The Eradicator's Plan Revealed, With Deadly Results In "Superman" #3

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

To this day I read people online asking (in confused way) "When did Post-Crisis Superman come into the new 52 Universe?" after reading Superman Rebirth #1. Always someone has to explain that Lois & Clark miniseries exists. The mere existence of it, even after Rebirth, has fallen under the radar. Perhaps DC did not market it enough or very well, or made the connection between L&C and Rebirth Superman explicit enough more. Lack of mindshare is the only likely explanation. There is nothing else (there is no general antipathy for the Post-Crisis version--quite the opposite; and reviews have generally been positive) that can explain it as such an outlier in sales.

They marketed it fine.

Featuring a specific version of a character as your only selling point isn't enough. If they did the same thing with New 52 Superman, you'd get the same results.

The number of people that care enough to buy a comic because it features New 52 Superman, or because it features Post-Crisis Superman are insignificant.

I am not saying the majority of readers dislike Post-Crisis Superman or dislike New 52 Superman, because that's not true. It's that they don't care enough for it to make a difference, as long as they get a Superman.

[Sacred Knight]

Yep, it was marketed fine, it just didn't sell. You'd have to ask the fans who wanted the post-Crisis version back so bad why they didn't jump back on board with that, but if they follow comics they certainly can't claim ignorance.

[adrikito]

Here's the data for print sales:

New 52 Superman #1 - 118,376
Superman Rebirth #1 - 118,434
Superman #1 - 105,380

In print sales, Superman Rebirth #1 did a little more than New 52 Superman #1, while Superman #1 did less. These just 1st printings (New 52 included), and the Rebirth books were under ordered, so even Superman #1 might outsell New 52 Superman #1 in print sales in the coming months, but unless we see an increase on the level that other books have, it won't be because of a specific version of the character.

This is what I mean.

New 52 Wonder Woman #1 - 76,214
Wonder Woman Rebirth #1 - 94,458
Wonder Woman #1 - 107,737

New 52 Batman #1 - 188,420
Batman Rebirth #1 - 199,807
Batman #1 - 280,360

Wonder Woman's print sales increased by the tens of thousands. Batman's increase is massive.

Batman.....YOU ARE THE BEST..
qmbatman-family.jpg

WE ARE BATMAN.. I do not understand that rise ... People furious for N52 abandon, even batman? I doubt it's only because more fans came after the begin of N52.

I'm glad Wonderwoman has risen, although I am out.. I find unpleasant recover all his past(even origin?) and remove all when N52 made with her(origin, couple, costume, NOTHING HAS BEEN SAVED )... and I hate Trevor..

OHHH... Both versions share a similar success.. and jurgens speaks about lois like the mistake of this superman? DC, you pull the strings of superman, it's your fault. With Lois, he had passed the post-crisis version success..

I hope DC never opt for a fusion.. although the existence of clark kent is a problem that wound up in that, for increase his success, some people would fall into that trap..

[BeefBourguignon]

They marketed it fine.

Featuring a specific version of a character as your only selling point isn't enough. If they did the same thing with New 52 Superman, you'd get the same results.

The number of people that care enough to buy a comic because it features New 52 Superman, or because it features Post-Crisis Superman are insignificant.

I am not saying the majority of readers dislike Post-Crisis Superman or dislike New 52 Superman, because that's not true. It's that they don't care enough for it to make a difference, as long as they get a Superman.

I am talking about Post-Crisis fans who did not know. People who had no idea he was back but were happy about it. Obviously not marketed fine.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I am talking about Post-Crisis fans who did not know. People who had no idea he was back but were happy about it. Obviously not marketed fine.

Every single Post-Crisis fan not knowing that Lois & Clark was a thing does not mean that it was not marketed fine.

It was advertised just like any other comic book, got attention at Comic-Con, and had the added benefit of getting advertising space in every single DC book for a period of time. Awareness of it was high enough that issue #1 was reviewed by just as many people as Action Comics #41, the issue that set off 'Truth'.

Unless people were expecting DC to track down every single Post-Crisis fan personally and tell them about Lois & Clark, they did enough to adequately market it.

[DieHard200904]

I hate everything about the Superman line. I think it's time for me to just part ways with all the books for the near future.

Never hurts to take a break. Unfortunately, I am not buying as many comics at all as I would like either. I wouldn't mind sending all of you my usual joke or two every now and then. Some things are just more busy than I thought or was expecting.

[suemorphplus209]

Batman.....YOU ARE THE BEST..
qmbatman-family.jpg

WE ARE BATMAN.. I do not understand that rise ... People furious for N52 abandon, even batman? I doubt it's only because more fans came after the begin of N52.

