Carol Danvers and Civil Wars

[Huntsman Spider]

Relaunched?

Oh for ----- sake.

Yeah, it's a pain. I get you.

i gotta know how does carol become an overnight celebrity? even most marvel citizens should realize a crazy tyrant when they see one when it's so clear as day

It's not so much that she becomes an overnight celebrity as it's the pinnacle of everything Marvel's been trying to accomplish for her since they first promoted her to Captain Marvel. She finally gets the recognition and respect, if not reverence, she's been aiming for, but at the cost of her self-respect as per the events or outcome of Civil War II. And no, if most Marvel citizens could stand behind Norman Osborn or at least tolerate him as the face of superhuman-related national/global security despite being a well-known crazy (mass) murderer with a hate-crush on Spider-Man . . .

[Frontier]

If the general public can see Hawkeye as a hero for murdering Bruce Banner in cold-blood, then I don't see it as much of a stretch that they could view Carol's work with Ulysses as heroic and world-saving (especially with how she's promoted it) despite the moral implications and seedier aspects of it.

Heck, Tony and the SRA had the public's support despite how it was being enforced and how the heroes or anyone with powers were being treated by the government.

People seemed supportive of Osborn's appointment as head of SHIELD as well, despite being a known murderer and criminal.

The general citizens of the Marvel Universe are just...kinda terrible.

[brettc1]

If the general public can see Hawkeye as a hero for murdering Bruce Banner in cold-blood, then I don't see it as much of a stretch that they could view Carol's work with Ulysses as heroic and world-saving (especially with how she's promoted it) despite the moral implications and seedier aspects of it.

Heck, Tony and the SRA had the public's support despite how it was being enforced and how the heroes or anyone with powers were being treated by the government.

People seemed supportive of Osborn's appointment as head of SHIELD as well, despite being a known murderer and criminal.

The general citizens of the Marvel Universe are just...kinda terrible.

Be gentle with them. They have probably worked out they are going to die like flies every couple of years. That is bound to mess with your head.

[Rhongomyniad]

If the general public can see Hawkeye as a hero for murdering Bruce Banner in cold-blood, then I don't see it as much of a stretch that they could view Carol's work with Ulysses as heroic and world-saving (especially with how she's promoted it) despite the moral implications and seedier aspects of it.

Heck, Tony and the SRA had the public's support despite how it was being enforced and how the heroes or anyone with powers were being treated by the government.

People seemed supportive of Osborn's appointment as head of SHIELD as well, despite being a known murderer and criminal.

The general citizens of the Marvel Universe are just...kinda terrible.

Regarding the MU citizens, I feel they just desire to be safe from super-powered conflicts, because I think walking down the street with a +50% of getting right into a random war-zone isnt exactly how you expect to live every damn day, lol.

In the case of the SRA, they wanted super-heroes to be held accountable for their actions. I quite disagree with that motion, but the Stamford incident (caused by Speedball&Co.) is REALLY hard to ignore tbh.
Iron Man was promoting what they wanted to be done, and we should expect they didnt have a clue about that whole Negative Zone prison fiasco tbf.

In this CWII scenario, I think I would agree with how Carol is handling and promoting Ulysses' pre-cogs, as it is really preventing disasters from happening. They feel safe at last. Altough I would really like to know what they think about such thing as the "nazi-like prison" (Ms. Marvel), among others.

The Norman Osborn's issue was plain stupidity, no way to justify it lmao.

[Juggernaut Punch]

The Norman Osborn's issue was plain stupidity, no way to justify it lmao.

I think they did a pretty good job justifying it. Osborn managed to clear up his past a bit by blaming most of the Green Goblin's actions on other people, and by blaming mental illness for what he did own up to. He managed to cover up all his misdeeds as head of the Thunderbolts program so in the eyes of the government, he was doing a good job, and he definitely won the public's love by appearing to be the guy that stopped an alien invasion on live tv. That alone, killing Veranke, was enough for him to buy enough goodwill to get the job as head of SHIELD. Keep in mind that World War Hulk and the Skrull invasion happened on Iron Man's watch, and that he was partly personally responsible for it. His actions as a member of the Illuminati had been outed as well, so people were clearly looking to someone else to replace him.

It's certainly not 100% airtight but I can buy such a scenario happening.

[Hypestyle]

this is still going on? When will this all conclude?

[Havok83]

this is still going on? When will this all conclude?

Civil War II? December

[jackolover]

There are big spoilers below for Civil War II Issue 3.

Don't keep reading of you have not read it and don't want to know what happens!


I was going to post this on Carol's appreciation thread but that didnt seem appropriate.

I've been a fan of Carol's for decades now and bought her regular series that started just before the first Civil War. I'm also getting her new ongoing book though that is not looking doubtful of continuing.

Carol supported Tony Stark against Steve Rogers in the first CW series. We all know how that eventually turned out.

Now in the second event she's been written leading a completely reckless pursuit against Bruce Banner than ends with Bruce dead. You could argue that her attack on Thanos, a guy who can literally wrassle cosmic level beings like Odin [and has], showed an equal lack of forethought.

So two series in and from where I am sitting it looks like Carol has been on the wrong side both times. It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to like her as a character.

How are other folks feeling at this point?

All Carols encounters with Thanos and CWII tells us is Carol intervening in Precog predictions has lethal effects, whereas intervening in the unpredictable, doesn't. Maybe it's more appropriate to discuss pre-emptive intervention being so foreign that the participants have no experience with that. They are too overconfident in the thwarting of the incident, that they mistake it as being easy and controllable and that's why deaths occur more readily, rather than "stupid Carol".

