View Poll Results: Wonder Woman should be stronger than superman?

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  • Yes

    14 11.29%
  • No

    56 45.16%
  • Equal

    54 43.55%
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I remember Karate Kid kickin' Superboy's butt when he joined the Legion, but I don't recall him training Superboy. Fighting alongside someone doesn't give you their skills; otherwise, everyone in the League would be as good as Batman

    What issue of Legion did this happen in?

    But assume for a moment that he did; that in the relatively small amount of time Superboy spent in the future, he spent an even relatively smaller amount of time training with Karate Kid.

    Diana was raised from an infant on an island full of warriors and trained every day of her life since she could walk. Batman spent years dedicating his every waking moment to training with the best martial artists of the world.

    Bit of a difference I think.
    Maybe we are talking about the Superman who can read a medical textbook and instantly become an expert brain surgeon (rolls eyes)
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  2. #77
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I remember Karate Kid kickin' Superboy's butt when he joined the Legion, but I don't recall him training Superboy. Fighting alongside someone doesn't give you their skills; otherwise, everyone in the League would be as good as Batman

    What issue of Legion did this happen in?

    But assume for a moment that he did; that in the relatively small amount of time Superboy spent in the future, he spent an even relatively smaller amount of time training with Karate Kid.

    Diana was raised from an infant on an island full of warriors and trained every day of her life since she could walk. Batman spent years dedicating his every waking moment to training with the best martial artists of the world.

    Bit of a difference I think.
    I don't know if they were ever portrayed as in actual training sessions, but being allies and fighting together it stands to reason he learned a lot from him. I'll have to ask around and see if there's any examples on panel of them actually sparring. Not to mention all his other adventures in his storied career as Superboy which rather demands he learns how to fight. He can't always get by on just power alone, its always been that way. I know people think that stuff is hokey, but its a key part of his character. If they want to throw away the idea that he actually called himself "Superboy" and wore a smaller version of his adult costume, fine. But keep the adventures. There's no reason anymore his history needs to be truncated. Morrison left that door purposely open so its time to confirm it. But I digress, again I agree, there is a difference there that would make Diana still the better warrior My argument isn't to suggest otherwise, I prefer it that she's the better hand-to-hand fighter. My only point is that Superman does have fighting skills beyond being rough and tumble. That without powers he could fight against Bruce, or on an equal playing field he could at least belong in the same squared circle as Diana. That's all. That he's helpless without his powers is a fallacy purported by years of poor writing and nearly two decades of a bad origin story that wiped all his early adventures and the experiences he gained therein off the map.

    He's more powerful but she's still pretty damn powerful herself.
    She's a better fighter but he's still a pretty damn good fighter himself.

    That's how, imo, it should be. The idea that he'd be a stain on the pavement if they both were without powers and got into a fight? I call extreme bullcrap there. He'd probably lose, but it'd be a fight.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-30-2016 at 10:30 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't know if they were ever portrayed as in actual training sessions, but being allies and fighting together it stands to reason he learned a lot from him. I'll have to ask around and see if there's any examples on panel of them actually sparring. Not to mention all his other adventures in his storied career as Superboy which rather demands he learns how to fight. He can't always get by on just power alone, its always been that way. I know people think that stuff is hokey, but its a key part of his character. If they want to throw away the idea that he actually called himself "Superboy" and wore a smaller version of his adult costume, fine. But keep the adventures. There's no reason anymore his history needs to be truncated. Morrison left that door purposely open so its time to confirm it. But I digress, again I agree, there is a difference there that would make Diana still the better warrior My argument isn't to suggest otherwise, I prefer it that she's the better hand-to-hand fighter. My only point is that Superman does have fighting skills beyond being rough and tumble. That without powers he could fight against Bruce, or on an equal playing field he could at least belong in the same squared circle as Diana. That's all. That he's helpless without his powers is a fallacy purported by years of poor writing and nearly two decades of a bad origin story that wiped all his early adventures and the experiences he gained therein off the map.

    He's more powerful but she's still pretty damn powerful herself.
    She's a better fighter but he's still a pretty damn good fighter himself.

    That's how, imo, it should be. The idea that he'd be a stain on the pavement if they both were without powers and got into a fight? I call extreme bullcrap there. He'd probably lose, but it'd be a fight.
    I don't believe Clark would give much of a fight to Nightwing, let alone Batman. And without his powers my opinion is that Black Canary and Huntress could each of them smack him silly.
    Last edited by brettc1; 07-30-2016 at 10:37 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  4. #79
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Maybe when people who don't know what they're doing are writing him. If his history matters, which again is for the time being rhetorical because I don't know if they're going to redact a bunch of stuff again since he has no solid history with the version change, but with virtually any other history other than the strip-mined Byrne platform, the guy could be a reporter by day an MMA fighter by night if he really wanted to be. He's more than his powers. He has natural and learned skill and ability. You're free to not like the character as much as you want but that's simply written fact.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-31-2016 at 12:44 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That's to have a basic misunderstanding of the character then. Not unheard of even within DC's offices, but a woeful misrepresentation all the same.
    Sure. He's a super-intelligent god who, if written properly, only needs the rest of the Justice League if someone pulls out a piece of Kryptonite or a magic wand. A man who can do anything expertly just by reading about it or watching someone else do it. Basically a walking combination of Hulk, Flash, Reed Richards, and the Taskmaster.