I'm glad Wonderwoman has risen, although I am out.. I find unpleasant recover all his past(even origin?) and remove all when N52 made with her(origin, couple, costume, NOTHING HAS BEEN SAVED )... and I hate Trevor..

OHHH... Both versions share a similar success.. and jurgens speaks about lois like the mistake of this superman? DC, you pull the strings of superman, it's your fault. With Lois, he had passed the post-crisis version success..

I hope DC never opt for a fusion.. although the existence of clark kent is a problem that wound up in that, for increase his success, some people would fall into that trap..

DK3 isn't that bad, including its own Superman. I like DK Batman's quote, "Let me show you son!". I understand you don't like it, I guess.

[The Shredder]

It wasn't expected to match the the highs that New 52 issues had reached, but it wasn't expected to be one of the lowest selling Superman books in the last 20 years.

The series was cut from 12 issues to 8, and since Jurgens has said that he knew Post-Crisis Superman was going to headline the main books before he even wrote the 1st issue, that Rebirth was not responsible for the series getting cut. It and Titans Rebirth managed to sell enough to be cut down to just 8 issues, unlike Telos which was cut down to 6.

Superman spin-off books don't sell, I understand what you mean, but this was one of the lowest selling Superman comics in a long time. The only one I can think of that sold worse is Superman/Supergirl: Maelstrom, from 2009.

This is why I mention the perception of the book, right out the gate, can either make a break a title in the eyes of the readers DC is hoping to attract. Even for a guy like me, who's not at all salty about the shift in direction with Rebirth, had very little interest in reading a Superman comic featuring Post-Crisis Superman riding off into the sunset. Which was indeed, the perceived/speculated ending to the once-12 issue mini. In addition, the timetable to produce such a book was a sure detriment in itself. As a business move, which steadily produces Superman books each and every month, I'm not sure how wise it was to do something like L&C nearly 5 years after those specific versions practically disappeared. 1 year? Sure. 2 years? Maybe. 4 1/2 years? ehhh ....

Other Superman spin-off books, like American Alien for example, performed better than Lois & Clark. In the case of American Alien, digitally it even outcharted the main Superman books, something Lois & Clark didn't do.

Didn't know that, but not at all surprised. Easy for readers to follow, doesn't really require any knowledge/history of the character, and a complete fresh take. There's a reason why Independent comic companies have enjoyed success in recent years, and American Alien falls right into that. Plus Landis has a fan base, and that couldn't hurt any.

Lois & Clark continued to poorly even after it was known that Post-Crisis Superman was going to take over the main books. It continued to lose readers even after Rebirth was announced.

It can be excused for not performing as well as the main books, but there's no excuse for it performing as poorly as it did.

Pretty much goes with the jumping on board argument. Why would some readers spend the extra cash on a series that was perceived as being insignificant or trivial right from the jump, where they can simply wait until the relaunch to jump on board? Not everyone has the time and money to collect spin offs and mini-series of characters they may even like. It becomes even more questionable when the big relaunch is on the horizon. Convergence Speedforce, like L&C, can be advertised at nauseum. If it's thought of as ultimately insignificant by even just a decent portion of the readership, be prepared to take a hit in sales.

What I'm saying is that from the sales data available to us, there's nothing telling us that a majority of readers prefer one version of Superman over another enough to buy or not buy a book to make a difference.

It's not about it being solely one version. I thought I stated as such in previous posts? Timing, relaunches, how it's executed, justified, expanded upon can and will affect sales and overall perception as well. I recall a fairly lukewarm response to Convergence as a whole, and the same goes for any 'returns' anyone can think of as well. Including Post-Crisis Superman, Pre-Flashpoint Wally West, ect. It wasn't until Rebirth was announced and later published, that these returns that actually had already transpired a year earlier, resulted in fans rejoicing. Case in point, it had more bite to it. Something the readership deemed worthy of sinking their teeth into. Was that fair to Convergence and their stories where these characters returned from long hiatuses? No. Not at all. It is what it is.

Yes, the New 52 sales fell just like the Post-Crisis sales, going to my point that the version of Superman doesn't really matter. It also has to be pointed out that while print sales fell to Pre-Flashpoint levels, digital sales meant that the New 52 Superman books were still selling thousands more copies per issue than Pre-Flashpoint.

It's the same thing that's guaranteeing that Post-Rebirth Superman is selling more than New 52 Superman, because print sales are actually around the same level.

