Carol Danvers and Civil Wars

[brettc1]

There are big spoilers below for Civil War II Issue 3.

Don't keep reading of you have not read it and don't want to know what happens!


I was going to post this on Carol's appreciation thread but that didnt seem appropriate.

I've been a fan of Carol's for decades now and bought her regular series that started just before the first Civil War. I'm also getting her new ongoing book though that is not looking doubtful of continuing.

Carol supported Tony Stark against Steve Rogers in the first CW series. We all know how that eventually turned out.

Now in the second event she's been written leading a completely reckless pursuit against Bruce Banner than ends with Bruce dead. You could argue that her attack on Thanos, a guy who can literally wrassle cosmic level beings like Odin [and has], showed an equal lack of forethought.

So two series in and from where I am sitting it looks like Carol has been on the wrong side both times. It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to like her as a character.

How are other folks feeling at this point?

[Tiamatty]

I don't think it was reckless at all, going to talk to Bruce. We know that Ulysses' visions have at least some degree of accuracy. So when they get a vision of the Hulk killing them, it's totally reasonable to go check on him. Bringing along an army of superheroes was probably a mistake, but arguably a small one.

I also don't think it was reckless to attack Thanos. A case could be made that more heroes should have been brought along, but you know what? They weren't actually necessary, and depending on the heroes, they could easily have been a liability, by getting in each others' ways. As it was, one mistake was made, and that was from Medusa not disengaging from Thanos quickly enough. That was literally the only error made. Even so, the plan still worked, and Thanos was defeated. So, no, that fight wasn't a mistake.

At this point, Carol has done nothing wrong in the main book. Her decisions have been completely reasonable, and responsible. She's doing her job, and she's doing it well within the bounds of propriety.

[lilyinblue]

I'm a little behind on the current Civil War...

But I think one thing everybody forgets about Carol in CW1 is that her involvement did not end with her unquestionable support of Tony. As the conflict progressed, she absolutely realized what she did was wrong and tried to make up for it. If you were to ask her if what she did to Julia Carpenter was the right thing to do in hindsight? She would say no. She'd say she wished she did that differently. She's one of Tony's right-hand people who started turning a blind eye to the renegade Avengers on multiple occasions instead of hauling them in... once she realized what a horrible mistake she had made. One might say she agreed with the principle concept, but surely not the execution. I think it's telling that she is the one Pro-Reg hero that the Anti-Reg side immediately embraced after Secret Invasion. What was that dialogue? "Where's Carol?" "She's with Stark." "Not so much."

She's got a history of recognizing when she's wrong. Humility can be a powerful thing... and this story isn't even half over. See where it goes.

I won't comment on Banner (while spoiled, I'm still behind)... but at least on Thanos, all I can say is if they found out Thanos was going to be on earth, he would have been pursued, no matter how they found out. She didn't exactly bring the B-list team. They all know what they signed up for.

[brettc1]

I'm a little behind on the current Civil War...

But I think one thing everybody forgets about Carol in CW1 is that her involvement did not end with her unquestionable support of Tony. As the conflict progressed, she absolutely realized what she did was wrong and tried to make up for it. If you were to ask her if what she did to Julia Carpenter was the right thing to do in hindsight? She would say no. She'd say she wished she did that differently. She's one of Tony's right-hand people who started turning a blind eye to the renegade Avengers on multiple occasions instead of hauling them in... once she realized what a horrible mistake she had made. One might say she agreed with the principle concept, but surely not the execution. I think it's telling that she is the one Pro-Reg hero that the Anti-Reg side immediately embraced after Secret Invasion. What was that dialogue? "Where's Carol?" "She's with Stark." "Not so much."

She's got a history of recognizing when she's wrong. Humility can be a powerful thing... and this story isn't even half over. See where it goes.

I won't comment on Banner (while spoiled, I'm still behind)... but at least on Thanos, all I can say is if they found out Thanos was going to be on earth, he would have been pursued, no matter how they found out. She didn't exactly bring the B-list team. They all know what they signed up for.

Sorry about the lack of spoiler warning. That was totally my bad and I have taken steps to correct it.

As for the first CW - I still remember her helping Tony to try and capture Luke Cage, Jessica Drew and the other Secret Avengers by making them believe Steve Rogers was alive after he'd been shot.

That's pretty low, by any standards.

[brettc1]

I don't think it was reckless at all, going to talk to Bruce. We know that Ulysses' visions have at least some degree of accuracy. So when they get a vision of the Hulk killing them, it's totally reasonable to go check on him. Bringing along an army of superheroes was probably a mistake, but arguably a small one.

