Major possible Tim Drake SPOILERS

[MajorHoy]

. . . So at best they would probably would give us some compromised imitation of Tim going back to his roots. Like putting him back his Robin costume but with an extra 'R' on it . . .

You mean like how he's been in Detective Comics since Rebirth started?

[Atlanta96]

How do they bring Tim back to his roots though, they're not gonna make him go back to being Robin. That genie is already out of the bottle. So at best they would probably would give us some compromised imitation of Tim going back to his roots. Like putting him back his Robin costume but with an extra 'R' on it. But even if they do that it still doesn't solve the problems of Red Robin not having any real relevance, and not really bringing something different to the table.

He's the focal point of a whole generation of heroes that includes Stephanie Brown, Cass Cain, Kon El, Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark. None of those characters have a larger role or more established relationships than Tim. As long as those heroes are in use Tim is relevant. And we all know DC has some kind of a plan for the YJ4 characters in the future, so that will guarantee his relevance along with his relationships in the Bat-books. Yeah his character needs a new direction but that can be easily fixed.

[Godlike13]

Well thats what they bet on with him with the New 52. They made him the leader and founder of TTs, surrounded him with the YJ4 characters, and thought that would keep him relevant. But it didn't, instead the Teen Titans just became irrelevant with Tim, and that whole Young Justice line pretty much crashed and burned. Tim is not really evolving with the times anymore. The Red Robin persona never really seemed like a true modern evolution of his character, he pretty much did the same things he always did, and it was never really given much agency in the DC universe. Tim as a character is pretty much just around because of what he did in the days of yesteryear, or at least thats what it seems like. Going back to his "roots" sounds nice, but is them trying to make him what he was when he can't be what he was really going to help him?

[Lhynn]

Well thats what they bet on with him with the New 52. They made him the leader and founder of TTs, surrounded him with the YJ4 characters, and thought that would keep him relevant. But it didn't, instead the Teen Titans just became irrelevant with Tim, and that whole Young Justice line pretty much crashed and burned. Tim is not really evolving with the times anymore. The Red Robin persona never really seemed like a true modern evolution of his character, he pretty much did the same things he always did, and it was never really given much agency in the DC universe. Tim as a character is pretty much just around because of what he did in the days of yesteryear, or at least thats what it seems like. Going back to his "roots" sounds nice, but is them trying to make him what he was when he can't be what he was really going to help him?

The problem wasnt Tim. The problem was that this wasnt Tim.
Tim Drake was his upbringing and his development. You bring both those things back, you bring Tim back.

[godisawesome]

Well thats what they bet on with him with the New 52. They made him the leader and founder of TTs, surrounded him with the YJ4 characters, and thought that would keep him relevant. But it didn't, instead the Teen Titans just became irrelevant with Tim, and that whole Young Justice line pretty much crashed and burned. Tim is not really evolving with the times anymore. The Red Robin persona never really seemed like a true modern evolution of his character, he pretty much did the same things he always did, and it was never really given much agency in the DC universe. Tim as a character is pretty much just around because of what he did in the days of yesteryear, or at least thats what it seems like. Going back to his "roots" sounds nice, but is them trying to make him what he was when he can't be what he was really going to help him?

I'd disagree vehemently with this assessment; Yost and Nicieza were making Tim a new variation of the "Journeyman"-vigilante template, one that diverged from Dick Grayson's previous path (since Dick had finally been acknowledged as a master level vigilante) and contrasted with Jason's. He was given long term goals to pursue, ones that often required spanning the globe both in person and in influence through his friends, family, henchmen, and Neon Knights Initiative. His M.O. was changing from a reactive one to a proactive one; all that criticism people had of Cry for Justice and other stories in the same vein was being addressed in Red Robin. Tim wasn't seeking to kill villains (save Boomerang, and I'll get back to that in a second) or somehow get a fascistic vigilante style going but he was manipulating them in multi-layered long cons and dominoe-style strategems that flowed from one to another. He was being tailored to fit a world with Batman Inc, but fully capable of maintaining his own variation on the idea if it fell off.