At what time are we talking about. Just prior to Rebirth level? 2015? 2014? 2013? Once again, I'm saying it's not solely about what version, it's just not that simple unfortunately. Do I believe it plays some sort of factor? You bet. Is it the defining issue and sole reason? No. Otherwise that would have been exploited in record mass like "Death" issues a long time ago. However, the entire Rebirth initiative is about, amongst other things, familiarity. Which was a big sticking point for so many readers of the New 52, and became a detriment as the years slogged on. How stuff like this truly impacts sales is anyone's guess, but much like 2010, clearly DC in 2015 was in a bad place and something needed to be done. We really are at a moment in time where we don't know how DC's Rebirth will pan out for the long term, and i'm sure we'll be having to skim thru posts a year from now about how awful the direction is, but surfing around the net, it appears a good amount of fans are digging it. Much like the New 52, we'll see if it has the impact DC is hoping for.

It also needs to be said that Rebirth has launched with more hype than the New 52.

I can't say I ever perceived Rebirth being even more hyped than the New 52, and still don't to be perfectly honest. To me, New 52 hype was on a whole other level, where All-New All Different Marvel or Rebirth were distant 2nds/3rds if we're going on the sole sticking point of hype. Perhaps you're right and Rebirth's hype was the most anticipated relaunch DC's ever had, but I never got that vibe. Actually I felt New52's launch was more anticipation than anything else, where Rebirth's was met with a certain air of skepticism. Course that quieted down substantially following the Rebirth one shot.

[Potanical Pardon]

The sales for Superman titles before New 52 were doing shitty because the writing and direction of the Super books were shitty ever since that walkabout arc that Lee drew. The character, background and supporting characters were the same. New 52 did away with all the remaining redeeming stuff and continued with the shitty writing. Morrison's Action is an Elseworlds to me. Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Superman titles were just schlock writing. New Krypton could have been an awesome story. Mon-El as Superman, Superwoman, Zod's kid, the bajillion Zods, crappy Kara (love Kara Zor-El, but her title and appearances sucked), Superboy's writing shot from great to crap back and forth. Superman used to have 4 titles at a time; five when they wanted to fill those fifth weeks with Man of Tomorrow. Gradually it got reduced back to Action, Superman ended, and Adventures of renamed to Superman. THAT's the point in time when Superman stories began to suck, not right before New 52. The Superman appearing now post-Rebirth has jack shit to do with 2004ish Superman-through-preFlashpoint. None of those stories will be referenced ever. He has everything to do with 1985 Man of Steel Byrneman through Death-Jurgens through even the dumb Millennium Giants/Superman Blue/Red through "Conner Kent", Matrix/Linda Danvers, JLA Superman, Loeb-McGuinness Timmversified Superman up to the return of Kara Zor-El. That's the target for both sales and story direction that's being chosen in favor over Nuperman. Where Superman got back his pre-1985 histories (symbolically), mojo, power levels, Lex in a Battlesuit, etc. Pretty much everything before Didio came into power. There was a glimmer of hope when Johns came aboard and Donner's name used as co-writer even though I doubt he did anything, but then Johns got busy again as he always did and Didio would inadvertently kill the book he set up for success (Hawkman-to-Hawkgirl, JSA to Justice Society of America, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, The Flash, Vibe, whatever else...it happened to all of them).

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

This is why I mention the perception of the book, right out the gate, can either make a break a title in the eyes of the readers DC is hoping to attract. Even for a guy like me, who's not at all salty about the shift in direction with Rebirth, had very little interest in reading a Superman comic featuring Post-Crisis Superman riding off into the sunset. Which was indeed, the perceived/speculated ending to the once-12 issue mini.

That may have been your perception, and it may have turned you off from picking up the book, but it was not what was said online by the majority of people that actually spoke about the series. Almost all the comments I've seen on articles about the book are positive, with people expressing their excitement for the return of Post-Crisis Superman.

I can link you to several articles where people that wanted the Post-Crisis Superman back, are expressing their excitement for the series. Can you link me people saying they weren't going to pick it up for the reasons you've said?

For starters, here's the CBR announcement.

No one expresses hesitation to buy the book because of the reasons you've suggested.

http://community.comicbookresources....f-Titles/page5

In addition, the timetable to produce such a book was a sure detriment in itself. As a business move, which steadily produces Superman books each and every month, I'm not sure how wise it was to do something like L&C nearly 5 years after those specific versions practically disappeared. 1 year? Sure. 2 years? Maybe. 4 1/2 years? ehhh ....

