The Eradicator's Plan Revealed, With Deadly Results In "Superman" #3

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

snip

Again you just ignored the parts of my post where I posted the sales data that backed up my point, and why when taking into other factors, the case is made that the version of the character doesn't matter that much.

Let's cut to the chase.

Do you actually have anything you can cite that backs up your statement that the version of the character significantly affects sales? Do you have anything you can cite that indicates the return of Post-Crisis Superman has led to a sales increase?

[The Shredder]

Again you just ignored the parts of my post where I posted the sales data that backed up my point, and why when taking into other factors, the case is made that the version of the character doesn't matter that much.

Ignored? We've been discussing sales/version of the character repetitively in pretty much every post we've made in this thread, yet somehow I'm ignoring your argument? I've been commenting/debating on it repetitively, even outright stating that I refer to you on the topic of pure sales, especially since you follow them, yet ... I'm ignoring your points? Okay. That's cool. It's kinda like repetitively typing out paragraphs of factors such as hype/set up/talent/ect being key/important factors in the eyes of fans for relaunches, not just the exclusivity of particular incarnations returning (hence the Convergence debate on not being anywhere near the level of Rebirth), yet I keep getting the "Hey! It doesn't matter which Superman it is. Sales don't reflect that! Can you back it up?"

Snip. & Let's indeed cut to the chase.

Get off the incarnation straw man argument, which alot of your quotes want to shift to, no matter now much I stubbornly argue against, and even made the point in my original post ("DC had to make the perception that a return mattered!" Did I not already state that? Or am I dreaming it up? Go ahead and look back. That right there flat out tells you it's more than just throwing out a incarnation like Wally and Post-Crisis Superman and expect a sales extravaganza. Comparing the hype for the return of Wally during convergence to his return in Rebirth is laughable. In terms of perception/impact.), and we'll get somewhere. There was a consistent outcry from fans for the return of Wally, yet Convergence Superman OUTSOLD it.

Now, let's get to the brass tacks, WHO exactly who was the character fans were always most vocal about bringing up as a sticking point for being excluded the New52 DCU?

Red haired Wally West, or Post-Crisis Superman?

Snip Cut to Rebirth.

Who's redux return was made a big deal by DC Comics and fans alike?

Red haired Wally West, or Post-Crisis Superman?

So once again, and this is pretty much the last time I'm going to debate it if I can't make this crystal clear, does a particular incarnation in itself preclude a sales bump? Solely. Just that character? No planning. No set up. No name talent. No hype. No thoughtful execution. Just throw that character out there and reap the rewards?

OR

Does the notion that a specific incarnation's return would also (and I can't stress this enough ALSO...) need the benefit of set up, hype, talent, direction to make it feel less like a Convergence "fill in" and more like something that actually will be relevant for the long haul?

See Titans Rebirth as opposed to Speedforce.

Why was that?

Probably because it was perceived (and rightly so) as being significant that time.

It mattered.

Oh, and if you want a link, sure, here's one for ya. It's a article from Newsarama that my original post in this thread addressed about perceptions/mattering, in this case the concerns and perception of that of Convergence. Which was perceived by some readers as essentially a "fill in" event, yup, I remember such words was said about it on these very forums, and thus resulting in the entire event being considered questionable by some readers in collecting/purchasing since it may not actually matter.

http://www.newsarama.com/22772-talki...cret-wars.html

Needless to say, that negative perception wasn't attached to Rebirth. Or the New52.

Was it with Convergence? Evidently.

L&C? I would say so. Absolutely.

Considering since word didn't get out about that incarnation headlining the Superman books until it was well into the series storyline already, as opposed to an announcement prior to L&C #1. Which would have made a WHOLE LOT MORE SENSE, business wise, if you want to make a impact right out of the gate.
How that would have affected sales is debatable, but it couldn't have hurt. Especially as opposed to making such an announcement right in the middle of the series, and somehow expecting a dramatic sales bump when they (And by they I mean the fans) already know a relaunch that matters is just on the horizon.

Does any of my statements bear any weight, or does it still come across like I've been saying that specific incarnations alone can and will cause noticeable sales increases? That they hold that kind of power with the readership.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

So are we in agreement that the majority of readers don't care whether they are reading New 52 Superman or Post-Crisis Superman?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Oh, and if you want a link, sure, here's one for ya. It's a article from Newsarama that my original post in this thread addressed about perceptions/mattering, in this case the concerns and perception of that of Convergence. Which was perceived by some readers as essentially a "fill in" event, yup, I remember such words was said about it on these very forums, and thus resulting in the entire event being considered questionable by some readers in collecting/purchasing since it may not actually matter.

http://www.newsarama.com/22772-talki...cret-wars.html

That's not what I asked for.

I specifically asked for reactions to the announcement of Lois & Clark series.

[The Shredder]

So are we in agreement that the majority of readers don't care whether they are reading New 52 Superman or Post-Crisis Superman?