And Tim was really becoming the strategic commander perfectly willing to neutralize targets through proxies and play dirty ball; Nicieza set up two dirty cops that Tim flipped over by blackmailing via an intermediary in Jason Bard, Yost had Tim coordinate the Batfamily and Lucius Fox to defeat Ra's Al Ghul's move on Wayne Enterprises, the entirety of the Hit List arc was to show Tim drawing out various enemies to take them out before they could get out of hand, his conflict with Mikalek's was all about espionage and he was willing to seek out allies like Promise even knowing her lethal tactics. And with all that, you had him trying to create a new normal life, wherein he still maintained contact with Ives, sought a permanent base in Gotham, protected his civilian life by faking an injury, and had a complicated interaction with both Lonnie Machin and Tam Fox. And at the same time he was struggling with character flaws in the form of his infatuation with manipulations; he damaged his relationship with Tam just to make sure his ruse worked, entertained a compromised cooperation with Lynx because she might prove a true ally in the long game, and came very close to killing Boomerang with the press of a button.

And to the rest of your post, I think there is a chance to put Tim back into a similar position, though your right in that their New 52 ate to failed. I think it's save to say they tried to hammer Tim into Nightwing's place and characterization in the Teen Titans, and that did the character no favors. To me the key is to make it clear his Rebirth story (now highlighted by Oz's involvement) is on a similar "true past revealed" trajectory as Wally's; make it clear that Tim was a Robin first, then upgraded to Red Robin later, and that his past roughly aligned with the Pre-Flashpoint version. Unlike Wally, there's no big impediment to this like DC's push for Barry to be a young-ish Flash. We may get an answer on whether Tim's kidnapping is tied to chronological issue in the next few arcs; it's possible that Shiva may react to his death as her former student in the upcoming TEC arc, and if Tim "reconnecting" with people was an issue, maybe Bruce or Stephanie start to notice issues with his career and their interactions with him. Either way, it seems to me that Tim has to have something major coming up; there's nothing subtle about being kidnapped by Oz, and it seems heavily implied Tim's past is part of the reason why.

[Lhynn]

To add to what godisawesome said. His Red Robin persona was the culmination Tims character development in every way. Every skill Tim developed as robin became a signature as Red Robin, an analytical mind, great subterfuge very competent hand to hand, a clear mind in the middle of a fight. We also see him Take everything everyone ever taught him and put it to practice.

Nicieza went even further. Let me quote Dixon here: "He becomes involved with a renegade Drug Enforcement Agency agent and Lady Shiva, and the three of them travel from France to Hong Kong, battling the King Snake and his hench-person Lynx, who I hope will be Robin's female nemesis, his Catwoman, along the way."

Nicieza obviously knew who he was writing and developing when he did it, and its the only reason that despite everything editorial did to Tim, he not only survived his passage to Red Robin, but he thrived there, as the logical continuation of the character.

[Godlike13]

The Red Robin persona was literally a left over persona Tim adopted because he couldn't be Robin anymore. One of Dick Grayson's alternate reality personas they slapped onto Tim. And then Yost and Nicieza pretty much continued the mini-Bruce characterization we were often seeing with Tim when he was Robin. A logical continuation of the character, sure i guess, but not really a modern evolution.
When i say modern evolution, i mean something the speaks to the times, like what they recently did with Batgirl with her Burnside run, and Dick with Grayson. Modern takes on the characters, that speak to the current times, with new and seemingly different ideas. That keeps people interested in them and gets people to talk about what they are doing. Even if they could put Tim back into a similar position as he was in before, he is still gonna find him self in a tough spot as long as they are unable to come up with new and interesting things with him.

