Frank Cho Leaves "Wonder Woman"; Blames Greg Rucka's 'Political Agenda'

[SXVA]

What do you think editors do on work-for-hire art? Just say "yes" and "thank you" and take whatever the artist turns in?

Any artist is free to express themselves on their own time and dime. Total creative freedom. If you take a job or commission, then you do what you were contracted to do according to the employer/contract, not merely your own "artistic expression." That includes any changes the employer may want (unless a contract states otherwise).



And how is boycotting not trying to force your own agenda on Rucka and DC? No, you aren't required to support the book, and I would have no problem with dropping a book you simply don't enjoy. But, you're boycotting based on what? Editing? Every book gets edited, so are you dropping all of them? Or only those where a creator has an emotional outburst online?

As i've explained and made very clear it's not "editing" that's just the scapegoat spin face put on it just like other various similar incidents where it was scheduling conflicts or other such excuses knowing darn well what it's really about.

I said why i'm choosing not to support the book with my own words and it wasn't editing in those words. There's no need for anyone to try and tell me what it is or question what i'm choosing to do. I'm very well aware of what's going on in these situations as i've seen it happen countless times over and over across all the various mediums of art that i'm a fan of. These developers and publishers and producers, etc don't want to deal with very loud outspoken groups of backlash and so they cater to their agenda and appease to them even if it means sacrificing individual choice. To have a PR nightmare involving these PC/SJW groups is an absolute nightmare for them in which they would rather avoid if they can. I'm not blaming them necessarily as i understand why they wouldn't want to deal with all of that mess.

That's why i say it's "forced agenda" and censorship, these very loud groups with their agendas have no desire for individual choice and expression all they want is to shape the world into an image according to their agenda. For example, even if something is a variant cover to where there's a personal choice that each person can make in which they prefer... they aren't happy with that they want both things to be according to their agenda removing any individual choice. That's a forced agenda of censorship in the context of art. These misguided groups of people have somehow made it their mission to censor art instead of actually putting focus on something in the world that would actually matter and make a difference.

In the end it doesn't matter to me, it's kind of like the Firefly theme song... "take my love, take my land, take me where i cannot stand... i don't care/i'm still free... you can't take the sky from me". Censor all art/force everything into the image according to whatever agenda. It will never take away my imagination and my thoughts which are free.

[Coal Tiger]

As i've explained and made very clear it's not "editing" that's just the scapegoat spin face put on it just like other various similar incidents where it was scheduling conflicts or other such excuses knowing darn well what it's really about.

I said why i'm choosing not to support the book with my own words and it wasn't editing in those words. There's no need for anyone to try and tell me what it is or question what i'm choosing to do. I'm very well aware of what's going on in these situations as i've seen it happen countless times over and over across all the various mediums of art that i'm a fan of. These developers and publishers and producers, etc don't want to deal with very loud outspoken groups of backlash and so they cater to their agenda and appease to them even if it means sacrificing individual choice. To have a PR nightmare involving these PC/SJW groups is an absolute nightmare for them in which they would rather avoid if they can. I'm not blaming them necessarily as i understand why they wouldn't want to deal with all of that mess.

That's why i say it's "forced agenda" and censorship, these very loud groups with their agendas have no desire for individual choice and expression all they want is to shape the world into an image according to their agenda. For example, even if something is a variant cover to where there's a personal choice that each person can make in which they prefer... they aren't happy with that they want both things to be according to their agenda removing any individual choice. That's a forced agenda of censorship in the context of art. These misguided groups of people have somehow made it their mission to censor art instead of actually putting focus on something in the world that would actually matter and make a difference.

In the end it doesn't matter to me, it's kind of like the Firefly theme song... "take my love, take my land, take me where i cannot stand... i don't care/i'm still free... you can't take the sky from me". Censor all art/force everything into the image according to whatever agenda. It will never take away my imagination and my thoughts which are free.

Wow dude. You take panty shots of corporately owned characters pretty seriously.

[Awonder]

As i've explained and made very clear it's not "editing" that's just the scapegoat spin face put on it just like other various similar incidents where it was scheduling conflicts or other such excuses knowing darn well what it's really about.

I said why i'm choosing not to support the book with my own words and it wasn't editing in those words. There's no need for anyone to try and tell me what it is or question what i'm choosing to do. I'm very well aware of what's going on in these situations as i've seen it happen countless times over and over across all the various mediums of art that i'm a fan of. These developers and publishers and producers, etc don't want to deal with very loud outspoken groups of backlash and so they cater to their agenda and appease to them even if it means sacrificing individual choice. To have a PR nightmare involving these PC/SJW groups is an absolute nightmare for them in which they would rather avoid if they can. I'm not blaming them necessarily as i understand why they wouldn't want to deal with all of that mess.