I also don't think it was reckless to attack Thanos. A case could be made that more heroes should have been brought along, but you know what? They weren't actually necessary, and depending on the heroes, they could easily have been a liability, by getting in each others' ways. As it was, one mistake was made, and that was from Medusa not disengaging from Thanos quickly enough. That was literally the only error made. Even so, the plan still worked, and Thanos was defeated. So, no, that fight wasn't a mistake.

At this point, Carol has done nothing wrong in the main book. Her decisions have been completely reasonable, and responsible. She's doing her job, and she's doing it well within the bounds of propriety.

She had information that Banner was going lose it an kill all the heroes, and she turns up to surprise him and confront him with an army of all the heroes he is supposedly going to kill.

This, for a guy who you need to keep calm.

Anybody with half a brain should be able to see how that is going to play out badly.

Stark might disagree over not needing more heroes, considering what happened. Why take War Machine when you can take Iron Man who is, demonstrably, better equipped. Going against Thanos needs nothing less than all of your very best, especially if you are taking the fight to him on his own turf.

[dreyga2000]

I just want to point it was Monica aka Spectrum that planned the ambush on Thanos not Carol

[brettc1]

I just want to point it was Monica aka Spectrum that planned the ambush on Thanos not Carol

Good point.

[lilyinblue]

Sorry about the lack of spoiler warning. That was totally my bad and I have taken steps to correct it.

Not your fault. It's all over the internet. I was spoiled by late Wednesday morning.

[lilyinblue]

As for the first CW - I still remember her helping Tony to try and capture Luke Cage, Jessica Drew and the other Secret Avengers by making them believe Steve Rogers was alive after he'd been shot.

That's pretty low, by any standards.

That's a hard one to pin down, I'll admit. How she felt about that one seemed to vary depending on who was writing about it. But my point wasn't that she did bad things - it was that midway through, she realized what she was doing was wrong and changed her ways. The same crew she helped lead into a trap? She later blatantly and purposefully gave them opportunities to escape when she was supposed to be hauling them in. I always find it curious/frustrating that when the discussion about Carol in CW1 comes up - that her shift in behavior is often ignored.

I'll never demand that a character doesn't make mistakes. That's boring. What's bad is when they double down on them and refuse to amend their ways. In CW1... that wasn't Carol.



^ even when the trap was being set, the rift between her and Tony was starting to grow.

[Icefalcon]

How are other folks feeling at this point?

I wouldn't take anything written in an event as much of a true rendition of any character if I were you

[Wiccan]

Thanos was coming anyway. People would have to fight him anyway, and could've died in the process anyway. Blaming her for Rhodey's death is one of the most ridiculous things ever. And she had nothing to do with Hawkeye shooting Banner.

[LordAllMIghty]

I just want to point it was Monica aka Spectrum that planned the ambush on Thanos not Carol

Actually Carol/Medusa gather the heroes, while Monica thought out the strategy to fight Thanos. The ambush was alright in play before Monica said a word.

[brettc1]

Thanos was coming anyway. People would have to fight him anyway, and could've died in the process anyway. Blaming her for Rhodey's death is one of the most ridiculous things ever. And she had nothing to do with Hawkeye shooting Banner.

If Carol doesn't take a whole team to confront Banner with a super-stressful situation, Banner does not get shot in the head.

[brettc1]

That's a hard one to pin down, I'll admit. How she felt about that one seemed to vary depending on who was writing about it. But my point wasn't that she did bad things - it was that midway through, she realized what she was doing was wrong and changed her ways. The same crew she helped lead into a trap? She later blatantly and purposefully gave them opportunities to escape when she was supposed to be hauling them in. I always find it curious/frustrating that when the discussion about Carol in CW1 comes up - that her shift in behavior is often ignored.

I'll never demand that a character doesn't make mistakes. That's boring. What's bad is when they double down on them and refuse to amend their ways. In CW1... that wasn't Carol.



^ even when the trap was being set, the rift between her and Tony was starting to grow.

That is true.

But again, my original point is that she has [to my mind] now started out on the wrong side of the issue twice.

[Wiccan]

If Carol doesn't take a whole team to confront Banner with a super-stressful situation, Banner does not get shot in the head.

Pratically all the visions until now were true. Carol had no reason to think that would've been different, and even Tony felt it and went there too. Clint wasn't part of the team there, he didn't acted because Carol asked him to, and no one there tried to do anything to Bruce. And if she was there alone, Bruce would probably have felt the same way, and Clint would've done what he did anyway.