The Cloning Research Project - a way to retcon Sins Past and TNGSD

[Ozymandias]

The purpose of this thread was to elaborate how, using what we are given, could Gwen have survived TNGSD. From that point forward, there are several ways to use the character, if she were to return. We have left those alternatives open on purpose. Beyond that, the story proposed has deep implications for Harry Osborn and Warren Miles.

The story was mainly written by vixx, and I jumped on board to lend a hand. There’re also some ideas from other members of that forum, to a lesser degree. I was asked to post our conclusions here and that’s exactly what I’m doing. The main author may also participate here, but he believes that his thoughts on the matter are already written down, in the original thread.

The events that we outlined, are now presented in chronological order, referencing key ASM issues as an anchor:

Before ASM #31

After the death of his wife, Norman struggles to be a good father to Harry, but excels at running Oscorp. This outlet, not only acts as an escape from the personal life he knows is failing, but fuels the personality traits (i.e. delusions of grandeur, aggressiveness) which lead him to believe that he, personally, is immune from failure and can practically will something into creation, simply by being involved. This mindset, not only puts him on the path towards attempting things most would consider impossible, it also provides an “end justifying the means” method of execution.

How is not important, or really not too far of a reach, but after meeting Warren the two set down a path of genetic research, that would ultimately culminate with a viable method for cloning humans.

Warren, a teacher, genius, and man of "pure science" leads the project, aims at solving problems he sees in the world (organ transplants, genetic defects, etc.). While he has his pride, his motives are pure.

Norman, has two goals (much like he has two sides to his personality): power, money and glory for himself, his legacy and Oscorp; he envisions a perfect Norman clone, thinking it would be excellent publicity. However, secretly, he wonders if it's a way to bring back his wife, for Harry as much as for himself. Norman wants to be a good dad... he just fails, at every turn.

They form a plan, using Oscorp resources and contacts, to bulk out Warren’s theories into testable experiments. The key to the success of Warren’s cloning theory, exists in separate parts that must be blended together:

• The first portion is transferring consciousness from an organic host – the memories, experiences and personality traits that make us who we are – into a stable medium that can be imprinted accurately to a new host, on demand. That host may be organic or not, but the process would need to work much in the way one can replicate a computer file.
• The second is successful, physical replication of the host, with small enhancements to repair or improve upon defects at a genetic level and allowing for the memory transfer. Warren envisions these blank copies, as a way to solve problems – such as genetic defects and shortages of organ transplants – without consideration for the ethical dilemma plaguing genetic research. To him, creating an organic body is no different than making GMO food.

Building on Stromm's earlier work, the best example of duplicating consciousness available – and with notes readily accessible through Oscorp involvement – the first task falls to a team led by Gerhard Winkler.

Warren leads the team tasked with replicating the hosts.

The teams will work closely together to ensure that their work can, ultimately, be combined successfully.

While the theoretical phases show promise, progression to an exploratory human testing phase (including Osborn and Warren’s samples) does not go well. Unlike early successes with lab experiments, computer simulations and the animal testing rounds, the samples either do not form correctly and/or decay rapidly.

Between ASM #31 and ASM #61

Under pressure from Norman, Warren expands the testing looking for more data to explain the results. He enlists students to collect DNA samples from, as part of an extra credit assignment, figuring that college is a very diverse environment and students, properly motivated, aren’t going to ask too many questions. Like many students, Gwen Stacy submits her profile along with the others. Peter Parker does not (these aren't the cell samples, we saw Serba collecting, in the flashback from ASM #148).

Despite a large, diverse sample size, the new round of testing routinely fails except for one sample (Gwen’s). Warren has a theory, that this sample has a unique genetic makeup which allows her DNA to survive the rigorous process, that causes the others to fail. This genetic anomaly is quite rare, but doesn’t manifest in a meaningful way outside his lab (not X-gene related). For all purposes, it’s from a normal person with a remarkable genetic trait (similar to, say, smokers who never develop cancer). He’s confident he can extract this over time, and incorporate it into other samples.

Warren shares the results with Norman, and they detail out the technologies and processes, the program will be run under.

