Wonder Woman should be stronger than Superman?

[Agent Z]

Shazam's getting his own movie so that shows that similarities to Superman aren't an issue for him. Martisn Nanhunter not getting his own show is more of fear of taking risks with characters that aren't Batman or Superman. And according to Johns, Diana in the DCEU has strength to match Superman and she's been well received this far.

[daBronzeBomma]

Shazam's getting his own movie so that shows that similarities to Superman aren't an issue for him.

No, Shazam's getting his own movie because proven box office draw and big-time actor Dwayne Johnson, a huge fan of Black Adam, signed on crazy-early to bring in the bucks.

Martisn Nanhunter not getting his own show is more of fear of taking risks with characters that aren't Batman or Superman.

Funny how DCE is not afraid of taking risks with Cyborg, Aquaman and the Flash (none of whom are Superman or Batman, and whose movies lack proven starpower).

And according to Johns, Diana in the DCEU has strength to match Superman and she's been well received this far.

Well received, yes. "Strength to match Superman" is yet to be seen, especially without weapons. Just words at this point.

[Tayswift]

the problem of shazam and apollo is that Superman is the biggest hero and they have to live in his shadow.

[Jon Clark]

Because he had adventures with the Legion as a boy and trained and fought with an ally by the name of Val Armorr, aka the Karate Kid, whom in the 31st century is the greatest martial artist of all time.

Nobody these days expects him to be able to fight Bruce Wayne while powerless because DC has done such a good job over the years castrating his history and his experiences in the name of "grounding" him.

I don't know. To me there is a level of drive and determination that Bruce has that Superman lacks when it comes to training. If Joe Average throws a punch at Bruce and he doesn't block it Bruce feels pain. If Joe Average does the same to Clark, there is no pain. So Clark doesn't need to learn to block the punch as effectively. So while Superman might have an understanding of the moves needed in combat the only times he really has to worry how well he applies them is when he is either powerless or when he meets someone with similar power levels to himself that is a more effective fighter.

Diana on the other hand was raised in an environment where she would have had people around her that wouldn't let her fall back on her abilities. Whether it was her "sisters" who lived to perfect their skills and would have stressed the form over the effect (Diana, your shoulder was a hair too low. That block might have stopped Mala but if you were facing Hercules he would have forced your arm aside. Or the mythological opponents she faced. Diana would have been pushed to perform martial maneuvers accurately despite the fact she physically outclassed her opponents.

[GEMINUS1]

Their strength doesn't take away from Superman for exactly one reason: outside of their own fanbases, they are all largely thought of as Copies of Superman who pale next to the original.

Martian Manhunter's similarities to Superman is the main reason he will never get a show of his own and is relegated to Supergirl's mentor in live-action.

Shazam's similarities to Superman is the main reason he was banned from existence in the 1950s and then lost his own name "Captain Marvel" to Marvel.

Icon's similarities to Superman ensure that he has no stable place in the DCU and needs the Milestone universe to be its own thing to thrive.

Apollo's similarities to Superman ensure that he has no stable place in the DCU and needs the Wildstorm universe to be its own thing to thrive.

Also, Shazam/Captain Marvel, Icon and Apollo were afforded such power because they originally WERE the Superman of their respective native universes (Fawcett, Milestone, Wildstorm), whereas Wonder Woman never had that status in hers (DC). Each of their statuses have been diminished since entering the DCU proper.

Fair point about each of those characters once ruling their own respective universe. However, Wonder Woman did not debut in DC. She started in All-American Publications, a company that would one day merge with Detective Comics (home of Superman and Batman) to become DC. Furthermore, Wonder Woman was afforded such power under Marston. She may not have been bulletproof, but she towed the sun itself. It may have been ludicrous, but she did it. The same way Superman has performed similarly ridiculous feats.

The rest of your post outlines a much more problematic issue: the idea that all other characters must be sacrificed or dismissed in service of Superman (and Batman). Other characters shouldn't have to be made weaker or marginalized for Superman to be relevant. The same way that characters shouldn't have their IQ's halved to make Batman look smart. Its just lazy storytelling.

[Stanlos]

the problem of shazam and apollo is that Superman is the biggest hero and they have to live in his shadow.

On Captain Marvel (I refuse to refer to him as freaking SHAZAM) I just hate how the Post Crisis Justice League reboot take has just taken over the character. He is NOT a kid in a grown person's body as Captain Marvel. I hope the movie goes more classic than current.

[Stanlos]

Fair point about each of those characters once ruling their own respective universe. However, Wonder Woman did not debut in DC. She started in All-American Publications, a company that would one day merge with Detective Comics (home of Superman and Batman) to become DC. Furthermore, Wonder Woman was afforded such power under Marston. She may not have been bulletproof, but she towed the sun itself. It may have been ludicrous, but she did it. The same way Superman has performed similarly ridiculous feats.

The rest of your post outlines a much more problematic issue: the idea that all other characters must be sacrificed or dismissed in service of Superman (and Batman). Other characters shouldn't have to be made weaker or marginalized for Superman to be relevant. The same way that characters shouldn't have their IQ's halved to make Batman look smart. Its just lazy storytelling.

