in the first scene on board of the TF ship he said he didn’t sense anything odd.

This self-contradiction stems from the movie contradicting itself between the first two Jedi scenes on board of the TF ship:

1st scene:
Obiwan: "I have a bad feeling about this."
Quigon: "I don't sense anything."
Obiwan: "It's not about the mission master, it's something elsewhere... elusive."
Quigon: "Don't center on your anxieties Obi-Wan, keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
Obiwan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future!"
Quigon: "But not at the expense of the moment - be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan."
Obiwan: "Yes, master. How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands?"
Quigon: "These Federation types are cowards - the negotiations will be short."

2nd scene:
Obiwan: "Is it in their nature to make us wait this long?"
Quigon: "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute."


Obiwan's character and attitude towards the situation is consistent between the two scenes: he's an inquiring, perhaps somewhat naive apprentice who listens to his mentors; something about the situation feels wrong to him, however he can't quite put a finger on it.

Quigon's, however, is radically different, and inconsistent, between the two scenes:
in the 1st, he senses nothing wrong, brushes off Obiwan's concerns ascribing them to his yet undeveloped senses, and expresses confidence and bravado about defeating the "cowards";
in the 2nd, he not only shares Obiwan's worries, but even corroborates them with his own superior, more concrete perception - the "fear" he senses is treated as a reason for concern, not confidence and bravado.


The 2nd Quigon is going to remain for the first half of the movie, expressing growing awareness of the dark side, and even showing concern over Anakin's exceptional talents.
The 1st Quigon is going to return, in a similar form, in the second half of the movie - by "outsourcing" those concerns to the Council and Obiwan, himself apparently not sensing what they do.

So this comparison of openings is a small example of the overall styles of both films.

So while RLM's invalid observations didn't amount to being examples of much of anything, this character inconsistency within the opening sequence actually is an example of the same character inconsistency in the rest of the movie.

Completely oblivious to any of this, RLM proceed to cite these 2 scenes at 2 different points to (incorrectly) identify 2 unrelated "plot holes" - while ironically missing the actual plot hole between those two scenes.











Then, there's a second major inconsistency in this sequence - between the Jedi scenes, and the Neimoidian scenes:

So the Jedis are there to do what exactly? According to the opening title crawl it was to settle a dispute over the taxation of trade routes… oh.
So what makes the Jedi Knights experts in Intergalactic Trade Laws?

Education - that's of course if discussing trade laws is actually what they're there for in the first place:



Nute Gunray: "What... what did you say?"
TC-14: "The ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe."
Stunted Slime: "I knew it. They're here to force a settlement!"
Nute Gunray: "Distract them - I will contact Lord Sidious."
Stunted Slime: "Are you brain dead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi! Send the droid."

Stunted Slime: "This scheme of yours has failed, Lord Sidious. The blockade is finished. We dare not go against the Jedi."
Darth Sidious: "[...]. This turn of events is unfortunate; we must accelerate our plans. Begin landing your troops."
Nute Gunray: "My lord! Is that... legal?"
Darth Sidious: "I will make it legal."
Nute Gunray: "And the Jedi?"
Darth Sidious: "The Chancellor should never have brought them into this! Kill them immediately!"


So according to these scenes, the ambassadors being Jedi Knights is something unexpected and extraordinary - and clearly hasn't been announced to the Neimoidians.
Based on the Naimoidians' and Sidious' conclusions, as well as these circumstances, they're here to skip/circumvent all the debates and trade laws, and essentially intimidate/force/hypnotize them into backing off and ending the blockade.



Obiwan: "I have a bad feeling about this."
Quigon: "I don't sense anything."
Obiwan: "It's not about the mission master, it's something elsewhere... elusive."

Obiwan: "Is it in their nature to make us wait this long?"
Quigon: "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute."

A possibly unjustified bad feeling about being secretly sent to circumvent negotiations and force someone to comply? How about justified?
An unexpected amount of fear from someone you've just arrived to intimidate? Or even just someone who wasn't expecting to be confronted with Jedi, who clearly have a reputation they can't be, themselves, unaware of? Well the first conclusion would be that they're onto you - not that they're "unusually afraid" for some nebulous unknown reason.


Obiwan: "How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands?"
Quigon: "These Federation types are cowards - the negotiations will be short."

The "chancellor's demands" - so the pressure is coming from the political authority, not them as enforcers.
Plus, if their mission had been to force or intimidate, both would be aware of it - Obiwan wouldn't asking that kind of questions, and Quigon wouldn't have to tell him that their "negotiations" would involve some sort of "fear". (And if it had been to hypnotize, Obiwan wouldn't be asking "how they'll deal with the demands".)


No, according to these two scenes, Jedi being sent as negotiators/ambassadors/diplomats is nothing unusual - they sense something unusual, and ascribe it to external factors, something to do with the TF.
And their mission is to relay the "chancellor's demands" - not as "neutral" negotiators, but still as negotiators, and not enforcer thug hypnotists: the pressure's coming from political authority, and Quigon is simply familiar enough with the TF, and the known circumstances etc., to know that they'll fold under that pressure quickly.
(Even if them being Jedi might be a contributing factor to said fear, the dialogue still excludes this from being an official or planned component of their mission - rather, at most, something Quigon's factored in due to his superior experience / familiarity with the TF, and perhaps a certain mischievous attitude/character.)