Despite Warren’s objections, Norman immediately digs into the study, identifies the donor and researches Gwen, building a full profile and dropping it on a shocked Warren at a staff meeting. He’s surprised to learn Norman has gone the extra mile. They argue. For Warren, she’s irrelevant. (What are you going to do? Grab her off the street and force her to be a guinea pig? ) For Norman, knowing everything about the girl that the whole program, his reputation and billions of research dollars depend on, is very relevant. Warren backs down and they put together a detailed plan to move forward.

After the initial trials, which focus on working up to a complex organism, there will be three phases:

• grow a clone from the successful sample (Gwen) .
• isolate the “unique” Gwen trait, then use it to create a clone from an unsuccessful sample.
• at Norman’s request, create a hybrid strain of Gwen/Norman DNA to produce a couple of viable Norman based clones. One male and one female; which also ensures they account for differences in gender. For reasons unknown to Warren, Norman’s sample does not react like any on record. (Norman provided a plausible cover story, as to why his blood is all screwed up).

Once these stages are complete, a fourth stage would be a pure Norman clone, to be attempted only after when the limitations, in physical replication, have been overcome.

Phase one progresses quickly, and after repeated attempts, culminates in a perfect “blank” Gwen being created. It shows no signs of disintegration, encountered in the earlier attempts, and remains intact to be studied.

Phase two is running almost concurrently, and significant progress has been made.

Phase three is proving more difficult, as Osborn's DNA is different. Discussions with Norman have provided some answers, but not to Warren's satisfaction. They have argued over how much "external" DNA will be required to create stable hybrids.

The “mind” team has initially progressed quickly, adapting Stromm's work and building a working prototype, of the memory control device, which will transfer consciousness from a computer, to the clone. It can work independently of an organic source. But integration with the other project proves difficult, it's slow work.

Around this time a pair of 50/50 hybrid clones are completed, and monitored.

Having limited test subjects, Warren often used himself as a case study (once certain safety thresholds were met). Prior to dying, Winkler helped Warren transfer his consciousness to a computer, for use with his clones and integration progress and testing. His profile is studied and modified as needed, using Winkler’s memory manipulation techniques. (As a security precaution, all reference to certain aspects of the program, including Norman’s involvement, are removed from the computer profile. Norman is concerned about espionage). Warren’s is the only fully operational clone, they can hope to make at the time, as they only have Warren’s consciousness loaded for transfer. He came to the conclusion that, without a family and being at the lab every day, he was the best candidate.

The first integrated clone (Warren) is finishing up. While the physical decay process isn’t as good as the Gwen clones, it’s much improved. (Happening only after death). The mental instability and eventual decay is still a significant issue, but shown signs of improvement with enormous effort.

Norman, Winkler and Warren are meeting regularly and have many plans and theories, on how to overcome project limitations. One topic they seem to avoid is how access to the real Gwen, will sooner or later be a requirement, in order to scale and improve the project's economic viability.

Warren, supported by Winkler, states they just need time to figure it out, like they already did with the bodies. They identified that the memory transfer would deteriorate (similarly to the physical disintegration). Warren further hypothesised that the Gwen sample could be the blueprint to overcoming this deficiency, but the amount of time, resources and access to large amounts of DNA would make pursuing it immoral and prohibitive. Alternatively, he pushes to use himself as the sample, as he’s successfully cloned himself and implanted that clone with some memories. Winkler agreed on the problem, but not the moral issue about the solution. Norman will come to not care at all about anyone standing in his way.

[Ozymandias]

ASM #61

Winkler dies suddenly, while the project still is in the "memory integration phase". Norman is very concerned, and has key personnel being zapped (memories tampered) to install loyalty and remove details, putting distance between the project and Norman's involvement.

Around ASM #66 - SSM #2

A meeting with Norman goes very badly. They argue bitterly over the limitations of the mental process and its moral implications. Warren grills Norman on his blood, as the story given doesn’t really support what’s happening in the lab. Warren is confident the consciousness problems can be solved through a different process, if other requirements - like memory reprogramming - are dropped. After discovering that Norman has been zapping the staff, Warren threats to leave the project. Norman panics. The Warren computer profile (the record used to imprint new Warren clones) is updated to remove all references to Norman, and identify only Warren as being in charge, working under an independent Oscorp grant. A physically advanced clone, is imprinted with that modified memory profile. Norman releases the Warren clone from its stasis chamber and is sent back to the university, to pick up Warren's life. Warren is loaded into a stasis chamber (too important to kill, to moral to continue and too dangerous to release).