Judging by the sales, it wasn't very wise at all. It was cut from 12 to 8 issues.

IDidn't know that, but not at all surprised. Easy for readers to follow, doesn't really require any knowledge/history of the character, and a complete fresh take. There's a reason why Independent comic companies have enjoyed success in recent years, and American Alien falls right into that.

And this is what I mean. The version of Superman matters so little, as long as the basics are there.

Landis creates a new version of Superman, and it does better than a version of Superman that had been around for decades.

But American Alien is just one example, because as I've pointed out, Lois & Clark is one of lowest selling Superman comics in 20 years.

It's not a failure because it didn't perform as well as some Superman comics, but because it performed worse than most Superman comics.

Plus Landis has a fan base, and that couldn't hurt any.

Apparently a bigger fanbase than people that care deeply about a specific version of Superman, in Post-Crisis.

His fan base explains why it sold better than the main books digitally, but not why it outsold Lois & Clark in print as well.

Pretty much goes with the jumping on board argument. Why would some readers spend the extra cash on a series that was perceived as being insignificant or trivial right from the jump, where they can simply wait until the relaunch to jump on board?

Because the announcement that Post-Crisis Superman was going to take over the main titles meant that Lois & Clark wasn't insignificant. It explained how he got to the new Universe and what he had been doing.

Not everyone has the time and money to collect spin offs and mini-series of characters they may even like.

But they had enough money to spend it on other Superman comics, which is why Lois & Clark is one of the lowest Superman selling comics in 20 years, and not American Alien or various other Superman spin-off comics.

It becomes even more questionable when the big relaunch is on the horizon.

Even if we accept that people were going to hold out for Rebirth, it doesn't explain why people that were already buying and reading the book dropped it.

IConvergence Speedforce, like L&C, can be advertised at nauseum. If it's thought of as ultimately insignificant by even just a decent portion of the readership, be prepared to take a hit in sales.

Convergence Speed Force did much better than Lois & Clark.

Convergence Speed Force did better than many issues of New 52 Flash, while Lois & Clark is one of the lowest selling Superman comics of the last 20 years.

IIt's not about it being solely one version. I thought I stated as such in previous posts? Timing, relaunches, how it's executed, justified, expanded upon can and will affect sales and overall perception as well.

You did, but when you argue that the performance of the Superman books now indicate that the version of the character significantly matters, you are not taking those into account.

I recall a fairly lukewarm response to Convergence as a whole, and the same goes for any 'returns' anyone can think of as well. Including Post-Crisis Superman, Pre-Flashpoint Wally West, ect.

The main event was not well received, but many of the minis were.

Superman Convergence did decent numbers, even if was outsold by New 52 Superman that same month, and I listed several Convergence minis that performed better than the preceding issues of the New 52 versions.

IIt wasn't until Rebirth was announced and later published, that these returns that actually had already transpired a year earlier, resulted in fans rejoicing. Case in point, it had more bite to it. Something the readership deemed worthy of sinking their teeth into. Was that fair to Convergence and their stories where these characters returned from long hiatuses? No. Not at all. It is what it is..

Fans rejoiced for the Convergence minis.

Like I already pointed out, several of the Convergence minis outsold the New 52 issues that had come out the month before, many were well received.

The Superman mini sold fine. It didn't perform as well as the main Superman book, but it was well received.

At what time are we talking about. Just prior to Rebirth level? 2015? 2014? 2013?

Any time that sales fell into Pre-Flashpoint territory.

Digital sales meant that the Superman books never sold below what the Superman books were doing before Flashpoint.

Once again, I'm saying it's not solely about what version, it's just not that simple unfortunately. Do I believe it plays some sort of factor? You bet. Is it the defining issue and sole reason? No. Otherwise that would have been exploited in record mass like "Death" issues a long time ago.

But you think it plays a significant factor, which isn't backed up by how the Superman books have performed with Rebirth.

Post-Rebirth Superman is only outselling New 52 Superman because of digital sales. Without digital sales, all the Post-Rebirth Superman books would be selling less than the New 52 launch, except for Superman Rebirth #1 if you count just the 1st print sales for New 52 Superman #1.