That's why i say it's "forced agenda" and censorship, these very loud groups with their agendas have no desire for individual choice and expression all they want is to shape the world into an image according to their agenda. For example, even if something is a variant cover to where there's a personal choice that each person can make in which they prefer... they aren't happy with that they want both things to be according to their agenda removing any individual choice. That's a forced agenda of censorship in the context of art. These misguided groups of people have somehow made it their mission to censor art instead of actually putting focus on something in the world that would actually matter and make a difference.

In the end it doesn't matter to me, it's kind of like the Firefly theme song... "take my love, take my land, take me where i cannot stand... i don't care/i'm still free... you can't take the sky from me". Censor all art/force everything into the image according to whatever agenda. It will never take away my imagination and my thoughts which are free.

And we're back to "censoring." That isn't actually censoring (hint: Cho isn't banned from speaking, or publishing, or even working at DC). But, it's not editing that goes on every company comic ever, because you say so? And you know this because you weren't actually there, didn't witness any of the events, and don't really know what anyone involved actually said during any of this either, right?

You say you're all for "individual choice?" Does that apply to the individual choice of DC to not let cover artists do whatever they want to do on DC published comics? DC, as individuals and a company, does have a choice in this, too, right?

But, it's just other people's outrage - not your own outrage led boycott over censoring that isn't censoring - that is misguided and should be better spent somewhere else? You boycott WW (because you just take Cho's word for it), and I boycott Trinity (because Cho is moving in), and the world is better how?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Wow dude. You take panty shots of corporately owned characters pretty seriously.

You don't know the half of it.

Continuing that discussion isn't going to lead anywhere, except for maybe this thread getting locked as well.

[JasonTodd428]

If that is what he wants, he should have more than a verbal agreement.


It's not like we are not talking about an industry where companies pull covers all of the time.

Exactly and this is why contracts exist. The bare bones of this matter beyond the mistake that was made is that Cho merely had a VERBAL agreement to the effect that he would have creative freedom with his covers while Rucka had a WRITTEN one that stated that he had complete creative control over presumably ALL aspects of WW during the tenure of his run. The situation would be much different if Cho had gotten those assurances he said he had in writing as a part of his contract. That would have added more legitimacy to that particular claim because it would be validating it. Instead of that though we only have his words to go on.

Now I don't personally know if what Cho said regarding those assurances is true or not and really none of us do but I would have thought he would have, as a professional artist, take the steps necessary to insure he got what he was promised. He's not a wet behind the ears artist for whom this was his first gig and I presume he knows how things work in the Big 2. He should know that a verbal promise doesn't carry the same weight in a business situation as a written one. Seems to me that a lot of mistakes were made here by quite a few people including Cho himself.

[Kao]

Meh. He should just get back to totally awesome Hulk.

[Ghostwise]

Wow dude. You take panty shots of corporately owned characters pretty seriously.

First they came for the panties, and I did not say anything because I wear a kilt.

[Awonder]

Exactly and this is why contracts exist. The bare bones of this matter beyond the mistake that was made is that Cho merely had a VERBAL agreement to the effect that he would have creative freedom with his covers while Rucka had a WRITTEN one that stated that he had complete creative control over presumably ALL aspects of WW during the tenure of his run. The situation would be much different if Cho had gotten those assurances he said he had in writing as a part of his contract. That would have added more legitimacy to that particular claim because it would be validating it. Instead of that though we only have his words to go on.

Now I don't personally know if what Cho said regarding those assurances is true or not and really none of us do but I would have thought he would have, as a professional artist, take the steps necessary to insure he got what he was promised. He's not a wet behind the ears artist for whom this was his first gig and I presume he knows how things work in the Big 2. He should know that a verbal promise doesn't carry the same weight in a business situation as a written one. Seems to me that a lot of mistakes were made here by quite a few people including Cho himself.

From Cho's account, DC really could have handled things better. If they did give Rucka a contract like that, then everyone involved with WW, including the guys and gals on the variant cover side of things, should have been made aware of this from the start.

Had they known, then maybe they don't make Cho a promise they can't keep, and/or Cho may not get as frustrated by not knowing why he's getting notes about his art from the author, etc.

This misunderstanding of expectations is really no fault of Cho or Rucka. DC dropped the ball.

[SXVA]

Wow dude. You take panty shots of corporately owned characters pretty seriously.

No, i take individual choice... freedom of artistic expression serious and art being free of censorship and caging and forced agenda. I don't care what the content is. I would support that regardless. It could be in relation to anything from a joke to sexuality.

