Do you consider Kyle and Kendra Latinos/Hispanic?

[Güicho]

If he is, they've done a lousy job showing it.

From way back, in reply to this debate.

...Kyle Rayner as the name suggests, was created as Irish American character from the get go, the name screams it and the character through his mom only ever identified with that name. Thats what he knew.
The years later (almost a decade into his run) retcon, that his father was named Vasquez, which has completely been ignored by most everyone since, and has developed pretty meaningless to the character himself, which is what matters. A character who never identified in any way as hispanic/Latino.

EDIT: -THIS QUOTE IS FROM PRE-OMEGA-MAN

Unless you have some image or dialogue quote where he does. I would LOVE to see it, because I would in fact love to see this character actually identify as such. Otherwise it's meaningless.

And this is the point you completely missed by your post. You can be hispanic/latino and white.
One does not negate the other.
You say Kyle is Hispanic not white!
WTh does that even mean?
Hispanic/Latino is not a particular race / skin color, but mostly a cultural/ethnic designation, reflected in name, language, upbringing, culture, identity, etc...
So it doesn't mater that he's more white, black, native american, etc. what matters is what the character identifies as.

And the character never took the name Vasquez, maybe if he'd taken (added) the name, but why would he, he's never shown to identified as that. He didn't grow up speaking spanish, or ever shown to learn it, he was never shown to connect culturally in any way.
So what to you makes him hispanic/latino.

I'm more interested about what the characters are shown to say about themselves, how they self identify.
Not the until now still meaningless wiki entry everyone loves to trot out.
If there is anything else, I'd love to see it.
The worst thing is if you are using his skin color as your "proof", is laughable.

THE ABOVE QUOTE IS FROM PRE-OMEGA-MAN

Two or three others who are often trotted out on these lists as being Latino representative are Bane and Rayner (and sometimes Saunders) .
But if you look at their actual development and history in the book, you find they are not
So it kind of bothers me when people bring them up.

I know Tom King recently championed him as DC's most "prominent Latino character" which is a wonderful intention, but looking at the character's actually history (see above) this notion is somewhat offensive. .
Learning some spanish, doesn't suddenly make you latino. It's a horrible joke, especially if other creators don't follow up on it.
And how do you, without adding scenes people will decry as cliches.

If Tom King or DC are serious about this, the strongest (and easiest) way to show it, is if the character simply adds his father's name to his own, it's 's clear, it's how he wants to identify, and you actually never have to mention it again because the character did it for you.
Later writers don't have to (unless they want to) fumble creating "cliche identifier" scenes, I wouldn't want them to have struggle with that. Because with one strong act the character by claiming the name has already done it for them, and shown how he wants to identify.

-Bane - Some creators seem to identify him as latino, others seem to completely dismiss it, his origin story can be read either way. His mother was potentially Latina(name), his dad is ambiguous. He grew up however in the prison, that was his culture. In the end, being/identifying as Latino is not a developed/ing part of his identity.
The most telling is when it came time to represent him on film the most prominent representation, as far as casting, or any reference to it, it was completely ignored as NOT part of his identity.

If when casting to be played by a real person, it's the first thing they drop as not important to the character, then stop telling me they are Latino.

Similarly Hawkgirl (Kendra Sanders)

Going by what they've given us neither Rayner or Saunders grew up culturally Latino, neither name Kyle Rayner or Kendra Saunders sounds Latino, Kyle Rayner is very Irish, the name would be one of the easiest identifiers if they wanted to identify them as Latino characters.
It seems more one of those things where one creator mentioned it in one panel and then it's rarely if ever referenced or acknowledged again by any writer, and more importantly by the character.
And that's the point, Latino isn't distinctly a race (you can be black white, native american, etc.. Latino) , it doesn't mater, it's more an ethnic cultural identity, and if the character doesn't identify that way, it's not in their name, their language, culture, their history, and the character doesn't in any way ever identify as Latino, so what makes them latino?
Nothing! except fans saying so, or a footnote on wiki, it's meaningless to the character.


