Weird thought about the Legion and Rebirth

[Patrick Gerard]

I was thinking how we've been assuming Nuperman passed on his powers to Lois/Superwoman. But I was thinking what alternatives there could be and here's one angle:

Legionnaires posed as a variety of missing historical figures. They had Saturn Girl brainwash them into thinking they were those figures and maybe Brainiac 5 supplied some DNA faking nano-tech and power suppression.

So Lar Gand filled in as Superman. Not young Lar but 31st century Lar. And Laurel Kent posed as Lois Lane! But her power suppression got knocked offline. You could tie this in with a number of characters.

[GSman]

I was thinking how we've been assuming Nuperman passed on his powers to Lois/Superwoman. But I was thinking what alternatives there could be and here's one angle:

Legionnaires posed as a variety of missing historical figures. They had Saturn Girl brainwash them into thinking they were those figures and maybe Brainiac 5 supplied some DNA faking nano-tech and power suppression.

So Lar Gand filled in as Superman. Not young Lar but 31st century Lar. And Laurel Kent posed as Lois Lane! But her power suppression got knocked offline. You could tie this in with a number of characters.

So would they have done the same for New 52 Booster Gold?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Interesting stuff. Was there anything in the books that pointed you in that direction?

[Tony]

I'm for getting the Legion back but I'd prefer it was done cleanly. The relaunch (and I think it needs one) shouldn't be tied to something like new 52 Superman that already has controversial opinions and conflicting view points associated with it. I'm still worried about what writer will bring them back. On the one hand Hickman is popular so it would likely be successful yet I dislike his writing at Marvel so probably wouldn't care for his DC.

[SuperCrab]

Why can't new52 Superman just be Superman? Aka Clark Kent, biological son of Jor-El, adopted son of Jonathan Kent (the real one, not the kid)?

Making him a former member of the legion, or in reality Superboy #2, or anything like that is only going to tick off his fans.

There are very few people who loved new52 Superman who are going to say "Oh, awesome, he was really a secret construct or someone else in disguise all along". They've already ticked many of us off a ton. Doing that would be basically the equivalent of running us over in a truck and then backing it up over us again.

Just bring him back. He's Superman from one timeline. SuperDad is the Superman from another timeline. Somehow the timelines got merged, but for whatever reason, the two Supermen didn't. Each is real from their respective frame of reference. They are both Superman. In a merged universe, they can be both considered equally both children and not children of the universe as it comes to exist. The end. Bring the new52 Superman back and give him a book in the same universe. Or spin one Superman and his universe back off from what has become the main DC Universe and puts his book or books in the spin-off universes.

Sometimes I think these editors are writers just like screwing with people because they can. It's like the police officer who cites you for going 1 MPH over the speed limit. Technically, you were speeding, so he can write the ticket, but, really, there's got to be part of him who is just going "Hahaha. Screw you." when it's literally just 1 MPH over.

[GSman]

Why can't new52 Superman just be Superman? Aka Clark Kent, biological son of Jor-El, adopted son of Jonathan Kent (the real one, not the kid)?

Making him a former member of the legion, or in reality Superboy #2, or anything like that is only going to tick off his fans.

There are very few people who loved new52 Superman who are going to say "Oh, awesome, he was really a secret construct or someone else in disguise all along". They've already ticked many of us off a ton. Doing that would be basically the equivalent of running us over in a truck and then backing it up over us again.

Just bring him back. He's Superman from one timeline. SuperDad is the Superman from another timeline. Somehow the timelines got merged, but for whatever reason, the two Supermen didn't. Each is real from their respective frame of reference. They are both Superman. In a merged universe, they can be both considered equally both children and not children of the universe as it comes to exist. The end. Bring the new52 Superman back and give him a book in the same universe. Or spin one Superman and his universe back off from what has become the main DC Universe and puts his book or books in the spin-off universes.

Sometimes I think these editors are writers just like screwing with people because they can. It's like the police officer who cites you for going 1 MPH over the speed limit. Technically, you were speeding, so he can write the ticket, but, really, there's got to be part of him who is just going "Hahaha. Screw you." when it's literally just 1 MPH over.

I agree why can't he be Superman? We followed that guy for five years and than we're supposed to accept that he wasn't really Superman why? Why is that in anyway necessary why can't there be two Supermen? I mean there are two Lois Lanes, is New 52 Lois supposed to be fake as well and what about New 52 Booster Gold? I mean making him a construct or Superboy it would just be a kick in the face to the fans of New 52 Superman. I hope at the end of this story they come up with a good satisfying reason to why that there are two Supermen and Lois Lanes not constructs or Dr Manhattan creations but something like maybe they're the same people but split up or maybe Superdad and Lois are the New 52 versions from the future with false memories or maybe New 52 Superman and Lois are the Earth 2 versions.

