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  1. #61
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Euroforce isn't a new group (though most of the members seen in Avengers World are new). The team originally appeared in Europa, a miniseries published by Marvel Italia, back in the mid-1990s.
    Wow, very cool, I had no idea about that, thanks for the info!

  2. #62
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Wow, very cool, I had no idea about that, thanks for the info!

    It was never published in English, but is the roots of the team. Only one character remains from that line-up, however.
    It Came From Darkmoor...

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  3. #63
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    So it's going to take me a while to read through the Alan Moore period and post about that. In the meantime does anyone want to discuss Dave Thorpe's brief run? After all it did re-introduce Brian, give him his second and most classic costume (helmeted version) and introduce a few concepts such as the Crazy Gang, Saturnine (respelled Saturnyne under Alan) and Mad Jim Jaspers, that i for one always attributed to Alan Moore - well until i finally read these stories last year.

    So while Alan Moore may have served up the feast, Dave Thorpe is at least the Chef who started mixing the ingredients!

  4. #64
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    It is brief, granted. But it does have it's note of controversy, with the reasons for Dave Thorpe's departure. Thorpe is also thought to be the man responsible for the designation of 'Earth 616'.
    It Came From Darkmoor...

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  5. #65
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    It is brief, granted. But it does have it's note of controversy, with the reasons for Dave Thorpe's departure. Thorpe is also thought to be the man responsible for the designation of 'Earth 616'.
    Really - i didn't get any number references on my read. While he undoubtedly says Brian has been sent to an alternate earth and it was one of a series - with the exception of a mention of Captain UK (referenced as male) there was no indication that the concept of numbered earths and parallel Captain Britain's were conceived of prior to Alan Moore. In fact its into the Daredevils period when 616 gets the first mention that I could see.

  6. #66
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomReporter View Post
    Really - i didn't get any number references on my read. While he undoubtedly says Brian has been sent to an alternate earth and it was one of a series - with the exception of a mention of Captain UK (referenced as male) there was no indication that the concept of numbered earths and parallel Captain Britain's were conceived of prior to Alan Moore. In fact its into the Daredevils period when 616 gets the first mention that I could see.
    Which is actually why I say 'thought'. There was a Tom Brevoort blog article a few years back on Marvel.com. It's been lost since the revamp, but is still referenced on Thorpe's Wikipedia page ( http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thorpe).

    In that article Alan Davis was quoted as saying "Dave Thorpe, who wasn't a fan of the modern superhero genre, was responsible for most of the more madcap or satirical elements — such as recording his opinion of the Marvel Universe with the designation 616".

    616 supposedly being one variant of the Number of the Beast.

    Which certainly raises a question. Is this just how Davis remembered it?
    It Came From Darkmoor...

    A Blog dedicated to the British corner of the Marvel Universe.


    Twitter: @theswordisdrawn

  7. #67
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Which is actually why I say 'thought'. There was a Tom Brevoort blog article a few years back on Marvel.com. It's been lost since the revamp, but is still referenced on Thorpe's Wikipedia page ( http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thorpe).

    In that article Alan Davis was quoted as saying "Dave Thorpe, who wasn't a fan of the modern superhero genre, was responsible for most of the more madcap or satirical elements — such as recording his opinion of the Marvel Universe with the designation 616".

    616 supposedly being one variant of the Number of the Beast.

    Which certainly raises a question. Is this just how Davis remembered it?
    It could be or maybe Thorpe left notes for Alan Moore. I do know that even if he had thought up most of the storyline and left it to Moore to play out (which i doubt) the quality immediately jumped. I don't know if anyone that's not already a big UK/CB fan is reading this thread, but if they are, here's a chance to demonstrate just how GREAT Captain Britain became. The Moore/Davis run in my mind equates to Carmine Infantino on Flash, Kirby seminal runs of the early to mid 60's ... its just iconic and anyone who reads it must surely get a better understanding and love for Brian Braddock.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomReporter View Post
    So it's going to take me a while to read through the Alan Moore period and post about that. In the meantime does anyone want to discuss Dave Thorpe's brief run? After all it did re-introduce Brian, give him his second and most classic costume (helmeted version) and introduce a few concepts such as the Crazy Gang, Saturnine (respelled Saturnyne under Alan) and Mad Jim Jaspers, that i for one always attributed to Alan Moore - well until i finally read these stories last year.