[Standardon-Nameaux]

Post 5, Pairt 4b








Ironically, the Jedi's hooded entrance only makes sense within the "Neimoidian reality":

1) Either as a disguise, to conceal their identities as Jedi from the Neimoidians all the way up until they meet in person.
That intent is then "thwarted" by TC-14.
2) Or, as a way to intentionally tip off the Neimoidians through TC-14 (either by making her think they're trying to disguise themselves, or by acting "mysterious and Jedi-typical" without actually saying they're Jedi), to build up fear and uncertainty in them way before they meet.
That plan then ends up backfiring on them, having made it unaware of the TF's conspiratorial underbelly, how much it has to hide, and how empowered it is.

(This second reading is indirectly supported/suggested, though in no way necessitated, by the "tell them we wish to board at once" - itself already serving to make the TF feel under pressure, their behavior upon boarding would then be a continuation and escalation of this tactic.)


Whether they're concealing themselves or putting on a show, it's clearly tied to the droid's presence, as they take off their hoods as soon as she leaves the room.
However, in the next scene, she's serving them tea and they're just sitting there normal, showing zero signs of having done any off-beat hood thing at any point - this doesn't make sense in itself, it doesn't make sense if the hoods had been a "disguise", and it doesn't make sense if they'd been to tip her off (without making her aware they were trying to tip her off, naturally).


This further "corroborates" the notion that the hooded entrance only really makes sense in the context of the 2 Neimoidian scenes, rather than the 2 Jedi scenes.

So when two guys wearing robes come on board their ship, Rosie the Robot just assumes they are Jedi Knights and tells the Shatnerians - even though almost every single character wears robes in Star Wars. Then somehow this robot knows or thinks they are Jedi Knights. Hey idiots, so much for the disguise! Even a protocol droid could sniff you out.
Maybe it’s not a disguise, but whatever

With this self-contradictory, nebulous framework as a backdrop, making any "logical" judgements about how much sense it made for the robot to make that conclusion, is pointless - what has to be dissected, is the self-contradictory, nebulous framework itself, which RLM have shown to have zero awareness of aside from "disguise/whatever".

Though it's kinda common sense that the mysterious demeanor with the hoods over the faces was what led to this "hunch" - not just wearing robes.
Since, you know, that's how the droid saw them before telling the Nimoydians - and the scene made a rather big deal out of them walking in "in disguise" and then taking off their masks and "revealing" who they are.

So the Shatnerians immediately inform this mystery guy that they’re running this scam with – a guy who looks like Satan – that Jedis are on the ship, and of course, so that we can have an action scene, he tells them to kill the Jedi.

Earlier on, the suspense build-up before said action scene, was described as "eventually get to the mindnumbing action" - with that level of tone-deafness as a... backdrop, judgements along the lines of "this action scene just cheaply exists for its own sake" lack any credibility, in addition to already lacking an argument.

You see they never once went into the room to say “hello” to the Jedi, and that they’ll be right with them,

Well, they said they were scared of that, didn't they.

but they tell Palpatine that they are Jedis. And then they try to gas them to death based solely on the hunch of a droid. Who’s fucking with my medicine

Characters coming to a "hunch" conclusion (while it's not clear how logically unjustified said "hunch" was in the first place) that the audience already knows to be correct, isn't too huge of a problem from a storytelling perspective:
the lack of drama from the easy conclusion can be perceived as unsatisfying, but viewers generally don't care about "what if the hunch had been wrong? we knew it wasn't, but THEY didn't!".

The problem here is the nebulous, self-contradictory context the hunch was had in (i.e. right after the droid walked out of the room, having just arrived at the conclusion that they're Jedi... they proceed to have a conversation according to which them being Jedi negotiators in that type of situation, isn't supposed to be anything out of the ordinary, or be thought of as such by the TF (who'll proceed to act absolutely shocked at this revelation)), not that they took the hunch seriously.











Finally, the third inconsistency in this segment only lasts half a scene, but still carries some significance:

Obiwan: "I have a bad feeling about this."
Quigon: "I don't sense anything."
Obiwan: "It's not about the mission master, it's something elsewhere... elusive."
Quigon: "Don't center on your anxieties Obi-Wan, keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs."
Obiwan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future!"
Quigon: "But not at the expense of the moment - be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan."
Obiwan: "Yes, master."

How can he have a bad feeling about "this", but "not the mission" they're on at that very moment?
Not only does the second line (and everything that follows after), contradict the first line, it also contradicts the entire plot context - as there is something wrong with "this"/"the mission" (=the TF's intentions), as well as the "something elsewhere elusive" (=Sidious, "the dark side") and the grim distant "future".

After this scene, of course, "Quigon Nr.2" will take over, and proceed to sense all the correct things: an "unusual amount of fear" from the TF, "something else behind this", and a "disturbance in the force" - so this is a local problem, not affecting anything in the rest of the movie.



Amusingly,

Without saying one word of awkward, boring political dialogue that goes on for ten minutes,

this bit can be called "awkward" in that sense - not in style or delivery, but just this weird self-contradiction and how it doesn't match the plot.

However, because this part isn't "political" to any degree, and RLM already have demonstrated an inability to form a single organized thought about this entire sequence, this is not what's being referred to here - neither is it referring to anything else, it's just a random "critical" buzzword with no substance or reality behind it;
at least none the reviewer is aware of.