Citing the hardware projects as successful, Norman disbands the remaining members of the teams, leaving just Alison Mongrain as curator. She will monitor the clones. Alison creates a couple more Warren clones to staff the lab. They are loaded with his consciousness from the previously existing template. The lab systems automatically monitor, and routinely replace it, with updates gained from the data it reads.

The lab is wiped (no history of Norman, twins, original DNA samples, etc.). All reference to Osborn, his blood, work in progress and the hybrid clones are altered or removed. They are marked as destroyed per protocol, but instead sent to a difference facility overseas.

ASM #97

Harry's drug use is discovered. Norman is disgusted about the drugs, and his son’s “weak” genes. Over time, Norman has gotten cruel towards Harry, especially as work on the clones proceeds. He places all the failure of being a parent on Harry’s actions. (Note: being a student and friend of Gwen, he was tested and, like most samples, was identified as a borderline candidate, genetic predisposition disqualified him for the research). Norman had grudgingly accepted this. In a previous conversation, Warren told him about how they could always revisit the topic of memory tampering “in a few years”, once the technology was advanced enough. Now going trough the second Green Goblin relapse, he tries unsuccessfully to "fix" him with the brainwashing machine.

Writing Harry off as weak minded and an unworthy heir, he focuses more attention on the twins, as a path to worthy heirs and to speed up creation of his own clone. While at some level he cares about Harry, but he’s being eaten alive by thoughts of power and legacy… his burst of paternal concern is the best, and last, thing he does for Harry.

ASM #121

Norman zaps Harry again – but this time is not just about the drugs – but every little thing he has ever wanted Harry to do differently. He programs him with massive amounts of "improvements" and instructions – basically trying to rewrite Harry to be like him. Harry responds to the reprogramming poorly (explaining his actions, leading to him turning into the Green Goblin II), most likely a combination of being completely overloaded by the amount of data, drugs weakening his system, and just being genetically predisposed to not respond well to this kind of process.

A drug relapse cover story is given.

Norman grabs Gwen, drops her at the lab, dressing up the blank clone as her replacement. Gwen is put in stasis. The lab is operated by the Warren clones, under Alison’s supervision.

The Green Goblin picks a fight on the bridge and she's "killed" as planned. Norman dies unexpectedly, but goes to Europe all the same.

[Carabas]

What would be the point of doing this?

[Cosmic Spider]

HaH! I had a similar idea once; Although I didn't work it out to the great degree you guys have.

My sense of the All New All Looney MU is that is a sort of a grand experiment. Y'know, Let's throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

Perhaps Marvel should simply bring back Gwen616. No clones, No alternate Universes, No grisly resurrections or satanic rituals. Just a slight Retcon of a Retcon.

Long ago, Before the Horror that is OMD, Marvel made a slightly less objectionable decision. They brought back Norman Osborn at the end of the Clone Wars. I have always felt that was poor choice on their part. The way I squared it was to assume that Norman(2) was a Clone. I believe that the original Norman(1)'s Goblin Persona was secretly bankrolling Miles Warren's experiments and acquired the cloning technology for his own use. Ordinarily, That would be that...But, Sins Past reared it's ugly head.

Why would the goblin formula in Norman(1)'s blood cause his children to age uncontrollably? Both the Goblin Formula and it's Ultimate Universe counterpart(OZ) seem to have powerful regenerative properties. If However, Norman(1)'s offspring were born to a growth accelerated organism; Such as a Clone of Gwen Stacey, H'mmm!

Basically, I am saying that Norman(1) Kidnapped the original Gwen Stacey prior to the events of Sins Past and that she somehow escaped and went into hiding. Meanwhile Norman(1) produced an early Gwen Model T and proceeded to use It/Her in a plot against Peter.

I don't really think that MARVEL should bring back Gwen, But if they did; It should be the real Gwen Stacy.