Those first few Wonder Woman variant covers by Cho were awesome that i purchased and i was very satisfied with them, it was a similar portrayal as Tony Daniel but a step above where Wonder Woman actually looked naturally strong without being try hard, she just looked fierce and powerful without even having to try, which i liked and there wasn't any panty shots that i saw in those.

If one of the variant covers was distasteful in my eyes, then i'd simply go with the main cover that time around. That's what choice is. What i wouldn't do is then try and forcibly get that cover censored, cause an outrage over it, try and get people fired, unless it was removed or changed.

Next cover, i would again choose which one i preferred. Either the Cho cover or the Nicola Scott cover or whomever was doing the main cover that time around.

No one has to buy Cho's variant cover, it's not even the main cover and so it's not even default. It's the alternative artistic expression option and people would have a choice in what they prefer. And that's what i support. Choice... not this agenda of everything being forced into one small little box according to a misguided group of people who think they are on some kind of crusade of righteousness when they are literally doing nothing. They saved an imaginary character from the tragedy of a handful of people possibly seeing a bit of her panty. Oh the horror of it all. Crisis averted that her skirt might be lowered. The absurdity of it laughable.

If there was no alternative option for the people who prefer Wonder Woman or another character to be more covered up. I have no problem with that in them wanting a choice in a similar way. Like i said, i support individual choices. If i had it my way there would be like 6 covers all with a different theme and the person can choose among them what they like. I actually prefer cartoony style which is usually family friendly and so that's normally the cover i choose. I got numerous Skottie Young baby covers for example although i'm now kind of over that fad it's a bit worn out.

It's just about being able to have a choice is all, and about being true to art and expression.

I see these PC/SJW groups as enemies to this and so i don't support anything that's pro them. I understand that people don't want to deal with the public relations nightmare and backlash in standing up to their forced agenda upon everything and it's much easier simply to avoid that. Which is why i have a great deal of respect for someone like Frank Cho who stands up to that because it's not an easy thing. I didn't particular like his little joke thing with Spider-Gwen and Wonder Woman but i liked that he didn't backdown when those groups tried to harass him for it. That's what i support.

This whole idea that some people just want to see scantily clad ladies and are outraged that it's being taken away is ridiculous. There's an infinite amount of sexual stuff on the internet anyone could look at if they wanted to. It's not about that specifically, it's just that tends to be the main hot topic at the moment in these groups being outraged over certain characters being portrayed "sexy" with too much skin showing. Many people thought the same thing over the X-Men billboard in trying to get it removed because it had a male character grabbing a female character, it's not about taking a side of wanting to see a male character choke a female character it's about taking the side of artistic expression and anti-censoring. That goes for anything from music, to movies, to books, to tv series, paintings, etc.

Art is one of the most beautiful expressions of an otherwise disappointing humanity. To try and tear it down and censor is it one of the more ugly things humanity can do.

Things always start somewhere, it might not seem like a big deal to be passionate about that this one little thing is censored or that thing over there is removed but there's always that first step toward something. The first step on the path doesn't seem like much when looking at it being so far away from the end but when getting closer toward that end it had to start somewhere with those initial steps.

And that's from the heart and soul, and that's all i can really say on that. Either it's heard what i'm saying or it isn't. Like i said before, i don't really care because i'll always have my free thoughts and imaginations. I can write in journals or watch older movies and tv series before this social media madness emerged if i wanted to. When it comes up i'll simply express myself on it if i feel like it. I like having choices, i like having individual expression and a lot of different perspectives through art existing. Maybe we'll finally get passed this whole thing going on at the moment and find some sort of middle ground in the future, or.. perhaps they simply tear everything down to where it stays down until years and years in the future when it rises again. Who knows. One thing is for sure, i know where i stand.

[numberthirty]

not this agenda of everything being forced into one small little box according to a misguided group of people who think they are on some kind of crusade of righteousness when they are literally doing nothing. They saved an imaginary character from the tragedy of a handful of people possibly seeing a bit of her panty. Oh the horror of it all. Crisis averted that her skirt might be lowered. The absurdity of it laughable.

Who, exactly, is this "misguided group" you keep bringing up?

Cho said who he thinks is responsible. Unless there is now a group going by the name of "Greg Rucka", Cho seems to think it was one person.

[numberthirty]

From Cho's account, DC really could have handled things better. If they did give Rucka a contract like that, then everyone involved with WW, including the guys and gals on the variant cover side of things, should have been made aware of this from the start.

Had they known, then maybe they don't make Cho a promise they can't keep, and/or Cho may not get as frustrated by not knowing why he's getting notes about his art from the author, etc.

This misunderstanding of expectations is really no fault of Cho or Rucka. DC dropped the ball.

If Cho being able to draw exactly what he wanted was actually important to him, he could very easily have said "I'd like that in writing."

It's pretty clear that he never did so.