Quoted for TRUTH.

[brettc1]

Fair point about each of those characters once ruling their own respective universe. However, Wonder Woman did not debut in DC. She started in All-American Publications, a company that would one day merge with Detective Comics (home of Superman and Batman) to become DC. Furthermore, Wonder Woman was afforded such power under Marston. She may not have been bulletproof, but she towed the sun itself. It may have been ludicrous, but she did it. The same way Superman has performed similarly ridiculous feats.

The rest of your post outlines a much more problematic issue: the idea that all other characters must be sacrificed or dismissed in service of Superman (and Batman). Other characters shouldn't have to be made weaker or marginalized for Superman to be relevant. The same way that characters shouldn't have their IQ's halved to make Batman look smart. Its just lazy storytelling.

Realistically I think many of the Justice League characters were dialed back when they became a team. The stand out exception being Batman, who only seemed to grown in stature to the point where he can take out the rest of the team by himself :P

I would be interested in hearing the argument from anybody who posted that she should be stronger. I can think of reasons to argue the other two options, but not many for her eclipsing him in strength.

[daBronzeBomma]

Fair point about each of those characters once ruling their own respective universe. However, Wonder Woman did not debut in DC. She started in All-American Publications, a company that would one day merge with Detective Comics (home of Superman and Batman) to become DC. Furthermore, Wonder Woman was afforded such power under Marston. She may not have been bulletproof, but she towed the sun itself. It may have been ludicrous, but she did it. The same way Superman has performed similarly ridiculous feats.

Interesting point there about Wonder Woman possibly being the Superman of All-American Comics.

My understanding was that Superman and Batman were created under National Comics, while Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern were under All-American Comics in the early Golden Age, and then All-American Comics was merged into National Comics to become DC Comics. I wonder who had better feats for All-American: Golden Age Diana or Golden Age Alan Scott?

And if that is the case (WW being the Superman of A-A), then the same pattern holds: any "Superman"-type character of another universe immediately loses status upon being integrated into Superman's universe. So, All-American's Wonder Woman suffered the same fate that would later befall Fawcett's Captain Marvel, Milestone's Icon and Wildstorm's Apollo. The only way for any of them to get their superman-status back is to be based on a different Earth that has no real Superman.

The rest of your post outlines a much more problematic issue: the idea that all other characters must be sacrificed or dismissed in service of Superman (and Batman). Other characters shouldn't have to be made weaker or marginalized for Superman to be relevant. The same way that characters shouldn't have their IQ's halved to make Batman look smart. Its just lazy storytelling.

I'll take it from the other angle: Superman should not have to be made weaker or marginalized for Wonder Woman and others to be relevant. That's lazy writing. Especially since all of them, Wonder Woman included, came to his universe, not the other way around.

DC is The House That Superman Built and and The House That Batman Furnishes.

[Tayswift]

Interesting point there about Wonder Woman possibly being the Superman of All-American Comics.

My understanding was that Superman and Batman were created under National Comics, while Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern were under All-American Comics in the early Golden Age, and then All-American Comics was merged into National Comics to become DC Comics. I wonder who had better feats for All-American: Golden Age Diana or Golden Age Alan Scott?

And if that is the case (WW being the Superman of A-A), then the same pattern holds: any "Superman"-type character of another universe immediately loses status upon being integrated into Superman's universe. So, All-American's Wonder Woman suffered the same fate that would later befall Fawcett's Captain Marvel, Milestone's Icon and Wildstorm's Apollo. The only way for any of them to get their superman-status back is to be based on a different Earth that has no real Superman.





I'll take it from the other angle: Superman should not have to be made weaker or marginalized for Wonder Woman and others to be relevant. That's lazy writing. Especially since all of them, Wonder Woman included, came to his universe, not the other way around.

DC is The House That Superman Built and and The House That Batman Furnishes.

wonder woman didn't entered superman world, both comcis companies merged.

they being equal don't take nothing from superman

[Vanguard-01]

I'll take it from the other angle: Superman should not have to be made weaker or marginalized for Wonder Woman and others to be relevant. That's lazy writing. Especially since all of them, Wonder Woman included, came to his universe, not the other way around.

DC is The House That Superman Built and and The House That Batman Furnishes.

Ohhhh....I get it. So Diana must forever remain Superman's inferior as a sign of submission to her conqueror? Yeah, nothing could be more antithetical to Diana's character, so I don't see this idea gaining a lot of acceptance around here.

How about NO characters should be made weaker or marginalized for ANY other characters benefit? That's equally lazy writing regardless of who bought out who decades ago.

[dianafan1985]

Ohhhh....I get it. So Diana must forever remain Superman's inferior as a sign of submission to her conqueror? Yeah, nothing could be more antithetical to Diana's character, so I don't see this idea gaining a lot of acceptance around here.

How about NO characters should be made weaker or marginalized for ANY other characters benefit? That's equally lazy writing regardless of who bought out who decades ago.