    I'm not kidding. In the 1940s and 50s that's literally how he was written. He could SNEEZE planets out of orbit. Meanwhile Wonder Woman was shown being able to lasso and drag around the SUN. Neither is written like that now, and it's not just because of physics.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I know how all the power levels were at ridiculous levels in those days. And its entirely irrelevant to my point. I'm advocating reincorporating all his history, but just like any other lore would naturally be adapted to more "normal" sensibilities of today's superhero fiction. But all the same it would allow that experience. Which in the end is all I'm saying. That he's a competent fighter, that he has natural and learned skill, with or without powers. The powers are what put him over the top, without them he'd just be a highly athletic normal guy, but skilled nonetheless.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-31-2016 at 12:53 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Pretty much. If you have a problem with that I guess you could take it to the guys who wrote them, if only they were still alive. And the fans of the day whom absolutely adored it.
    My only problem would be off they still wrote stories like that now, in a shared universe where Every other hero from Wonder Woman and Batman on down needs a reason to exist besides just being a sidekick or a damsel in distress.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    They don't. I'm not suggesting they should. I edited in more stuff too late, but, to say it again, keeping most of a character's history and lore canon isn't to keep everything verbatim. Of course things have to be adapted to the levels of today or what have you. You dial the super-sneezing away solar systems and you still have a guy who fits the mold of the basic point I'm trying to make. A guy who does indeed know fighting as an art. That's all I'm saying.

    Everyone needs their reason to exist in the shared verse but its NEVER going to be perfect. It can't be. So it can't be worried about to such a degree where you take your powerhouse characters and depower them for the sake of others. That includes Wonder Woman. You just understand as a reader that some things you need to let go. Why doesn't Batman call in Superman or Wonder Woman all the time? Because its his stories, not theirs. Its just a necessary suspension of disbelief, or else some characters suffer.

    Which I suppose in the end is the rub for discussions like these; in the end they're fairly irrelevant because it will probably never come up. Or if they do the answers change depending on the aim. And sorry about the constant edits; I have a tendency to hit send while I'm still thinking. I never wait, lol
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-31-2016 at 01:03 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  9. #84
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    superman is no slouch when it comes to fighting skills. He defeated kobra when he was in batmans body while he was stuck in kobras. he also disabled kryptonite batman using knowledge of pressure points. he has also trained under mongul but usually he gets his ass handed to him by batman which is funny because wonder woman has always taken him out and also made fun of him by referring to him as a, fragile mortal.

  10. #85
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    Equal.

    There are already numerous characters that supposedly match Superman in terms of physical strength: Martian Manhunter (Green Superman), Shazam (Magic Superman), Icon (Black Superman), Apollo (Gay Superman), etc. Why should all of these male characters be afforded such power, when Wonder Woman, a character that predates them all by decades, is not? Their strength in no way diminishes Superman, so why should Wonder Woman's?

  11. #86
    Spectacular Member rayray1127's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEMINUS1 View Post
    Equal.

    There are already numerous characters that supposedly match Superman in terms of physical strength: Martian Manhunter (Green Superman), Shazam (Magic Superman), Icon (Black Superman), Apollo (Gay Superman), etc. Why should all of these male characters be afforded such power, when Wonder Woman, a character that predates them all by decades, is not? Their strength in no way diminishes Superman, so why should Wonder Woman's?
    You make an excellent point! Making Diana his equal in no way takes anything from Superman.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayray1127 View Post
    You make an excellent point! Making Diana his equal in no way takes anything from Superman.
    No, but it does in fact take something away from Wonder Woman to my mind.

    Clark may have been trained by Mongul, but certainly not for decades. Plus I wouldn't peg Mongul as a better hand to hand combatant than Dian anyway.

    Clark can obviously fight, but so can Indianna Jones, which is the combat level I see Clark at without his powers. Impressive against grunts and mid level trained opponents like Nazi Seargents, but clearly not at Ninja or Amazon level.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEMINUS1 View Post
    Equal.

    There are already numerous characters that supposedly match Superman in terms of physical strength: Martian Manhunter (Green Superman), Shazam (Magic Superman), Icon (Black Superman), Apollo (Gay Superman), etc. Why should all of these male characters be afforded such power, when Wonder Woman, a character that predates them all by decades, is not? Their strength in no way diminishes Superman, so why should Wonder Woman's?
    I second and third and fourth and it goes on and on..... this post

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    At a minimum, equal. Going by the intent of the design, Stronger than. Her original name was 'Suprema, the Wonder Woman'.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEMINUS1 View Post
    Equal.

    There are already numerous characters that supposedly match Superman in terms of physical strength: Martian Manhunter (Green Superman), Shazam (Magic Superman), Icon (Black Superman), Apollo (Gay Superman), etc. Why should all of these male characters be afforded such power, when Wonder Woman, a character that predates them all by decades, is not? Their strength in no way diminishes Superman, so why should Wonder Woman's?
    Their strength doesn't take away from Superman for exactly one reason: outside of their own fanbases, they are all largely thought of as Copies of Superman who pale next to the original.

    Martian Manhunter's similarities to Superman is the main reason he will never get a show of his own and is relegated to Supergirl's mentor in live-action.

    Shazam's similarities to Superman is the main reason he was banned from existence in the 1950s and then lost his own name "Captain Marvel" to Marvel.

    Icon's similarities to Superman ensure that he has no stable place in the DCU and needs the Milestone universe to be its own thing to thrive.

    Apollo's similarities to Superman ensure that he has no stable place in the DCU and needs the Wildstorm universe to be its own thing to thrive.

    Also, Shazam/Captain Marvel, Icon and Apollo were afforded such power because they originally WERE the Superman of their respective native universes (Fawcett, Milestone, Wildstorm), whereas Wonder Woman never had that status in hers (DC). Each of their statuses have been diminished since entering the DCU proper.

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