[Coal Tiger]

No, i take individual choice... freedom of artistic expression serious and art being free of censorship and caging and forced agenda. I don't care what the content is. I would support that regardless. It could be in relation to anything from a joke to sexuality.

Those first few Wonder Woman variant covers by Cho were awesome that i purchased and i was very satisfied with them, it was a similar portrayal as Tony Daniel but a step above where Wonder Woman actually looked naturally strong without being try hard, she just looked fierce and powerful without even having to try, which i liked and there wasn't any panty shots that i saw in those.

If one of the variant covers was distasteful in my eyes, then i'd simply go with the main cover that time around. That's what choice is. What i wouldn't do is then try and forcibly get that cover censored, cause an outrage over it, try and get people fired, unless it was removed or changed.

Next cover, i would again choose which one i preferred. Either the Cho cover or the Nicola Scott cover or whomever was doing the main cover that time around.

No one has to buy Cho's variant cover, it's not even the main cover and so it's not even default. It's the alternative artistic expression option and people would have a choice in what they prefer. And that's what i support. Choice... not this agenda of everything being forced into one small little box according to a misguided group of people who think they are on some kind of crusade of righteousness when they are literally doing nothing. They saved an imaginary character from the tragedy of a handful of people possibly seeing a bit of her panty. Oh the horror of it all. Crisis averted that her skirt might be lowered. The absurdity of it laughable.

If there was no alternative option for the people who prefer Wonder Woman or another character to be more covered up. I have no problem with that in them wanting a choice in a similar way. Like i said, i support individual choices. If i had it my way there would be like 6 covers all with a different theme and the person can choose among them what they like. I actually prefer cartoony style which is usually family friendly and so that's normally the cover i choose. I got numerous Skottie Young baby covers for example although i'm now kind of over that fad it's a bit worn out.

It's just about being able to have a choice is all, and about being true to art and expression.

I see these PC/SJW groups as enemies to this and so i don't support anything that's pro them. I understand that people don't want to deal with the public relations nightmare and backlash in standing up to their forced agenda upon everything and it's much easier simply to avoid that. Which is why i have a great deal of respect for someone like Frank Cho who stands up to that because it's not an easy thing. I didn't particular like his little joke thing with Spider-Gwen and Wonder Woman but i liked that he didn't backdown when those groups tried to harass him for it. That's what i support.

This whole idea that some people just want to see scantily clad ladies and are outraged that it's being taken away is ridiculous. There's an infinite amount of sexual stuff on the internet anyone could look at if they wanted to. It's not about that specifically, it's just that tends to be the main hot top at the moment in these groups being outraged over certain characters being portrayed "sexy" with too much skin showing. Many people thought the same thing over the X-Men billboard in trying to get it removed because it had a male character grabbing a female character, it's not about taking a side of wanting to see a male character choke a female character it's about taking the side of artistic expression and anti-censoring. That goes for anything from music, to movies, to books, to tv series, paintings, etc.

Art is one of the most beautiful expressions of an otherwise disappointing humanity. To try and tear it down and censor is it one of the more ugly things humanity can do.

And that's from the heart and soul, and that's all i can really say on that. Either it's heard what i'm saying or it isn't. Like i said before, i don't really care because i'll always have my free thoughts and imaginations. I can write in journals or watch older movies and tv series before this social media madness emerged if i wanted to. When it comes up i'll simply express myself on it if i feel like it. I like having choices, i like having individual expression and a lot of different perspectives through art existing. Maybe we'll finally get passed this whole thing going on at the moment and find some sort of middle ground in the future, or.. perhaps they simply tear everything down to where it stays down until years and years in the future when it rises again. Who knows. One thing is for sure, i know where i stand.

You really shouldn't be reading corporate comics if you truly value freedom of artistic expression because it doesn't exist in corporate comics. Everything goes through an editor and an approval process. Stuff gets denied and altered all the time.

[numberthirty]

You really shouldn't be reading corporate comics if you truly value freedom of artistic expression because it doesn't exist in corporate comics. Everything goes through an editor and an approval process. Stuff gets denied and altered all the time.

Seriously.

It's not like the big two are not being reasonably upfront about what they are doing and why they are doing it.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Frank Cho can draw all the pictures of Wonder Woman he wants and share them on the internet with billions of people. Frank Cho's variant cover is there on the internet for billions to see.

...Censorship!

[Coal Tiger]

Frank Cho can draw all the pictures of Wonder Woman he wants and share them on the internet with billions of people. Frank Cho's variant cover is there on the internet for billions to see.

...Censorship!

All Frank Cho art deserves to be published! If we don't print those panty shots and absurd cleavage and sell them with official DC branding the terroris- er, I mean the SJW's win!