    So while Alan Moore may have served up the feast, Dave Thorpe is at least the Chef who started mixing the ingredients!
    These days it gets overlooked in favour of Moore's work, but at the time it was popular and exciting, though in part due to Alan Davis' art. What people who did not experience it the time don't get is that it seemed to herald a new dawn of British comic-book talent, and Marvel UK looked like it was really going places, with a British sensibility but in an American genre. I must of been 10 or 11 at the time, and the CB strip felt very different to any other Marvel strip I'd ever read, especially with Davis not rehashing poses from Kirby, Buscema, or Neal Adams, or being scared of drawing people who were not idealised to perfection. The Spider-Man weekly comic at the time started to include glossy centre-spread posters of Captain Britain and Jackdaw painted by artists like Mick Austin rather than Davis (he couldn't be everywhere!), so CB (and the late Jackdaw) was literally the poster-boy for Marvel UK. I was crazy for the strip, it was so weird, yet recognisably British, it quickly became my favourite strip in the comic, and Thorpe did his best to pack a lot in to the 5 or 6 pages he had every month.

    I have to say I miss the force-field CB had at that period - it made him more than just a muscle-man. And, hey - this is the strip that devolved its hero into a monkey! He got better, of course.

    And that early Davis art...



    It was a wild ride, though it did get derailed slightly by that story involving warring neighbourhoods. Moore brought a new level of sophistication and maturity to the stories, but the off-the-wall weirdness and CB being the straight-man thrown in at the deep-end definitely had their genesis in Thorpe's work.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomReporter View Post
    Really - i didn't get any number references on my read. While he undoubtedly says Brian has been sent to an alternate earth and it was one of a series - with the exception of a mention of Captain UK (referenced as male) there was no indication that the concept of numbered earths and parallel Captain Britain's were conceived of prior to Alan Moore. In fact its into the Daredevils period when 616 gets the first mention that I could see.
    Yeah, I have to admit I doubt that is correct. Firstly, Alan Moore has said he picked the number because it was random and large, which contradicts it being Dave Thorpe who picked the number. So it would seem that one of the Alans is misremembering. Going purely by what was in the comics, there's no evidence of numbering realities being used in Thorpe's run - he does use a reality designation once, when Jackdaw is being scanned, and that designation is "Earth Green Alpha One". Thorpe's last issue was published May 1982, and the first time Earth-616 is named is July 1983. So on that evidence alone, I'd have to say it was Moore's creation. Thorpe created lots of stuff that later became iconic in CB's history, but not, I believe, that bit.

  10. #70
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    All kudos for Thorpe - i see him as the player who lays the pass that gives the star striker the opportunity to win the match - i don't know why i'm using a football analogy as i barely watch it - this world cup, not at all, but it seems to fit. Thorpe followed by anyone else might have fallen into obscure foot note status but now he'll always be the guy who set up Alan Moore's historic run which is something significant.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    THE THIRD ERA OF CAPTAIN BRITAIN: ALAN MOORE.

    Cap's best solo showing can be divided into three parts and the second part kicked off when Alan Moore took over and used a few of Dave Thorpe's basic concepts as well as mined older CB history to produce a classic iconic run that deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Infantino Flash and sixties Kirby.

    Having used the last page of Marvel Superheroes 386 to establish that Saturnyne and Cap's celebration of THE PUSH was a bit premature - due to the fact that MAD JIM JASPERS was starting to warp reality - we begin Moore's run in earnest and in full lush colour.

    MSH 387, July 1982 - At Status Crew HQ, the authorities become aware of the reality warp and incorrectly deduce that Saturnyne and Captain Britain, agents of a parallel Earth, are initiating an invasion. Their response:

    'Unleash The Fury.'

    The Fury is Alan Moore's first great creation/original addition to the Captain Britain mythos. It's described as a cybiote, a mesh of machinery and organics designed to withstand any amount of damage and relentlessly track and kill its targets - superhumans. If you've never encountered The Fury before, simply imagine Nimrod and the Sentinels ... are you imagining? Now picture The Fury tearing through THEM with ease.

    The Fury is sicced onto Cap and Saturnyne decides to cut her losses and gets her Avant Guard to warp her the hell outta that dimension, leaving a stunned Cap to face it on his own. Clearing away debris from the former writer, Moore has his new creation literally blast Jackdaw in half. An enraged Captain Britain attacks but is swatted away like an insignificant fly, his arm broken. Luckily Mad Jim arrives in his flying teapot to rescue Brian and also reveals HE created The Fury.

