"Batgirl and the Birds of Prey" Solidifies "Killing Joke" In Rebirth Continuity

[Cmbmool]

I don't really get why this is "news"? Did anyone really believe that ambiguous panel from the previous Batgirl to be an official retcon?

The real headline should've been that Barbara's past as Oracle is back in continuity, as it should always have been. Having TKJ happen without her becoming Oracle was a disservice to the character, this way she's much more interesting.

It maybe back in her history, but for how long it was and did it made an impact like it did before should have been the following questions to this reveal.

[kevink31593]

...let's be frank, Barbara Gordon was a character at that point with 20+ years worth of stories and fandom, and she was effectively thrown under the bus all for the sake of Batman and Gordon being able to "rise above it."

She is very popular now, but let's not pretend that she was a hugely popular character at the time. At the time of The Killing Joke in 1988, Barbara Gordon was basically in limbo. Her last appearance in the main Bat books pre-TKJ was 5 years(!) earlier in 1983's Detectve Comics #526. She had only been making a handful of appearances around the DCU during that time. Frank Miller even forgot about her when writing Batman Year One in 1987. Alan Moore took a character that was barely being used, and used her in a story about Batman, Joker, and the Comissioner.

[JBatmanFan05]

She is very popular now, but let's not pretend that she was a hugely popular character at the time. At the time of The Killing Joke in 1988, Barbara Gordon was basically in limbo. Her last appearance in the main Bat books pre-TKJ was 5 years(!) earlier in 1983's Detectve Comics #526. She had only been making a handful of appearances around the DCU during that time. Frank Miller even forgot about her when writing Batman Year One in 1987. Alan Moore took a character that was barely being used, and used her in a story about Batman, Joker, and the Comissioner.

Absolutely great spot on point. Context is key and the context of Babs in 1988 was she was practically dead as a character. The same forces that dumped Bronze Age Superman for Byrne had dumped Babs and some other lighter Batman characters. There was this shame and air of trying to shed some of the silliness of Batman and Superman's worlds.

[Clark_Kent]

I've never fully understood the "controversy" over Bab's treatment. Violence against women? Don't women want to be held to Be seen on the same level as men? And not treated like special snowflakes, but as equals? So why do people get bent out of shape? I guess what I mean is, you can't have your cake & eat it too. You either want women treated the same as men, or you want them sheltered & protected. TKJ displayed violence, period. Just because the character was female doesn't mean it should matter more.

Plus, like someone else said - she hadn't been used in years. This event allowed DC to eventually create one of the greatest characters in comics - Oracle - and was an inspiration to people that your disabilities don't mean you're useless to society. Stuck in a wheelchair? You can still save the world. Personally, I thought it was more controversial for them to handwave away her disability to let her walk again, and downplaying that segment of their readership, but that's probably just me.

[batsgrayson]

I've never fully understood the "controversy" over Bab's treatment. Violence against women? Don't women want to be held to Be seen on the same level as men? And not treated like special snowflakes, but as equals? So why do people get bent out of shape? I guess what I mean is, you can't have your cake & eat it too. You either want women treated the same as men, or you want them sheltered & protected. TKJ displayed violence, period. Just because the character was female doesn't mean it should matter more.

Right, lets all just pretend that the mistreatment of female characters is on par with male ones.

[Karmasaywhat]

I've never fully understood the "controversy" over Bab's treatment. Violence against women? Don't women want to be held to Be seen on the same level as men? And not treated like special snowflakes, but as equals? So why do people get bent out of shape? I guess what I mean is, you can't have your cake & eat it too. You either want women treated the same as men, or you want them sheltered & protected. TKJ displayed violence, period. Just because the character was female doesn't mean it should matter more.

When a prominent woman/poc/lgbt character is killed off or injured or sidelined, that basically equates to a quarter or a third or even half of their representation being done away with. There are so few active minority characters out there, that a decision to break even one of them down results in a drought of diversity. Minority characters, since they're not pushed as much, are also more prone to being treated as expendable. Every time Vixen appears in a comic, I am SO nervous for her.

When they sidelined Cassandra Cain, the only prominent Asian superhero leading a book at the time, that was basically 100% of DC's Asian female representation down the drain. When a white male character is injured or dealt with violently, they're almost certain to come back in a few months, and there are a bazillion other white male heroes to root for in the meantime.

I'm ALL for equal treatment when the consequences of so-called 'equality' aren't so skewed. Women want to be seen on the same level as men--but that includes actually being seen first.