My idea is that Gwen has been hiding in Europe with the help of her family. After all these years of hiding; Her anger at having Her life destroyed by two costumed madmen has overwhelmed Her fear. Perhaps because Peter; As the head of Parker Industries is now a Worldwide celebrity. He is inescapable.

I imagine Gwen showing up on Peter's doorstep and demanding answers.

[Vixx]

What would be the point of doing this?

For me, it's a couple of things -

First, I never liked the Norman reveal at the end of the clone saga, and felt it was a blatant cheat. If he lived, I would like her to as well - but could live without that happening. I stopped reading for years - and got stuck in an airport with nothing to do for 5hrs. Ended up reading a book for the first time in a decade - Sins Past.

I can't believe that ever went to print... Even all these years later. (OFD is a close second)..

I work as a project manager, and analyze / interpret a lot of big data... So it just was interesting to see if enough data was sprinkled about the books to come to a rational, plausible conclusion that explains these stories in a different way - to reinterpret the impact. It's easy to say something didn't happen; and while I hated the content of Sins - the story mechanism was researched well and looked like fun. Plus - These are great exercises for interns and such to use familiar examples to extrapolate defendable conclusions. It's just a fun exercise.

I've caught up on a lot of the back issues - and three things kind of stuck out - 1) the supporting cast has been thinned out in recent years considerably - many in forgettable ways 2) the stories have gotten away from being grounded in reality and 3) the impact of the bad stories ( Sins, OFD, etc) outweighs the good stories by a large margin. Love the charector, always will - and don't mind evolution - but think it would benefit greatly from some surgical streamlining, especially the old stuff, and getting back to its roots.

LSS: was a fun little project, and came to the conclusion she could be returned / sins removed if they wanted - with what's been shared. What they'd actually do with her afterwards.. *shrug* Point now is to see if any minute details were overlooked and just enjoy it for what it is

[Vixx]

HaH! I had a similar idea once; Although I didn't work it out to the great degree you guys have.



I don't really think that MARVEL should bring back Gwen, But if they did; It should be the real Gwen Stacy.

My idea is that Gwen has been hiding in Europe with the help of her family. After all these years of hiding; Her anger at having Her life destroyed by two costumed madmen has overwhelmed Her fear. Perhaps because Peter; As the head of Parker Industries is now a Worldwide celebrity. He is inescapable.

I imagine Gwen showing up on Peter's doorstep and demanding answers.

I think that makes a lot of sense; assembled a rough timeline as kind of a litmus test to see if survival was practical and came to two concussions 1) if she's sleeping with Norman and bore children that are affected by the serum, and that serum at Norman / Strom levels has the ability to essentially cheat death - she could regenerate naturally, it would just take a very long time or 2) if that was a lark by Norman; he still had ample time to do a swap - and by connecting him to Warren, perfect looking clones within his reach.

I agree - if she escaped captivity - I think she'd flee and hide out after reading her obituary, constantly looking over her shoulder ... She had a lot of bad things happen in a short time, and didn't appear to be to keen on dating Spider-Man.

[FF-Fighter]

I don't think the First Gwen (No Clone) should be alive. Her loss is what made Peter a better hero. If it was just a clone, that'd be a waste.

[nose norton]

I had a similar idea once.

I had a different one, but I could see this one working. Unfortunately, if Marvel were to bring Gwen back, I'm sure they'd go for something worse that doesn't even dress SP.

I don't think the First Gwen (No Clone) should be alive. Her loss is what made Peter a better hero. If it was just a clone, that'd be a waste.

A better here how? What new protocols did he incorporate, to ensure the safety of those close to him?

[FF-Fighter]

I had a different one, but I could see this one working. Unfortunately, if Marvel were to bring Gwen back, I'm sure they'd go for something worse that doesn't even dress SP.



A better here how? What new protocols did he incorporate, to ensure the safety of those close to him?

I didn't say saftey. The only thing he can really do to be safe with people is to not have his identity revealed. What I said was a better hero with even more sense of responsibility than what his uncle taught him. You can see this blatantly in "No One Dies".
Undoing Gwens death would make fans (I for one) cheated.