[manofsteel1979]

While from a logic and for the sake of a "twist" , I could see this as the answer to the two Superman conundrum,but I don't think it's fair to Nuperman's fans to tell them their Superman who they followed and read for 5 years was some sort of stand in or imposter.Both Supermen should be the "Real" native to this timeline Superman somehow, either through timey whimey shenanigans, mystical means etc. No stand in's, constructs, or clones.

[Patrick Gerard]

Interesting stuff. Was there anything in the books that pointed you in that direction?

I was just trying to think of how you arrive at a spare, super-powered Lois Lane without invoking clones or alternate universes... Plus the apparent importane of Legion in Rebirth. I think we have to assume everything in Rebirth #1 is important to how that storyline involving the missing years plays out.

We have Saturn Girl being interviewed by police, Johnny Thunder remembering a career with the JSA that never happened, Ollie and Dinah's lost romance, Damian being 13, and Linda Park being younger than she was before.

My supposition is that Johns may be backing away from any ideas about Damian being artificially conceived, towards some kind of "Batman will kick himself when he realizes he fathered his son 13 years ago after becoming Batman even though he's only been Batman for less than half that time." Ollie/Dinah and Johnny Thunder tie into the plot to weaken the heroes. If there's one Legionnaire here, it hints to me that the story with them may involve taking some kind of emergency damage control measures to deal with the missing 10 years head-on. And if you have major people disappearing from history, what do you do/ Maybe you replace them. Plus, part of Saturn Girl's whole shtick is that she messes with people's memories/thoughts to protect the timeline -- ie. how Superboy could be in the Legion with Supergirl and not know about Supergirl until after he became Superman. So if you're using Saturn Girl, I'd imagine that probably suggests the Legion are involved in managing the fallout from the missing years and that her mind powers may address some of why people remember what they do.

[Patrick Gerard]

While from a logic and for the sake of a "twist" , I could see this as the answer to the two Superman conundrum,but I don't think it's fair to Nuperman's fans to tell them their Superman who they followed and read for 5 years was some sort of stand in or imposter.Both Supermen should be the "Real" native to this timeline Superman somehow, either through timey whimey shenanigans, mystical means etc. No stand in's, constructs, or clones.

I'm really not sure that being fair to Nuperman's fans would serve what DC is trying to accomplish all that well, necessarily. Any approach that seems to go out of its way to serve that group (which is only about as large of a group as Steph Brown fans) seems to conflict with a larger goal. You can do a half-measure maybe but if a half-measure neither works for the larger goals nor pleases them then you might as well shoot for a logical, enjoyable story that doesn't take their feelings into account. Because if pleasing them completely is off the table, well... You have to decide where to cut your losses there.

As it stands, I'd say the current books are weaker and less accessible than they might be had they just handwaved the whole thing in a frontloaded retcon. Assuming Superdad and Jon are the future of the brand (and I've gotten that impression from DC) then every little nod to Nuperman just makes Jon's early appearances harder for trade readers to enjoy in five years.

[manofsteel1979]

I'm really not sure that being fair to Nuperman's fans would serve what DC is trying to accomplish all that well, necessarily. Any approach that seems to go out of its way to serve that group (which is only about as large of a group as Steph Brown fans) seems to conflict with a larger goal. You can do a half-measure maybe but if a half-measure neither works for the larger goals nor pleases them then you might as well shoot for a logical, enjoyable story that doesn't take their feelings into account. Because if pleasing them completely is off the table, well... You have to decide where to cut your losses there.

As it stands, I'd say the current books are weaker and less accessible than they might be had they just handwaved the whole thing in a frontloaded retcon. Assuming Superdad and Jon are the future of the brand (and I've gotten that impression from DC) then every little nod to Nuperman just makes Jon's early appearances harder for trade readers to enjoy in five years.

Honestly what would have worked better if this is the direction they are going for the foreseeable future would have been say,Wally making contact with Nuperman or Superdad, the missing 10 years come back into play and then suddenly one of the two Supermen disappear and it's just one Superman and Lois with a son. But I'm not convinced DC or Warner's know what it wants with Superman,so thus the convoluted set up we have now that doesn't fully commit to either Superman for now.