I fully agree with this comment.

[Lex Luthor]

Interesting point there about Wonder Woman possibly being the Superman of All-American Comics.

My understanding was that Superman and Batman were created under National Comics, while Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern were under All-American Comics in the early Golden Age, and then All-American Comics was merged into National Comics to become DC Comics. I wonder who had better feats for All-American: Golden Age Diana or Golden Age Alan Scott?

And if that is the case (WW being the Superman of A-A), then the same pattern holds: any "Superman"-type character of another universe immediately loses status upon being integrated into Superman's universe. So, All-American's Wonder Woman suffered the same fate that would later befall Fawcett's Captain Marvel, Milestone's Icon and Wildstorm's Apollo. The only way for any of them to get their superman-status back is to be based on a different Earth that has no real Superman.





I'll take it from the other angle: Superman should not have to be made weaker or marginalized for Wonder Woman and others to be relevant. That's lazy writing. Especially since all of them, Wonder Woman included, came to his universe, not the other way around.

DC is The House That Superman Built and and The House That Batman Furnishes.

I'm genuinely curious as to when superman has ever been marginalized to up Diana's status

[GEMINUS1]

Interesting point there about Wonder Woman possibly being the Superman of All-American Comics.

My understanding was that Superman and Batman were created under National Comics, while Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern were under All-American Comics in the early Golden Age, and then All-American Comics was merged into National Comics to become DC Comics. I wonder who had better feats for All-American: Golden Age Diana or Golden Age Alan Scott?

And if that is the case (WW being the Superman of A-A), then the same pattern holds: any "Superman"-type character of another universe immediately loses status upon being integrated into Superman's universe. So, All-American's Wonder Woman suffered the same fate that would later befall Fawcett's Captain Marvel, Milestone's Icon and Wildstorm's Apollo. The only way for any of them to get their superman-status back is to be based on a different Earth that has no real Superman.





I'll take it from the other angle: Superman should not have to be made weaker or marginalized for Wonder Woman and others to be relevant. That's lazy writing. Especially since all of them, Wonder Woman included, came to his universe, not the other way around.

DC is The House That Superman Built and and The House That Batman Furnishes.

I don't deny there is a pattern. I just find that pattern fundamentally wrong. Equality diminishes no one. I know it is always dangerous to bring the Marvel Cinematic Universe into the conversation, but I will. Tony Stark is made no less intelligent because he shares space with Bruce Banner. In fact I and many others find their relationship charming. I also immensely enjoyed Captain America: Civil War, in part because it showed Black Panther, Captain America, and the Winter Soldier on relatively even footing. All three were strong, fast, and skilled. Their relative equality added an extra layer of tension to their fight scenes because it wasn't a forgone conclusion who would win. That kind of storycraft takes far more effort and thought than any plotline that relies on the unmatched strength (or intelligence) of one. Making an individual look awesome is easy; making a cast of awesome characters of similar stature? That takes work.

I do not deny the importance of Superman and Batman to DC or comic in general; however I 100% reject the notion that DC somehow "belongs" to these two. DC's house would be a shiny, well furnished hut if not for the presence of Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash, etc. Superman and Batman cater to some audiences; Wonder Woman, Shazam, Apollo, etc. cater to others. DC would be a shell of itself if it only had those two to rely on. Nor am I willing to assign additional points to Batman and Superman because of their supposed originality. Before Superman there was Hercules and Samson; before Batman there was Sherlock Holmes. Superman and Batman deserve kudos for their place in history, but they, nor do any other characters, deserve an untouchable pedestal.

[dianafan1985]

I don't deny there is a pattern. I just find that pattern fundamentally wrong. Equality diminishes no one. I know it is always dangerous to bring the Marvel Cinematic Universe into the conversation, but I will. Tony Stark is made no less intelligent because he shares space with Bruce Banner. In fact I and many others find their relationship charming. I also immensely enjoyed Captain America: Civil War, in part because it showed Black Panther, Captain America, and the Winter Soldier on relatively even footing. All three were strong, fast, and skilled. Their relative equality added an extra layer of tension to their fight scenes because it wasn't a forgone conclusion who would win. That kind of storycraft takes far more effort and thought than any plotline that relies on the unmatched strength (or intelligence) of one. Making an individual look awesome is easy; making a cast of awesome characters of similar stature? That takes work.

I do not deny the importance of Superman and Batman to DC or comic in general; however I 100% reject the notion that DC somehow "belongs" to these two. DC's house would be a shiny, well furnished hut if not for the presence of Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash, etc. Superman and Batman cater to some audiences; Wonder Woman, Shazam, Apollo, etc. cater to others. DC would be a shell of itself if it only had those two to rely on. Nor am I willing to assign additional points to Batman and Superman because of their supposed originality. Before Superman there was Hercules and Samson; before Batman there was Sherlock Holmes. Superman and Batman deserve kudos for their place in history, but they, nor do any other characters, deserve an untouchable pedestal.

Wow; I love your Tony Stark comparison. It does bring your point across vividly.