I reiterate; If Tom King or DC are serious about saying Kyle is "DC's most prominent Latino character" , the strongest (and easiest) way to show it, is if the character simply adds his father's name to his own, Kyle Rayner Vazquez.

It's clear, it' shows it's how he wants to identify, and you actually never have to mention it again because the character did it for you.
Later writers don't have to (unless they want to) fumble creating "cliche identifier" scenes they have to invent to show you he's Latino.
I wouldn't want creators to have struggle with that.
And they wouldn't have to, if in one strong act the character by claiming and adding his Fathers name, has already done it for them, and shown how he wants to identify.

[mace11]

Kendra Saunders pre-flashpoint
Original name.
Kendra Saunders (New Earth)

Post flashpoint
Earth's 2 kendra full name now.
Kendra Munoz-Saunders (Earth 2)

[Güicho]

"Oh, he's half-Hispanic? Well, of course he must be a committed Catholic then!

Well the Catholicism may have come from his mother's Irish side too.
Dare Devil today one of the most prominently recognized Catholic heroes, this element wasn't even added until Born Again, two decades after his intro, and there was nothing subtle about it.


So I have no problem with them adding elements that define the character, as long as they stick with it, and the next writer doesn't contradict it.

I'm also planning to make him pray in Spanish and eat enchiladas at night! You don't think is going to be too subtle right?"

That he spoke Spanish I believe was a first, the supposed "enchiladas" thing I have no idea if you made that up or not?
But again if Tom King or DC are serious about saying Kyle is "DC's most prominent Latino character" , the strongest (and easiest) way to show it, is if the character wants to simply add his father's name to his own.
Kyle Rayner Vazquez
People would recognize that.
They don't ever have to fumble with supposed "enchilada" eating scenes.
The character has shown he wants to identify as Latino, and should be recognized as that.

Otherwise, if this is what some fan's say, and Tom King pretends is "DCs prominent Latino character" then they are doing a pretty horrible job showing the character wants to identify as such.
So far he does not, it's not in his name, it's not in his cultural/ethnic upbringing, it's not how he identifies, etc..., so STOP trotting him out as Latino, it's BS!

while another group of fans seem to consider them White characters

And if you are one of these people who thinks you can't be white and Latino, you are WRONG!

[Carabas]

I never viewed Kyle as a person of half-Mexican descent and there's other readers who haven't viewed him that way either.

I only know about this from the internet.
Rayner's heritage has not even once come up in any of the many books with him in it that I have read.

[El_Gato]

Yes I do consider Kyle and Kendra to be Latino which is why I added them to my thread. Whether people like it or not they are Latinos, just like Jaime Reyes and Renee Montoya.

In the case of Kyle it makes a lot of sense! He's from Los Angeles, CA a city and state dominated by Latinos so it would make sense that he has Mexican ancestry. I don't consider his heritage to be a recon considering they just decided to introduce his absent father and he happened to be Mexican.

[Rakzo]

Well the Catholicism may have come from his mother's Irish side too.
Dare Devil today one of the most prominently recognized Catholic heroes, this element wasn't even added until Born Again, two decades after his intro, and there was nothing subtle about it.


So I have no problem with them adding elements that define the character, as long as they stick with it, and the next writer doesn't contradict it.

The problem is not that he is Catholic.

The problem is that King came to the conclusion that he HAD to be Catholic because he was Hispanic. He didn't make him religious because he was Irish or anything like that, he especifically made him that way because he learned that he was half-Latino. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him pray in Spanish out of nowhere. That's the reason why he was such a stereotype.

At that point I was honestly expecting Kyle to scream: "Madre de Dios!" at any moment.

That he spoke Spanish I believe was a first, the supposed "enchiladas" thing I have no idea if you made that up or not?

Mixing true events with made up ones for comedic effect as usual.

[mace11]

Kyle rayner's father.

[mace11]

[Güicho]

Yeah most everyone knows that.^

That alone does not necessarily make Kyle Latino
Serious question to all.
What exactly in those scenes did he get from his father that clearly shows he from then on identifies as Latino to readers?
He obviously did not get his dads coloring, and even then Hispanic/Latino is not a particular genetic race/skin color, but mostly a cultural/ethnic designation, reflected in name, language, upbringing, culture, identity, etc... none of which Kyle got from his farther.
What then from then on shows on the pages that Kyle is/identifies as Latino?