Tell you what, if we want to say that, sure. The majority don't care, and have no investment in any particular version/era/arc/origin. Thus, any direction initiated that has continuity as a major factor going forward is a true creative/business oddity.

That's not what I asked for.

I specifically asked for reactions to the announcement of Lois & Clark series.

I guess pulling up fan reactions from forums are supposed to be indicative that there was tons of interest leading to big sales, right? Funny request, considering ....

This the problem with going by internet chatter alone or going with small sample size. The likes and dislikes of forum posters or some people at your local comic shop don't dictate actual hype, or how well a comic is going to do.

So why am I going to waste time searching and posting links to your very specific request, when you've already specifically disqualified that argument? To feed your narrative?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Tell you what, if we want to say that, sure. The majority don't care, and have no investment in any particular version/era/arc/origin. Thus, any direction initiated that has continuity as a major factor going forward is a true creative/business oddity.

So that's a yes?

My case was that the version doesn't really matter, and apparently you agree.

Then what was the point of all this?

I guess pulling up fan reactions from forums are supposed to be indicative that there was tons of interest leading to big sales, right? Funny request, considering ....

Actually no, as I pointed out in a post, if forum chatter was going to be indicative of sales, Lois & Clark was going to be a big seller.

It was right above what you quoted me saying.

So why am I going to waste time searching and posting links to your very specific request, when you've already specifically disqualified that argument? To feed your narrative?

So that there's at least some basis to the claims you're making, so that I know what you're saying occurred, actually occurred. So that I can take it into consideration.

You said people reacted to and perceived Lois & Clark in a certain way. So let's see people reacting to and perceiving Lois & Clark in a certain way.

[The Shredder]

So that's a yes?

My case was that the version doesn't really matter, and apparently you agree.

Then what was the point of all this?

Yup. If that's what you got out of that. Sure. You bet.

Just wasting time, evidently.

Actually no, as I pointed out in a post, if forum chatter was going to be indicative of sales, Lois & Clark was going to be a big seller.

It was right above what you quoted me saying.

Curious, considering by your mindset, positive or negative forum chatter is too small of a sample, and ultimately means zilch.

Correct?

So that there's at least some basis to the claims you're making, so that I know what you're saying occurred, actually occurred. So that I can take it into consideration.

You said people reacted to and perceived Lois & Clark in a certain way. So let's see people reacting to and perceiving Lois & Clark in a certain way.

Not to belay the obvious, but my statements of reaction/perception pretty much goes hand and hand with what actually occurred with Convergence. The notion of something not as high profile like L&C (or was this as hyped as New52/Rebirth?) suffering the same fate is somehow incomprehensible is amusing, but hey, If we're going by disqualified forum chatter that's a small sample of the fan base, can we also see a certain way where an announcement of a switch in Supermen/continuity occurred and on the forum threads, positivity was universal, and no heated contention occurred? Yeah, self serving requests are fun.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Yup. If that's what you got out of that. Sure. You bet.

Just wasting time, evidently.

Let's make this absolutely clear. Answer wither either yes or no.

Do you agree that the version of the character does not significantly affect sales?

Curious, considering by your mindset, positive or negative forum chatter is too small of a sample, and ultimately means zilch.

Correct?

No.

Forum chatter and small sample sizes (which is not exclusive to online) alone don't mean anything. They can play a part when you factor everything in.

My point is that excitement for a book online or from a couple of people you know personally, doesn't guarantee success. It's not enough on its own to mean anything.

Not to belay the obvious, but my statements of reaction/perception pretty much goes hand and hand with what actually occurred with Convergence.

I already pointed out that several Convergence minis did well, including the Superman mini. I also pointed out that several of the Convergence minis outsold the last New 52 issues that had come out for the same series.

The notion of something not as high profile like L&C (or was this as hyped as New52/Rebirth?) suffering the same fate is somehow incomprehensible is amusing, but hey, If we're going by disqualified forum chatter that's a small sample of the fan base, can we also see a certain way where an announcement of a switch in Supermen/continuity occurred and on the forum threads, positivity was universal, and no heated contention occurred? Yeah, self serving requests are fun.

You said people perceived Lois & Clark in a certain way when it was announcement.

Can you provide evidence for this or not?

A yes or no will do.

[darkseidpwns]

Why is Convergence Speed Force even being compared to Lois and Clark? why not compare it to Convergence Superman? some serious strawman ship on this tread by a certain poster.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Why is Convergence Speed Force even being compared to Lois and Clark? why not compare it to Convergence Superman? some serious strawman ship on this tread by a certain poster.

Because someone else bought up Convergence Speed Force in relation to Lois & Clark.

I've already stated several times that Convergence Superman did well.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

By the way, I should clarify something I said earlier.

I mentioned that Convergence Superman didn't do as well as the main Superman book, which is true of the series but not issue #1. While issue #2 was selling several thousand less than the main preceding Superman issue issue #1 only sold a few hundred less.

So it did fine, which is why I you don't see me calling that mini a failure.