New 52 Superman was always selling more than Post-Crisis Superman before Flashpoint, when you account for digital sales. It doesn't mean he was significantly more liked than Post-Crisis by the majority of readers, just like the 2 months Post-Rebirth Superman has been doing than New 52 Superman (not Action), don't mean that he's significantly more liked by readers.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

However, the entire Rebirth initiative is about, amongst other things, familiarity. Which was a big sticking point for so many readers of the New 52, and became a detriment as the years slogged on. How stuff like this truly impacts sales is anyone's guess, but much like 2010, clearly DC in 2015 was in a bad place and something needed to be done. We really are at a moment in time where we don't know how DC's Rebirth will pan out for the long term, and i'm sure we'll be having to skim thru posts a year from now about how awful the direction is, but surfing around the net, it appears a good amount of fans are digging it. Much like the New 52, we'll see if it has the impact DC is hoping for.

And none of that has do to with the version of the character, as per sales performance.

You didn't acknowledge sections of my post where I pointed out how Superman has seen little increase compared to other books, and other cases for that demonstrate why the version of the character doesn't matter so I'll copy/paste those parts.

Here's the data for print sales:

New 52 Superman #1 - 118,376
Superman Rebirth #1 - 118,434
Superman #1 - 105,380

In print sales, Superman Rebirth #1 did a little more than New 52 Superman #1, while Superman #1 did less. These just 1st printings (New 52 included), and the Rebirth books were under ordered, so even Superman #1 might outsell New 52 Superman #1 in print sales in the coming months, but unless we see an increase on the level that other books have, it won't be because of a specific version of the character.

This is what I mean.

New 52 Wonder Woman #1 - 76,214
Wonder Woman Rebirth #1 - 94,458
Wonder Woman #1 - 107,737

New 52 Batman #1 - 188,420
Batman Rebirth #1 - 199,807
Batman #1 - 280,360

Wonder Woman's print sales increased by the tens of thousands. Batman's increase is massive.

There are other books that performed closer to the Superman books, or worse, but there's a difference between how they chart in print and how they chart digitally that explain their print sales. For example, Flash sold less than New 52 Flash #1, but it performs better digitally, outselling books that outsell it in print. The same is true of Titans Rebirth.

This is not the case for the Superman books. They perform the same digitally as they do in print. They are doing what you expect from a well received relaunch.

For other books, the insignificant boost or lack of boost is explainable. Geoff Johns is not on Green Lantern or Flash is seeing a better digital performance, etc.

If the version mattered a lot. If this was the case, the Superman books would be outselling even New 52 Action Comics at launch, which they aren't. I don't mean just Post-Rebirth Action Comics, but even Post-Rebirth Superman.

If the version of the character actually mattered that much.

Even with digital sales, it's unlikely that the Post-Rebirth Superman issues will reach the total sales of Action Comics #1. In print sales, it took until issue 4 of Action Comics for it to reach the level that Superman Rebirth #1 launched at, and until issue 5 for it to reach the level Superman #1 launched at, and that's 1st printings for all the books mentioned.

This wasn't because people preferred the T-Shirts and Jeans Superman, but because the book had Grant Morrison attached to it and because Action Comics #1 was a new #1. At that time, it was outselling New 52 Detective Comics, while Post-Rebirth, Detective Comics is outselling Action Comics.

Another example of this is Superman Unchained #1, which sold over 250, 000 in print and at least a few thousand more in print.

It's unlikely that even the combined print and digital sales of Superman Rebirth #1 will sell more than Superman Unchained #1's first printing. That's not because people prefer New 52 Superman to Post-Crisis Superman in Rebirth, but because of the team of Scott Snyder and Jim Lee.

Jim Lee's Post-Crisis Superman debut issue even sold a little less than Unchained #1, but that's not because of version preference either.

I also want to point out that New 52 launch comics were also selling well digitally at the time. New 52 Justice League #1 broke DC's digital record for best and fastest seller.

The reason I don't include those digital sales when speaking of digital sales now, is because the digital market is much bigger now, meaning sales then would have been much lower anyway, not enough to put them over current good digital sellers and because I wasn't keeping track of digital sales back then.

The Superman books are doing well, both in print and digitally, but they are not performing well enough to suggest that the version of the character starring in the books is having a significant impact on sales. Other books have seen a bigger increase in sales, while not featuring the return of a specific version of the character.

The Superman books are performing as well as you could expect a relaunch to perform, it is not performing so well that it implies there's preference for one version over another to the point where it significantly effects sales.

There's also the matter of market health, when the New 52 launched, it took the top 5 spots for that year. This year, despite selling more than the New 52 launch, neither Batman #1 or DC Universe Rebirth #1 will take the number 1 spot.

Another example is that of Green Lanterns, and Green Lanterns Corps/Green Lanterns: New Guardians.

Green Lanterns Rebirth #1 did 99,504 in print sales and Green Lanterns #1 did 84,910. New Guardians #1 did 84,033, and Green Lantern Corps #1 did 74,769. Digital sales means Green Lanterns sold even more.