I have to ask the question, is letting the incident occur more acceptable, than the fallout if you intervene? This then leads to a supplementary question, would the events depicted by Ulysses go another way if he never forewarned the super humans? What Ulysses is supplying is virtually a time machine to have the ability to turn up before an event occurs, albeit a very short window in which to travel. Kang has this ability but over a much larger window, and he still fails to do what he wants to achieve. Shouldn't that teach Kang a lesson?

Victor Von Doom once said "Don't use Time Travel unless necessary because it causes complications", or words to that effect. If only people had come to Victor about Ulysses, and I'm surprised Doom hasn't paid the lad a visit. Doom once had Lyla Miller in his house for a while, and perhaps to study his reactions to incidents she said would happen, so Doom has experience, not just of his own experiments, but of knowing when incidents are about to happen and what to do about it.

[brettc1]

All Carols encounters with Thanos and CWII tells us is Carol intervening in Precog predictions has lethal effects, whereas intervening in the unpredictable, doesn't. Maybe it's more appropriate to discuss pre-emptive intervention being so foreign that the participants have no experience with that. They are too overconfident in the thwarting of the incident, that they mistake it as being easy and controllable and that's why deaths occur more readily, rather than "stupid Carol".

I have to ask the question, is letting the incident occur more acceptable, than the fallout if you intervene? This then leads to a supplementary question, would the events depicted by Ulysses go another way if he never forewarned the super humans? What Ulysses is supplying is virtually a time machine to have the ability to turn up before an event occurs, albeit a very short window in which to travel. Kang has this ability but over a much larger window, and he still fails to do what he wants to achieve. Shouldn't that teach Kang a lesson?

Victor Von Doom once said "Don't use Time Travel unless necessary because it causes complications", or words to that effect. If only people had come to Victor about Ulysses, and I'm surprised Doom hasn't paid the lad a visit. Doom once had Lyla Miller in his house for a while, and perhaps to study his reactions to incidents she said would happen, so Doom has experience, not just of his own experiments, but of knowing when incidents are about to happen and what to do about it.

All valid points. And yet the question of the thread is not necessarily about what to do about Ulysses' predictions, but rather how Carol is being painted in her reactions. To my mind this is twice now she had erred on the side of cleverly rationalized facism that can only end badly.

[PaxHouse]

Things gets even more chaotic for Carol; not only for CIVIL WAR II #6 & ULTIMATES #12, but also for GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY #13.....And since both CW II #6 & ULTIMATES #12 are already being covered; the focus will be on GotG instead.....

GOTG #13.....spoilers:

Carol ends up fighting Gamora who is searching for Thanos and because of the situation of both Carol & Peter Quill keeping the News of Thanos from the Team; not only does Gamora warns Carol that their friendship (as well as her with the Starlord) is over, but the revelation caused both Rocket & Rocket to leave Peter as well

end of spoilers.

And that's not counting the surprise twist about certain beings has also learned about Thanos being on Earth.

[brettc1]

So now its all said and done, what do folks think.

Can't say I am too impressed with Bendis' version of Carol, willing to blow up Tony Stark and basically kill him.

Yes, I know Tony's not dead, but that's not because of anything Carol did. Had it not been for the experiments he was doing on himself Beast pretty much says Carol would have killed him.

Killing Iron Man to save Captain America, who doesn't want her help.

And then she gets rewarded for handling the thing with "uncommon grace"?

Ugh.

[lordozone]

If the general public can see Hawkeye as a hero for murdering Bruce Banner in cold-blood, then I don't see it as much of a stretch that they could view Carol's work with Ulysses as heroic and world-saving (especially with how she's promoted it) despite the moral implications and seedier aspects of it.

Heck, Tony and the SRA had the public's support despite how it was being enforced and how the heroes or anyone with powers were being treated by the government.

People seemed supportive of Osborn's appointment as head of SHIELD as well, despite being a known murderer and criminal.

The general citizens of the Marvel Universe are just...kinda terrible.

Seriously, if I was a citizen of the Marvel Universe, and everyday who must survive not only conflict between super-villains but also between so-called super-heroes, I would have voted a thousand times for the Shra or the mutant act registration and I would have been with Captain Marvel if it avoid more murders and destruction. Super heroes can get away with almost anything in the Marvel Universe.

The Norman Osborn's issue was plain stupidity, no way to justify it lmao.

Real America voted for Trump. If people live your life in constant fear of death and destruction, a lot of them would appoint a figure of authoritarism. If people have to decide between freedom and their life, they will not think twice.

[brettc1]

Seriously, if I was a citizen of the Marvel Universe, and everyday who must survive not only conflict between super-villains but also between so-called super-heroes, I would have voted a thousand times for the Shra or the mutant act registration and I would have been with Captain Marvel if it avoid more murders and destruction. Super heroes can get away with almost anything in the Marvel Universe.

Real America voted for Trump. If people live your life in constant fear of death and destruction, a lot of them would appoint a figure of authoritarism. If people have to decide between freedom and their life, they will not think twice.

Though heroes probably should.

Looking at Civil War II, Carol lost control. If it wasn't evident in her handling of the woman who she falsely incarcerated, it was plain as day to me in #8. What the hell did she think was going to happen when she blew up the armor with Stark inside? That was just horrifying.