[Dataweaver]

Frankly, I suspect that the only solution to the current Superman dilemma that stand a chance of pleasing both sets of fans (except for the shottenfreude crowd, who can all go jump in a lake for all I care) would be something along the lines of the Legion's “Batch SW6” resolution: then, like now, you had two versions of several of the Legion, one “modern” (the adult Legion) and one “retro” (the SW6 kids). A question arose as to which were the originals and which were the copies; this question was ultimately answered by the Time Trapper, who revealed that he had bifurcated the timeline, and both were the originals — in their respective timelines.

Of course, that revelation took place during the Legion's Zero Hour tie-in; and shortly thereafter, we got the first Legion reboot.

I could see the current Superman dilemma resolved in a similar way, with Dr. Manhattan taking on the role of the Time Trapper: with Superman, DM didn't merely “steal some time”; he split Superman's timeline, resulting in two versions of Superman coexisting.

Or maybe instead of a time-split, a solution could come in the form of a time-loop: sometime over the next two years, Superwoman and Clark Kent (from the current Action Comics, assuming he's revealed to be a depowered N52 Superman) pair up and she ends up transferring her powers over to him, restoring his status as Superman and reverting her to Superman's girlfriend, Lois Lane. They get married, and Lois becomes pregnant; then, shortly after their son's birth, something happens and they're thrown back in time, arriving in the past the day before the JL forms with swiss cheese memories. Thinking that they're refugees from another world, they decide to settle down in secret and to work from behind the scenes…

In other words, explain the two Supermen by saying that Superdad is Nuperman's future self transplanted back in time.

[Patrick Gerard]

Frankly, I suspect that the only solution to the current Superman dilemma that stand a chance of pleasing both sets of fans (except for the shottenfreude crowd, who can all go jump in a lake for all I care) would be something along the lines of the Legion's “Batch SW6” resolution: then, like now, you had two versions of several of the Legion, one “modern” (the adult Legion) and one “retro” (the SW6 kids). A question arose as to which were the originals and which were the copies; this question was ultimately answered by the Time Trapper, who revealed that he had bifurcated the timeline, and both were the originals — in their respective timelines.

Of course, that revelation took place during the Legion's Zero Hour tie-in; and shortly thereafter, we got the first Legion reboot.

I could see the current Superman dilemma resolved in a similar way, with Dr. Manhattan taking on the role of the Time Trapper: with Superman, DM didn't merely “steal some time”; he split Superman's timeline, resulting in two versions of Superman coexisting.

Or maybe instead of a time-split, a solution could come in the form of a time-loop: sometime over the next two years, Superwoman and Clark Kent (from the current Action Comics, assuming he's revealed to be a depowered N52 Superman) pair up and she ends up transferring her powers over to him, restoring his status as Superman and reverting her to Superman's girlfriend, Lois Lane. They get married, and Lois becomes pregnant; then, shortly after their son's birth, something happens and they're thrown back in time, arriving in the past the day before the JL forms with swiss cheese memories. Thinking that they're refugees from another world, they decide to settle down in secret and to work from behind the scenes…

In other words, explain the two Supermen by saying that Superdad is Nuperman's future self transplanted back in time.

I think we're getting way too deep into "fan community management" territory to assume pleasing everyone is the ideal solution. Sometimes the best approach for a company is to do what you do, regardless of what some folks want.

Maybe the answer is as simple as "New 52 Superman was a fake. If you liked him, Kenan will inherit aspects of his book. We'll keep some aspects of Lex and Lana. But we're not gonna chase after you past a certain point. We'll offer you other books but that's not Superman. If you'll accept no substitutes, well, we aren't chasing you."

I mean, I don't see them chasing after Azz Wonder Woman fans either. It was a well executed book that's off brand and they aren't necessarily going to double down on a mistake just because some people liked the mistake. They may create new characters with some of what you liked but that's the compromise.

[SuperCrab]

I think we're getting way too deep into "fan community management" territory to assume pleasing everyone is the ideal solution. Sometimes the best approach for a company is to do what you do, regardless of what some folks want.

Maybe the answer is as simple as "New 52 Superman was a fake. If you liked him, Kenan will inherit aspects of his book. We'll keep some aspects of Lex and Lana. But we're not gonna chase after you past a certain point. We'll offer you other books but that's not Superman. If you'll accept no substitutes, well, we aren't chasing you."

I mean, I don't see them chasing after Azz Wonder Woman fans either. It was a well executed book that's off brand and they aren't necessarily going to double down on a mistake just because some people liked the mistake. They may create new characters with some of what you liked but that's the compromise.

Not good enough for me.