[nose norton]

I didn't say saftey. The only thing he can really do to be safe with people is to not have his identity revealed. What I said was a better hero with even more sense of responsibility than what his uncle taught him. You can see this blatantly in "No One Dies".
Undoing Gwens death would make fans (I for one) cheated.

You're right, you didn't say it. I thought that was your point, and now that you mention "No One Dies"... well it still looks like it. "No One Dies" was about expanding the safety net to everyone who ever came in close proximity. (I'm assuming that he cared more about those closer to him, because that's how people work.) Did that mean he was more responsible? Allegedly, but I don't see how a decision triggered by Marla Jameson's death, has much to do with Gwen's.

[Vixx]

I don't think the First Gwen (No Clone) should be alive. Her loss is what made Peter a better hero. If it was just a clone, that'd be a waste.

I struggled with this a bit - as they haven't just left her memory alone in 616 like they have with Ben.

Do you feel this still holds up after 40 years of flashbacks, loads of "fake" Gwen stories, clones, more clones, Norman's return, the stalkings, a supporting cast that's been through the ringer and back, and major charector revisions (ie sins past) ?

[Cosmic Spider]

I had a different one, but I could see this one working. Unfortunately, if Marvel were to bring Gwen back, I'm sure they'd go for something worse that doesn't even dress SP.

Oy, Now I'm having Flash-Forwards. Gwen Stacy returns as a Super Villain determined to destroy Spider-Man for his role in the death of Her one true love, Norman.

I struggled with this a bit - as they haven't just left her memory alone in 616 like they have with Ben.

Do you feel this still holds up after 40 years of flashbacks, loads of "fake" Gwen stories, clones, more clones, Norman's return, the stalkings, a supporting cast that's been through the ringer and back, and major character revisions (ie sins past) ?

I look at it like this too. I'm not even doing this Clonespiracy thing. If it isn't in AMAZING or RYV Part 2, I'm not reading it.

That said, What harm could it possibly do to bring back Gwen at this point?

[nose norton]

I'm not even doing this Clonespiracy thing. If it isn't in AMAZING or RYV Part 2, I'm not reading it.

That said, What harm could it possibly do to bring back Gwen at this point?

Not that I'm encouraging you to read it, but I think it's supposed to start in ASM.

I guess the harm, from Marvel's standpoint, is the potential for a long term relationship. They still struggle, with the un-marriage blowback.

[Cosmic Spider]

Not that I'm encouraging you to read it, but I think it's supposed to start in ASM.

I guess the harm, from Marvel's standpoint, is the potential for a long term relationship. They still struggle, with the un-marriage blowback.

My view is a little different. I feel that the worst they could do is tell a boring or forgettable story.

On the other hand, There is potential for a truly dramatic tale. Where has Gwen been all these years? Did Norman(1) reveal Peter's identity to Gwen? If so, Did Gwen believe Him?

As Vixx pointed out earlier; Gwen wasn't really a fan of Spider-Man. And if Gwen were to find out that Peter didn't trust Her enough to share his secret, How would she feel? She might still have strong feelings for Peter even after all these years even while wondering whether Peter ever truly cared for her at all.

Or Perhaps; At the end there Gwen did seem to be loosening up on the Spider-Man hate. Is it Possible that Gwen figured out Peter's identity on Her own and was waiting for Peter to tell Her? Perhaps Marvel could publish a sequel to "PARALLEL LIVES" contrasting Gwen's life in hiding to that of Peter and MJ. They could call it "DIVERGENT LIVES" or maybe "THE GIRL WHO LIVED!*

*- A little Hairy Potty humor there. Nothing a little Cabbage and Prune juice won't solve.

[Vixx]

Personally - and it would never happen ... I'd love her to come out of hiding swinging after burning Osborn and everything around him to ashes... As a normal girl.

Gwen Stacy : the girl with the spider tattoo

Not having to see another Brooklyn bridge flashback or Reference alone should be a selling point to even the most ardent holdout ...

I'm still waiting for the "Sins Revealed" arc - where a lot of Norman stuff is revealed to be elaborate schenanigans and Tom foolery... No wonder twins, no sexy time.. No OMD while we are at it .. ��