That's a bigger increase than what Superman saw with Rebirth. That doesn't mean the majority of readers prefer Cruz and Baz to either Kyle, or John and Guy more than people prefer Post-Crisis Superman to New 52 Superman.

So what's the case for the version of the character actually mattering? Because as the sales data shows, there isn't one.

I can't say I ever perceived Rebirth being even more hyped than the New 52, and still don't to be perfectly honest. To me, New 52 hype was on a whole other level, where All-New All Different Marvel or Rebirth were distant 2nds/3rds if we're going on the sole sticking point of hype. Perhaps you're right and Rebirth's hype was the most anticipated relaunch DC's ever had, but I never got that vibe. Actually I felt New52's launch was more anticipation than anything else, where Rebirth's was met with a certain air of skepticism. Course that quieted down substantially following the Rebirth one shot.

DC Universe Rebirth #1 launched to bigger sales than Justice League #1. The additional copies it sold, and it's digital performance demonstrate how well received it was.

The female Thor is hated online, but she does very well in sales, especially digitally. During Scott Snyder's Batman run, there were plenty of people that spoke against it on these forums, but that didn't stop the series from selling 100, 000 or more copies per issue.

Lois & Clark was getting nearly universal praise online. This forum was the one exception with members like me that would heavily criticize it. If you were to believe the online chatter about the book, it was going to be a resounding success.

This the problem with going by internet chatter alone or going with small sample size. The likes and dislikes of forum posters or some people at your local comic shop don't dictate actual hype, or how well a comic is going to do.

As per how DC Universe #1 launched and Justice League #1 launched, Rebirth launched with more hype than the New 52.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Based on the sales data we have, I could actually make a more convincing case that people prefer New 52 Superman to Post-Rebirth Post-Crisis Superman, than the other way around.

But it wouldn't be true, because what the data really says is that the version doesn't really matter.

And based on how the latest issue of Action Comics is placing digitally, I think that book is already on its way to performing like Pre-Rebirth Action Comics, unless this issue's performance is just an anomaly.

[Sacred Knight]

The sales for Superman titles before New 52 were doing shitty because the writing and direction of the Super books were shitty ever since that walkabout arc that Lee drew. The character, background and supporting characters were the same. New 52 did away with all the remaining redeeming stuff and continued with the shitty writing. Morrison's Action is an Elseworlds to me. Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Superman titles were just schlock writing. New Krypton could have been an awesome story. Mon-El as Superman, Superwoman, Zod's kid, the bajillion Zods, crappy Kara (love Kara Zor-El, but her title and appearances sucked), Superboy's writing shot from great to crap back and forth. Superman used to have 4 titles at a time; five when they wanted to fill those fifth weeks with Man of Tomorrow. Gradually it got reduced back to Action, Superman ended, and Adventures of renamed to Superman. THAT's the point in time when Superman stories began to suck, not right before New 52. The Superman appearing now post-Rebirth has jack shit to do with 2004ish Superman-through-preFlashpoint. None of those stories will be referenced ever. He has everything to do with 1985 Man of Steel Byrneman through Death-Jurgens through even the dumb Millennium Giants/Superman Blue/Red through "Conner Kent", Matrix/Linda Danvers, JLA Superman, Loeb-McGuinness Timmversified Superman up to the return of Kara Zor-El. That's the target for both sales and story direction that's being chosen in favor over Nuperman. Where Superman got back his pre-1985 histories (symbolically), mojo, power levels, Lex in a Battlesuit, etc. Pretty much everything before Didio came into power. There was a glimmer of hope when Johns came aboard and Donner's name used as co-writer even though I doubt he did anything, but then Johns got busy again as he always did and Didio would inadvertently kill the book he set up for success (Hawkman-to-Hawkgirl, JSA to Justice Society of America, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, The Flash, Vibe, whatever else...it happened to all of them).

The Byrne origin needs to die for good. It had overstayed its welcome over ten years ago. Its not any better now. Its an anathema to Superman lore and needs to stay gone. If they must keep the post-Crisis version, give him a new origin, closer to Morrison's own (its not an Elseworlds, it is rather the best canon origin the character has had since the pre-Crisis days), and if they reference post-Crisis history as mixing in with the new origin due to the restored missing years, start with around when Jurgens initially took over.

Thankfully it looks like this will be something close to the case as we've already seen glimpses of this Superman's past utilizing Morrison's rocket as opposed to the birthing matrix. In fact if it turns out this is New 52 Superman verbatim, just older, as is a popular theory, then Morrison's origin would still be in canon pretty much word for word. To me, that would be the best possible solution out of a bad idea.

