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  1. #16
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    Hang on.

    Wasn't the Doctor on Star Trek: Enterprise bisexual?

    And has everybody really forgotten Terry Farell's gay kiss on DS9?
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Whether people like or want it in Star Trek is one thing -- that's preference, and I'm not going to tell people what they should/shouldn't like. You don't like Sulu being gay? I don't have a real problem with that. It's the least of my concerns.

    But if it seems like it's being forced into too many things, keep in mind that writers write from what they know, and for a lot of heterosexual people, they only find out that the person right next to them (offspring, sibling, best friend, colleague, teammate, etc) comes out as gay after years and years of being considered "straight." So if it seems forced in media, it's because when someone comes out to a trusted straight person, oftentimes it's a shock. And part of it is the social pressure to be straight at all times. Call it cynicism on the part of studios or producers or something, but that approach in media still comes from a place of their personal experiences, especially from writers who may be ordered to do so, but are trying to handle such a revelation respectfully (to mixed results, but respect nonetheless).

    Even without sexuality, if our lives were fiction, each and every one of us would have at least one event that would seem forced or contrived or something like that. We can make sense of fiction, but not a lot of sense out of life. Fiction is often an interpretation of how we deal with and interpret life, and so as fiction changes, it adapts to reflect the society of its time, even if it's set in the future.
    Nah bro gay people like existing and stuff is too out there.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Hang on.

    Wasn't the Doctor on Star Trek: Enterprise bisexual?

    And has everybody really forgotten Terry Farell's gay kiss on DS9?
    Nope. Phlox was in a polygamous marriage with 3 wives, I believe. I forget the exact amount he had.

    Jadzia Dax's kiss with another woman was in the same class as Kirk and Uhura's kiss. The participants were not in a relationship. With Dax, it was two women who had previously been in a heterosexual marriage prior to being joined with new host bodies. Dax had previously been a man, and her partner was a woman at the time of their marriage. It was a rekindling of those old feelings that manifested in an intimate expression. Dax isn't gay, and isn't even bi. She only ever dated and showed interest in men throughout DS9's run.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And has everybody really forgotten Terry Farell's gay kiss on DS9?
    It was never ever emphasized to even a fraction of her heterosexual relationships, though. 1 kiss does not make it on par with the likes of all the other men in her life, overshadowed most of all by her marriage to Worf. Whatever was behind that kiss with another woman, 99.99% of her romantic interests have been with men.

    It's almost like a girl who kissed another girl in college at a party once, never looked back, dated a whole bunch of guys before happily settling down with Mr. Right a decade later. That girl would most likely not think of herself as gay. Curious at best, but hetero in almost all certainty.
    Last edited by Cyke; 07-15-2016 at 09:38 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Nope. Phlox was in a polygamous marriage with 3 wives, I believe. I forget the exact amount he had.

    Jadzia Dax's kiss with another woman was in the same class as Kirk and Uhura's kiss. The participants were not in a relationship. With Dax, it was two women who had previously been in a heterosexual marriage prior to being joined with new host bodies. Dax had previously been a man, and her partner was a woman at the time of their marriage. It was a rekindling of those old feelings that manifested in an intimate expression. Dax isn't gay, and isn't even bi. She only ever dated and showed interest in men throughout DS9's run.
    So yes, Dax and the other woman had been in a relationship, which is where the kiss came from. What that scene showed us was that neither of them had any misgivings about the sex of their current bodies in rekindling that spark. If Jadzia had a hang up with same sex relationships it would have shown with more trepidation before the kiss or more soul searching afterwards.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #21
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    I think very few people were against having an LGBT character they (and me) just didn't like the way Pegg brought it about with Sulu, it feels forced. Given the history of TOS characters where they had moments of their personal lives exposed there was no indication that Sulu was ever gay and doing it in the nuTrek and explaining it away as a 'Butterfly Effect' from Nero seems like a cheap way to do it.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I actually remember in one of the set visit videos for Beyond they showed that Abrams Sulu had a daughter (presumabely a nod to Demora, seen in Star Trek Generations in the original timeline). Maybe she's adopted in this universe? If she's still in the film that is.

    Film seems to be getting good reviews at this point BTW.


    It's kind of cool that ever "Into Darkness" kind of played things a bit too 'safe' Star Trek wise (Khan, Klingons, the sacrificial "death" scene,the constantly rehashed corrupt Starfleet thing) after '09's changes (Vulcan, for instance) that "Beyond" seems to be taking some chances-not only this but some of the reviews state it's giving things a fresh start a bit again (I haven't seen the movie yet of course, but the previews seem to strongly indicate that the crew loses the Enterprise and gets an older starfleet ship, but judging by the reviews there won't be a "Voyage Home" style reset).