What matters is what the character identifies as.
And up till now from what they've shown he mostlly has not.

So far he prayed in Spanish once.?

[Güicho]

the supposed "enchiladas" thing I have no idea if you made that up or not?

Mixing true events with made up ones for comedic effect as usual.

So that was BS, they never did an enchilada scene, that cliche was all you.

The problem is not that he is Catholic.

The problem is that King came to the conclusion that he HAD to be Catholic because he was Hispanic. He didn't make him religious because he was Irish or anything like that, he specifically made him that way because he learned that he was half-Latino. Otherwise he wouldn't have made him pray in Spanish out of nowhere. That's the reason why he was such a stereotype.

Eh, and I indicated decades into his creation, Miller made Murdock Catholic cause he read as Irish, that's also a cliche, and he wasn't subtle about it at all. It stuck.
What maters more is if later creators stick with it.
The "problem" as far as the topic, is the other way around , being Catholic does not identify him as Latino, so even if it was referenced by later writers, it does not make Kyle Latino.
Learning Spanish later in life doesn't make him Latino either, but it does show he's connecting with it, so if other writers (not likely) follow up on that, it would be great, but as indicated he did not grow up speaking Spanish.
Also writing it into scenes where he suddenly speaks or prays in Spanish tend to comes out forced, especially for a character who never has before.
So none of this helps.
If there's so little except fans saying so, or a footnote on wiki, it's meaningless as far as the ongoing character.
That is the "problem".

Again the easiest way IF DC genuinely wanted to Identify the character as Latino (nothing really indicates they do), would be if the character purposely added the last name Vazquez, it would show the character wants people to identify him through his Latino Father.
Everyone would recognize it.
And would spare later writers from having to write cliche scenes.

But they are not doing that, so putting him forward as some significant Latino representation seems disingenuous.

[Rakzo]

Eh, and I indicated decades into his creation, Miller made Murdock Catholic cause he read as Irish, that's also a cliche, and he wasn't subtle about it at all. It stuck.

Miller already had experience with the character before writing that particular scene, he created a legendary run that people still talk about and helped cement Matt Murdock's role in the Marvel universe so he had all the right to try to expand on it.

Also, that wasn't really stereotypical. It would have been stereotypical if Miller would have made Matt say: "Oh Jaysis! I have been praying for you since I was a wee lad!".

Finally, that was in the 80's, a time where stereotypes were not as tiring as they are now.

And it still was more subtle than Kyle's portrayal in Omega Men.

So that was BS, they never did an enchilada scene, that cliche was all you.

Je. Sus.

[Güicho]

It would have been stereotypical if Miller would have made Matt say: "Oh Jaysis! I have been praying for you since I was a wee lad!".

That is a gross exaggeration, Tom King didn't have Kyle speak with heavy accent and cliche dialect written out phonetically. So that is not a good comparison. Just you exaggerating again.

"Oh, he's half-Hispanic? Well, of course he must be a committed Catholic then! I'm also planning to make him pray in Spanish and eat enchiladas at night! You don't think is going to be too subtle right?"

Just like he didn't have him eat enchiladas, another gross exaggeration by you. stop BSing.

[Rakzo]

Boy dude, you're just grasping at straws at this point.

I'm out.

[Carabas]

In the case of Kyle it makes a lot of sense! He's from Los Angeles, CA a city and state dominated by Latinos so it would make sense that he has Mexican ancestry. I don't consider his heritage to be a recon considering they just decided to introduce his absent father and he happened to be Mexican.

That is what a retcon is: retroactive continuity. Like introducing new stuff into his past that wasn't there before.

[Doctor Know]

The rub about Kyle's Latin heritage, is that it never made an impact on his character. He was the same before the retcon, and he's the same after it. A lot like Marvel changing Pietro and Wanda's status from mutants and children of Magneto, to cast off experiments of the High Evolutionary; who have been "masquerading as mutants" for decades. Nothing else has been done with these changes since, so why make them?