    MSH 388, Aug 1982 - Inside the teapot, Cap demands answers and in his own mad way, Jaspers provides them, telling Cap that in the past before he got more insane or stopped hiding his insanity, he was a member of Parliament/big deal in the British government. As such he stirred up public opinion against superheroes, leading to a ban and manipulating the masses (possibly with his powers) so they cheered him on when he began the purges - The Fury began systematically wiping out all the heroes over a 2 year period - this was a decade ago. All except Mad Jim himself as The Fury was programmed not to harm his creator.

    As the reality of it hits Brian and Jim uses his powers to create images of Cap's dead friends, Brian freaks out and runs out of the teapot, crashing to the ground in a heroes graveyard. All the graves are filled except one marked CAPTAIN U.K. Brian collapses to his knees crying out to demand why Merlin has forsaken him. Then the Fury appears behind him and blasts our hero to ashes.

    A 'universe away' a woman with short hair and glasses shivers, feeling someone has 'walked over her grave.' The last shot is of Captain U.K's grave with smoking ash billowing from before the headstone.

    In the next issue Moore writes a history and analysis of Captain Britain but there's no story. We now have to wait a few months for extended (8 pagers instead of 5-6) tales in the newly launched THE DAREDEVILS.

    The Daredevils 1, January 1983 - The few months break has really given the team of the two Alans a chance to make this a debut issue to remember. Alan Davis' art seems more polished with vibrant colours - flashback scenes are amber yellow to contrast with the colourful present day and Merlyn and Roma have been visually redesigned into what we think of as their present day configurations. In Merlyn's case he is taller, thinner and beardless; just in case the reader is tempted to think that this has been a soft reboot of his look, part of the story shows the mage explicitly revealing 4 alternate looks - one is traditional Merlin, one black haired possibly Maha Yogi Merlin, one a pink alien and finally skull capped Merlin which i believe was his Doctor Who look.

    Alan Moore takes the opportunity of 8 pages to set up a new status quo and revisit the Captain's history so we're familiar with some old faces when he brings them back.

    We are now in otherworld where Merlyn has collected the scraps of Captain Britain's remains and commences to rebuild him from the molecular level upward beginning with his skeleton. In order to restore Brian's memories, Merlyn stirs the 'waters of the human mind' - the amber flashbacks - which allows Moore to add and define Brian Braddock as a character.

    It turns out the Braddock family were too poor to associate with the aristocracy they belonged to but too above the working classes so didn't really fit in (I guess they had their mansion and just enough cash to maintain it and have a comfortable standard of living so were in effect like a middle class family in a very large house). Brian grew up bookish and lonely (well apart from his close relationship with his twin sister presumably), throwing himself into the study of physics. As he got older he had a few shallow relationships and it was while out with a girl that his parents died in the accident so he added guilt to his loneliness, becoming even more withdrawn and throwing himself into his studies and the summer internship to dull his pain.

    Merlyn hints that 'One would almost think it had all been planned.' Given what we later find out about Sir James Braddock's origins, this indicates strongly that Merlyn was shaping Brian to become his champion - Merlyn also obliquely hints that the presence of THE REAVER attacking Darkmoor might not be a coincidence either.

    When a sympathetic Roma asks what Brian's life might have been like if they hadn't interfered and might he have been happy, Merlyn says he's not concerned with one man's happiness. 'He was needed. One human's happiness matters little compared to the fate of the world.'

    At this point i'd like to comment to all the Captain Britain naysayers who think he's stiff, boring or lacking personality - consider the manipulations he endured. If you're reading this, you might want to read the actual stories and see that Brian went through a lot and any issues with his character are not because he was written without personality but BECAUSE of his past as written in-story - reading the actual storylines might give new perspective and sympathy for Brian Braddock. In fact he underwent the classic HERO'S JOURNEY and on the whole emerged better and happier, having overcome - but as with Hank Pym and the infamous slap, some uninformed or lazy writers ignore character growth and place their own prejudices onto a very well written and realised character - ah but there's more ...