[Potanical Pardon]

The Byrne origin needs to die for good. It had overstayed its welcome over ten years ago. Its not any better now. Its an anathema to Superman lore and needs to stay gone. If they must keep the post-Crisis version, give him a new origin, closer to Morrison's own (its not an Elseworlds, it is rather the best canon origin the character has had since the pre-Crisis days), and if they reference post-Crisis history as mixing in with the new origin due to the restored missing years, start with around when Jurgens initially took over.

It was already replaced. Twice. Once before overstaying it's welcome over 10 years ago. Elements from it are still retained as far as inclusion. The only one Morrison's was better than is Johns. It's pretty much Birthright > American Alien (I'm including it because this will probably become canon) > BIIIIIIIIIIIIG GAP > MoS > Morrison's Action > Secret Origins.

For fun, I'd put Red Son, The Nail, and Speeding Bullets within the big gap. Over time, I grew to not like MoS due to what I believe Superman should be. A year ago when I was finally able to get my wife to show any interest in Superman (she loves comics, just thinks Superman is super stupid and lame), I put together some things for her to read, MoS, among them. I ended up rereading it and it's a lot better than I had recalled. It's a solid standalone story, despite underpowered Supes (probably my single only gripe along with oxygen masks in space). Probably my growing hate for Byrne overall contributed during the entire 90s and 2000s to thinking less of it, but it really is not bad at all.

It's probably not a popular opinion, but I do place MoS above Morrison's, though I'll agree that in my order, were they swapped, I'd be fine with it too. Morrison's AS Superman > Morrison's JLA Superman > Morrison's Action Superman. And of course Moore's Superman > Moore's Supreme > everything Morrison.

As for the ship, that already happened on Clutter Earth. In the Return to Krypton arc, they revealed how the Birthing Matrix was held within the classic original blue and red penis ship. Even though R2K was revealed to be imaginary, the original ship part was retained in like every Superman flashback retelling afterwards, as well as the subsequent official two origins. It was explained away as some sort of propulsion rocket encasement for the birthing matrix. I think Secret Origins and Action, did the original but with shapes and patterns of the orange-blue birthing matrix...to make it look less like a dong.

Part of my ambivalence towards Morrison's Action Superman origins probably has to do with an interview or something where he remarked how the T-shirt/Jeans look and Superman's embracing of S&S's champion of the middle-class/blue-collar/disenfranchised was supposed to evoke Bruce Springstein. I fucking hate Bruce Springstein. But I can never un-remember that association forever.

[The Shredder]

That may have been your perception, and it may have turned you off from picking up the book, but it was not what was said online by the majority of people that actually spoke about the series.

The majority of the people who actually bothered picking the book up in the first place, right? Yes, it was my perception, but given the book was getting critical praise (right?) and still had people staying away (right?), suggests that readers were being evasive from the series for reasons other than the pure content of the books. Which again, and as you said, was evidently receiving a positive response.

From those who decided to pick it up that is.

Judging by the sales, it wasn't very wise at all. It was cut from 12 to 8 issues.

Which goes back to the argument of timing. Who the character is plays a factor, but the longer you wait, in some respects, but not universally all respects, the impact of said return becomes less and less. Arguably, bringing back the New52Superman in a few months for a spinoff/mini is going to sell better now than it would 4 1/2 years from now.

And this is what I mean. The version of Superman matters so little, as long as the basics are there.

Landis creates a new version of Superman, and it does better than a version of Superman that had been around for decades.

But American Alien is just one example, because as I've pointed out, Lois & Clark is one of lowest selling Superman comics in 20 years.

It's not a failure because it didn't perform as well as some Superman comics, but because it performed worse than most Superman comics.

We're going around in circles now, but why would a Superman book, any Superman book on the current string of titles of the past 5 years, sell on the level of American Alien? Unless of course you have a writer/artist that fans just eat up, and to which their association to the book alone drives up sales. American Alien had that advantage from the word go. L&C didn't. As Dan Jurgens is clearly not going to get the same attention as a guy from Hollywood that has chosen to dip his toes into Superman. Nor is he on a Miller/Millar/Bendis/Morrison type of attention getting either. L&C's failure, as it clearly demonstrated from the amount of apathy it got on the sales charts atleast, was only mirroring what was going on during the then-current New52Superman books as well. It being initiated as a spin off during a period of stagnation in general, rather than say 2012 or even 2013 did it no favors as well. Timing/Perception.