    Kind of wish the next Bond films would do this as well. Casino Royale and Quantum Of Solace tried to be fairly different Bond films (Although with differing degrees of success), but Skyfall, and especially Spectre seemed to be mostly restoring Bond back to the way he was before Casino, with less of an edge, more comedy, gadgets, and of course the classic supporting cast characters.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 07-16-2016 at 06:49 AM.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    So yes, Dax and the other woman had been in a relationship, which is where the kiss came from. What that scene showed us was that neither of them had any misgivings about the sex of their current bodies in rekindling that spark. If Jadzia had a hang up with same sex relationships it would have shown with more trepidation before the kiss or more soul searching afterwards.
    Keep in mind, that in Dax's society (Trill), rejoining/rekindling a relationship with a partner from a previous host isn't uncommon, but it is frowned upon. Things get complicated. The TNG episode "The Host" also dealt with this issue. When Beverly fell and began a relationship with a Trill man, and the symbiote host was then transferred to Riker, and Beverly's feelings transferred to him (even though Beverly has no romantic interest in Riker), and then by episode's end the symbiote is transferred to a Trill woman. At that point Beverly says she can't do it anymore. The changes in bodies, and changes in personality aren't what she fell in love with it. The person she loved is dead, and she has to move on.

    It was the same with Dax and her ex-wife from a previous host, and when Jadzia became Ezri, Worf and Ezri couldn't connect like they had before.

  9. #24
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    It is kind of surprising that it took all the way until 2016. STAR TREK being known for its progressive themes, I thought it would have gotten on board back in the 1990s.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toreador View Post
    I think very few people were against having an LGBT character they (and me) just didn't like the way Pegg brought it about with Sulu, it feels forced. Given the history of TOS characters where they had moments of their personal lives exposed there was no indication that Sulu was ever gay
    Actually, there was little evidence Sulu even HAD a sex life.

    Really not much to retcon, and there's already been far more egregious changes than this, even in this timeline. (cough Cumberbatch cough).

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    It is kind of surprising that it took all the way until 2016. STAR TREK being known for its progressive themes, I thought it would have gotten on board back in the 1990s.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Back in 1991, Roddenberry said that TNG season 5 would introduce a gay character/couple. Jonathan Frakes was down for playing a romantic interest for an episode, also. However, Gene died prior to season 5's debut and things were left in Rick Berman's hands. Berman never followed through with Gene's intention though. His defense, and the defense of other big Trek writers and producers (Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga) was that Trek was a family show, and they didn't want to rock the boat with something overt. They thought about having two guys holding hands in the background (either walking together or at one of the Trek bars), but they just didn't seem right.

    As the years went by and subsequently the new shows (DS9, VOY, ENT) and the movies; it became less and less of a priority to do so. By the time they again considered it, it was in the mid 2000s and nobody cared anymore. Gay characters, couples and same sex kisses had occured on dozens of movies, tv shows (other scifi properties, dramas and sitcoms) on broadcast TV. With Trek seemingly having missed the boat. It ostensibly got to the point of "why do it at all now?" Nobody cares, and it just seems forced and pandering at this point.

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member Last Son's Avatar
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    It shouldn't be forced, since LGBT people exist and there are at least millions of us. Even if you use the argument that Star Trek isn't about romance and sex, that's a lie because we've seen plenty of Star Trek characters romantically involved, in love, having sexual relations. Kirk alone is notorious for being a womanizer be it with human women or alien women.

    To say it's forced is to say interesting stories about LGBT characters are impossible, and there may be a writer that comes along with a good LGBT-themed story that is relevant to the themes of Star Trek and to turn them all down because including LGBT characters is "forced" or "pandering" is plainly and simply bigotry.
    Last edited by Last Son; 07-16-2016 at 05:59 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    Actually, there was little evidence Sulu even HAD a sex life.

    Really not much to retcon, and there's already been far more egregious changes than this, even in this timeline. (cough Cumberbatch cough).
    Same could be said with Uhura. I think the closest she had to a romantic moment was with the salt creature from the 'Man Trap'.

  14. #29
    Mighty Member Da Boat's Avatar
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    I don't know, that guy seems asexual to me, there's no way this guy gets any from one sex or the other.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Boat View Post
    I don't know, that guy seems asexual to me, there's no way this guy gets any from one sex or the other.
    I always thought he was straight from that scene near the end of STAR TREK V:The Final Frontier where him and Chekov were following, and checking out the hindquarters of a Klingon chick. Following her down the hall, and Sulu saying to Pavel, "I think I could like this alliance." ,with a bit of a smile on his face. The following ,and staring ended when they saw her superior, angry looking officer giving quite a maiming glare at the two gents.

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