[Clark_Kent]

Right, lets all just pretend that the mistreatment of female characters is on par with male ones.

This type of response adds nothing to the conversation.

When a prominent woman/poc/lgbt character is killed off or injured or sidelined, that basically equates to a quarter or a third or even half of their representation being done away with. There are so few active minority characters out there, that a decision to break even one of them down results in a drought of diversity. Minority characters, since they're not pushed as much, are also more prone to being treated as expendable. Every time Vixen appears in a comic, I am SO nervous for her.

When they sidelined Cassandra Cain, the only prominent Asian superhero leading a book at the time, that was basically 100% of DC's Asian female representation down the drain. When a white male character is injured or dealt with violently, they're almost certain to come back in a few months, and there are a bazillion other white male heroes to root for in the meantime.

I'm ALL for equal treatment when the consequences of so-called 'equality' aren't so skewed. Women want to be seen on the same level as men--but that includes actually being seen first.

This type of response is well thought out, and provides a nice counterpoint.

To be honest, I hadn't considered the last line of your post before (the being seen part); although I still believe people get too bent out of shape over the fates of comic book characters (any of them), you have given me something to think about. Thanks, and cheers.

[dancj]

There are two things that happened here.

1 - There was violence against a woman. I don't have a major issue with this. Violence seems reasonably at home in a story featuring a psychopath. He also killed the man at the fairground and stripped Gordon naked so it was doled out fairly evenly.

2 - They (potentially) removed a female character in a world where women are under-represented.

Fair point on that one, but nothing in the story (IIRC) suggested she was permanently paralysed. They could have had her running around in costume a few months later without contradicting anything, so I can't really blame The Killing Joke here. That was an editorial decision.

That would have bothered me more if they'd done it with a more independent female character (Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Big Barda etc) rather than yet another female version of a male character.

[Aahz]

Fair point on that one, but nothing in the story (IIRC) suggested she was permanently paralysed. They could have had her running around in costume a few months later without contradicting anything, so I can't really blame The Killing Joke here. That was an editorial decision.

I think i read some that some writer had planed to put her in cyber suit, similar to what they are doing with the Eart-2 Dick Grayson. But that never happened and later her popularity as oracle prevented her from being healed, like it usually happens with other heros that got injured or loose their powers ect.

[DurararaFTW]

I've never fully understood the "controversy" over Bab's treatment. Violence against women? Don't women want to be held to Be seen on the same level as men? And not treated like special snowflakes, but as equals? So why do people get bent out of shape? I guess what I mean is, you can't have your cake & eat it too. You either want women treated the same as men, or you want them sheltered & protected. TKJ displayed violence, period. Just because the character was female doesn't mean it should matter more.

Plus, like someone else said - she hadn't been used in years. This event allowed DC to eventually create one of the greatest characters in comics - Oracle - and was an inspiration to people that your disabilities don't mean you're useless to society. Stuck in a wheelchair? You can still save the world. Personally, I thought it was more controversial for them to handwave away her disability to let her walk again, and downplaying that segment of their readership, but that's probably just me.

Killing Joke didn't just have her shot, but stripped naked and worse so as to torment the prominent male figure of her life with a roller coaster filled with pictures of her being abused by the Joker and his henchmen in various ways. And it was presented as an experience for James Gordon to overcome, not Barbara. I don't think the storyarc was a testament for equal treatment of men and women.

[neonrideraryeh]

Killing Joke didn't just have her shot, but stripped naked

They were originally going to strip her naked and there is older draft art that has that, but they decided to not go that direction. The final published product doesn't have nakedness. She isn't wearing too much but they didn't go that far in the end. A lot of people who didn't read it think that is the case though.

[darkseidpwns]

They were originally going to strip her naked and there is older draft art that has that, but they decided to not go that direction. The final published product doesn't have nakedness. She isn't wearing too much but they didn't go that far in the end. A lot of people who didn't read it think that is the case though.

What about the pics of her butt?

[DurararaFTW]

This was in the published release wasn't it?

[Aioros22]

Don`t really care whether it`s supported by continuity or not. The story works quite well on it`s own regardless.

[Atlanta96]

That... was a bit harsh. But I agree that what happened to Jason was even more horrifying than what happened to Barbara. Mostly because he, well, died horribly. Even his resurrection was disturbing. Waking up in your own grave is just creepy.