When you're in a rut, you're in a rut. Bringing back a specific version of a character alone isn't going to somehow do wonders for your line when you still have the same careless people running the show. Modern readers are astute to that, even if they like a particular character more or less than another. It may matter to some, but something more drastic/attention getting would be assuredly required to get the train rolling again. Which appears to be the case, or atleast at the moment with Rebirth.

Because the announcement that Post-Crisis Superman was going to take over the main titles meant that Lois & Clark wasn't insignificant. It explained how he got to the new Universe and what he had been doing.

Exactly how many issues in was the announcement made? I recall it being atleast 4-5 issues in where the announcement was made public. Certainly not from the jump. Which may have affected sales to some extent, and perhaps not. It's not uncommon for a relaunch-type situation like Rebirth spending the time to explain to the reader information that is necessary for them without having to go back and read the last 3-4 months worth of titles. Which in all honesty, would be preferred, over forcing the reader to go back in order to get a grasp on the situation. Some may do that, some may not. I don't believe it's correct to say that reading L&C was vital reading material to understand jumping on board Superman Rebirth, or a absolutely necessary purchase. Actually, "Final Days" would be just as sufficient of a read, plus, as a bonus, Final Days was in the-then main line of books as well.

Even if we accept that people were going to hold out for Rebirth, it doesn't explain why people that were already buying and reading the book dropped it.

Given that like any other comic, issues #3-onward are going to sale less and less isn't anything unique. Especially in the time table of a line which was selling low in of itself. You've already stated people were enjoying it, and giving it critical praise, and it was still faltering. Again, not unique as sales isn't anything indicative of actual quality, but thinking Jurgens was somehow going to pull the nose up on the plane alone with L&C wasn't going to happen. Again, I don't mind Post-Crisis Superman, but I wasn't excited about the prospects either, and didn't bother searching for the series *until* I heard about plans for Rebirth. Did I find it to be the most vital jumping on point for Superman in recent memory? Not really. I probably could have waited till the Rebirth relaunch and been completely fine in grasping everything.

Convergence Speed Force did much better than Lois & Clark.

Convergence Speed Force did better than many issues of New 52 Flash, while Lois & Clark is one of the lowest selling Superman comics of the last 20 years.

Taking your word for it. Would you consider the Convergence books overall successful? I'm talking the main books along with all the minis.

If we're going to compare Convergence books to L&C, which is kinda unfair since one has the luxury of being apart of a event, where the other was just put out there prior to any announcement of Post-Crisis Superman taking over the flagship titles, exactly how did Convergence Superman sale in comparison to L&C?

More or less?

You did, but when you argue that the performance of the Superman books now indicate that the version of the character significantly matters, you are not taking those into account.

It's a factor for the enjoyment of the books, as readers most certainly have no problems continually voicing their preferences. Look around you. However, it's not THE defining factor/sticking point. Actually, I wish it was that easy. Marvel/DC probably do as well. Timing, hype, set up, talent on the books, all that are arguable factors as well. It's not a sole reason type of thing, otherwise Convergence Speedforce would have gone into numerous printings due to it's unique circumstances, but I do believe, considering the divisiveness of the fan base, that particular Superman incarnations matter to them. It's been an issue ever since the 1986 reboot. Consequently, it becomes a factor in them handing over their cash for the product as well.

To wrap this up, perhaps you're right, and what incarnation matters little to the majority of readers. Maybe it's just me not wanting to believe that due to conversations I've taken part in, and sometimes just eves dropped on, at LCS's and in the internet forums, about who "their" Superman is. Naturally coming to the conclusion that this plays into their wallet in staying on/off for a Superman line they feel passionate/apathetic towards.

Maybe alot of people buy just out of habit. I can't say I was exempt from that, as I was still occasionally picking up New52 Superman comics well after I decided I had had enough of the uninspired storytelling, and ceased picking each and every title on a regular basis. Which, to be perfectly honest, was pretty much what happened with me back in the late 1990's, until somewhere around 2005. Ultimately, if the main sticking point is a specific incarnation of a character can exclusively drive sales up or down, it's alot more than that. Does it matter to some, you bet. Preferences aside, I really cannot stress that any further. Set up means alot as well, and the set up for the shift in direction with Superman for Rebirth could have undoubtedly been executed better, but it is what it is. I'm sure Didio and company would say the same about the New52 in general dspite all the creative shake ups/firings/ect during those early months as well.

Not ideally executed, but successful nevertheless. The end result is the defining factor. If only for a little while and until the next shift.