    As a scientist Brian was now faced with the evidence of magic which he tried to rationalise by defining himself as a superhero and as Merlyn states 'trying to deny the power that had touched him. This led to a breakdown when he bailed out of the plane over the mid atlantic. Suffering amnesia and a reversal, he now battled supernatural and mythological foes, supressing his rational mind before 'Merlin' reappears, taking him to Otherworld where he reconciled both halves of his warring soul and became at peace.

    Merlyn classifies this as not the end of his duties but the end of his apprenticeship and his being sent to the alt earth was the final test for the great battle that is to come.

    Merlyn as much as states that everything was part of his manipulations. A sympathetic Roma states that it was cruel and she demonstrates sorrow for Brian. At this point he is rebuilt with even his costume slowly forming but now the power lies within him and the costume just amplifies it. Cap's perceptions have been expanded and his force field limited. His soul is retrieved and a reborn Captain Britain is returned to Darkmoor on his own earth.

    Weeping with joy, Cap thanks God and attributes his 'salvation' to Merlin's intervention. Roma observes with her father and sheds a tear for Brian whispering 'Poor thing. Poor doomed thing.'

    The Alan Moore years continues next post.
    Last edited by PhantomReporter; 07-05-2014 at 04:04 PM.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    Hey Phantom, I'm enjoying reading your writeups.

    Just one small point if I may. The Captain Britain strip in The Daredevils was in black & white as were the Daredevil and Spider-Man reprints. I believe it was specially coloured for the Omnibus.

  13. #73
    Super Soldier THE DANGER965's Avatar
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    Captain Britain is a pretty sweet character, and I hope that his character will someday make it into the MCU. We need a British super hero to finally make it onto the big screen.

    In terms of Marvel UK, are we only discussing UK marvel characters or comics as well? The Marvel collectors editions are great quality, shame that their just behind on the stories.
    I look around at us and you know what I see? Losers... I mean like, folks who have lost stuff. And we have, man, we have, all of us. Homes, and our families, normal lives. And you think life takes more than it gives, but not today. Today it's giving us something. It is giving us a chance.

  14. #74
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    Raffi - i didn't know it was in black n white originally. I'm reading the 5 CB trades. I assume because the Thorpe issues were in black n white that the omnibus started with Moore and thats the section of black n white that was recoloured.

    Thedanger - I'm mostly concentrating on original stories and M:UK heroes with Captain Britain as a big part, but please feel free to talk about the comics/collected editions. I'd only ask that you stick to the 1976-83 period i've covered so far as it could be confusing to start talking about say Black Axe or stuff that happened in 1997. Don't worry, i will eventually reach that point. I have 1983-86 to cover in the near future which is the rest of Alan Moore then Jamie Delano and i would also like someone more in the know than i am like LOKI to chime in with any details on original British themed M:UK heroes.

    I know of Thunderclap circa 1984 but were there any more original good guys - i'm not covering Night Raven because he was a period character and his tales took place in NYC and he was Canadian to boot. I'm also not too concerned about original Hulk or Spidey stories unless they featured UK characters and locations or out of main continuity strips like Zoids, Transformers and others that came a bit later with the exception of Death's Head.

    As an aside i loved The Transformers - they were in fact my first Marvels before i got into Avengers etc and i just purchased the first volume of collected Transformers UK which i intend to savour as i only have two issues before number 69. I have broken out my run from 69 to roughly 130 as well as my 20 or so Transformers US to re-read and enjoy. But i digress! As great as the Transformers are, they would need a huge thread of their own to talk about and i'm just concerned with Marvel UK/616 continuity.

    I'll also get round to covering the origins of Union Jack, Spitfire, Destroyer and others at some point.

    Oh and if anybody is interested in it, i have a free promo on my novel on Amazon kindle for download until the 8th. I feel a bit confident that i'm not transgressing any major rules by mentioning it on this out of the way thread and a few people did express interest. It's my most mainstream/literary novel but at some point i do intend to upload my usual more wild sci-fi, fantasy and even comic bookesque stuff like my UNSEEN MAN which is set in a superhero universe - i've held off because i wasn't thrilled at the format conversion on Forever Torn despite a dozen initial edits. All of which hasn't distracted the majority of readers who rated it quite highly though i get the odd comment from grammar nazis. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forever-Torn...dp/B00CAPCI94/ http://www.amazon.com/Forever-Torn-J...=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

    Cheers.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member PhantomReporter's Avatar
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    Was Thunderclap the only British hero created in the Spidey or Hulk UK strips?

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