What I would accept as a compromise, however, is if they brought back the Clark Kent/Superman we know from the new52 books and didn't make him Superman. What I mean is something like this- he comes back, we're told who he is, but for whatever reason, he decides the Superman role is being filled and that his calling lays elsewhere. So, he dons a fake human name and a new superhero name, and operates out of a new city, while writing for a blog. Maybe he only has Truth level powers. He's got his separate book and does his own thing. He might wear the crest (House of El- the same way various characters do) and in a sense is the modern Superman he was supposed to be, but the real title and traditional trappings go to SuperDad. The costuming would perhaps have some green in it and lack the cape. He has all his new52 memories and occasionally they come into play and he may take some of the friends and villains that SuperDad isn't using. It's established that he was Superman in a timeline that no longer fully exists due to a merger of timelines that constitutes the current DC universe but was not a construct and was the legitimate Superman of his universe, but we don't really see much of that issue to issue, because he's doing his own thing now.

They could make up a new city, put him in a real city that no hero is affiliated with (I'm rooting for Baltimore), or even house him in Gotham, and we sort of see what a modern blogging low-powered Superman archetype who used to be Superman does in a darker city. Maybe he at some point feuds with Batman over Batman's tactics. Superman could try to get involved and there could be tension there both ways. Or they just keep it totally separate from the SuperDad titles.

There's precedent for that sort of thing- various versions of Robin have switched superhero names, Nightwing most famously, but others as well. A lot of Green Lanterns have lost the "lead" in a regular book, but stayed around as Green Lanterns, and eventually gotten their own books back.

Saying some 17 Chinese kid who bullies other kids is somehow an adequate substitute for new52 Superman is ridiculous, though. Clark never bullied people. Clark was not that young in his books (Just younger than SuperDad). Arguably, the Chinese Superman is more a replacement for Kon-El, the second Superboy, in tone, even though the Superboy title and costuming is going to SuperJon.

Somehow we need a guy who Clark's memories and personality going forward and having new adventures. I'd prefer he be the one and only Superman in place of SuperDad, but I'd take a two Superman setup, or even a setup where new52 Clark comes back and has to change names and secret identities in a new book. But not something where we don't get him back in some way. I'm flexible, but not that flexible.

Also, he can't SuperJon somehow. Does not work for me.

[dumbduck]

SuperCrab, I'm repeating your post here because it fits, and maybe AC #959 thread may not be the best place to discuss it, we'd be derailing.

They may do it, but it'll make me wonder even more why editors throw away portions of their fan base. Like, what does retroactively invalidating the new52 if you already have the new (old) status quo you want really accomplish for you from a business perspective? Do Post-Crisis Superman fans actually celebrate and buy two copies of every issue instead of one? Because if it doesn't boost sales from them, why further alienate the new52 Superman fans who I assume you'd like to retain or get back to some extent, even if you aren't actively catering to them or fishing for them? Like, it's one thing to not target a certain demographic, but the wisdom of giving a demographic a double fingered salute and then continuing to do it over and over again long after you killed their character is questionable. Poor business sense IMO. Even people who want to reconcile to the new order aren't going to if their era is continually insulted within the storylines for no apparent reason.

This is a perfect summation of my thoughts. Also, the Rebirth situation will remain complicated whether 52 Superman is alive or not. The explanation that they give to fix everything will remain convoluted whether he was a real Clark Kent/Kal-el or not. There's 2 Lois Lanes, and I don't see anyone saying that Super-Lois should die to make things less complicated. The need to erase him from history or mutate him into a construct or whatever is pure cruelty.

[Tayswift]

I think we're getting way too deep into "fan community management" territory to assume pleasing everyone is the ideal solution. Sometimes the best approach for a company is to do what you do, regardless of what some folks want.

Maybe the answer is as simple as "New 52 Superman was a fake. If you liked him, Kenan will inherit aspects of his book. We'll keep some aspects of Lex and Lana. But we're not gonna chase after you past a certain point. We'll offer you other books but that's not Superman. If you'll accept no substitutes, well, we aren't chasing you."

I mean, I don't see them chasing after Azz Wonder Woman fans either. It was a well executed book that's off brand and they aren't necessarily going to double down on a mistake just because some people liked the mistake. They may create new characters with some of what you liked but that's the compromise.

azzarello wonder woman was definately more successful than new 52 superman, even if it had some elements that doesn't belong on ww comic it had good characterization, direction and quality writing.

It just impossible chase after everyone, DC choices are based on iconography and what suits more the character on the classic sense.