[Atlanta96]

The Red Robin persona was literally a left over persona Tim adopted because he couldn't be Robin anymore. One of Dick Grayson's alternate reality personas they slapped onto Tim. And then Yost and Nicieza pretty much continued the mini-Bruce characterization we were often seeing with Tim when he was Robin. A logical continuation of the character, sure i guess, but not really a modern evolution.
When i say modern evolution, i mean something the speaks to the times, like what they recently did with Batgirl with her Burnside run, and Dick with Grayson. Modern takes on the characters, that speak to the current times, with new and seemingly different ideas. That keeps people interested in them and gets people to talk about what they are doing. Even if that could put Tim back into a similar position as he was in before, he is still gonna find him self in a tough spot as long as they are unable to come up with new and interesting things with him.

He hasn't had a solo in 5 years (Batman Beyond doesn't count). What makes you so sure they've run into a creative dead end with him when he hasn't even gotten the chance? Or even a decent Teen Titans writer. The transition from Robin to Red Robin is pretty similar to Dick becoming Nightwing, the name Nightwing was originally used by Superman long ago so it wasn't even unique to Dick. And this modern take you're asking for, in the style of Burnside Batgirl, does not apply to the vast majority of superhero comics. Most of them get by with plain old good writing and stories and character development. Things that have all been missing from Tim throughout the New 52.

[godisawesome]

The Red Robin persona was literally a left over persona Tim adopted because he couldn't be Robin anymore. One of Dick Grayson's alternate reality personas they slapped onto Tim. And then Yost and Nicieza pretty much continued the mini-Bruce characterization we were often seeing with Tim when he was Robin. A logical continuation of the character, sure i guess, but not really a modern evolution.
When i say modern evolution, i mean something the speaks to the times, like what they recently did with Batgirl with her Burnside run, and Dick with Grayson. Modern takes on the characters, that speak to the current times, with new and seemingly different ideas. That keeps people interested in them and gets people to talk about what they are doing. Even if that could put Tim back into a similar position as he was in before, he is still gonna find him self in a tough spot as long as they are unable to come up with new and interesting things with him.

We are getting into matters of tastes here, so I can't quite refute some of your points. But I have to admit that Burnside Batgirl didn't strike me as either very original or immediately engaging; to me, it's repackaging Stephanie Brown's Batgirl run into a vaguely more "hipster"-ish direction, but doing it with a character who I still feel should be a much bigger overall threat as the former Oracle-who-still-beat-up-ninja's-while-in-a-wheelchair. Grayson is a good point for you though; I'm not a huge fan of it, but it sounds good. Then again, it is by and large an entire genre-shift for Dick Grayson, caused by a crossover plot element that has now been compeltley shelved. At least some of the appeal is that a Gotham character was going full Bond, while at the same time some people were expressing doubt that this could be a final change. Maybe it could have been, and maybe DC just got cold feet and wanted to promote Nightwing again.

But you do have a point that I don't think you explicitly pointed out: Tim can't just be a Nightwing archetype when the actual Nightwing is also deployed. Tim may have had such a successful niche Pre-Flashpoint because he wasn't just a fascinating change-up on the graduated Robin schtick, but also the only graduated Robin with a solo, since Dick was doing very well as Batman. Having said that, to me he was still in a different enough style and design that I loved it as a different animal from Nightwing. I picked up Nicieza's run on Robin originally because I heard decent things about Jason Todd's apprehended there (remember, this was right after the horrendous Countdown), and I stayed because this new Tim Drake was fascinating.

To me, Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin was a modern evolution of the character, not just a logical progressions. The unique qualities that had served to make him fresh as Robin in the 90's were all upgraded: his detective skills and tactics all evolved into manipulations and counterintelligence-strategems, his struggle between his civilian life and his vigilante life was now further exacerbated and intertwined, but with him as a the primary cause of both instead of being torn between two father figures. And while I can understand the "mini-Batman" or "mini-Bruce" appellation critics kept giving him, I don't think it's anymore accurate than calling Dick "Batman with a smile and a butt" or Jason "Batman with guns." And it's because it felt like an organic outgrowth of the character, the result of character development to external stimulus that shouldn't be reversed. And to me, that growth is a necessity to DC comics, which is why I'm hopeful Rebirth continues to either course correct characters like Tim, or just allow them to grow and not remain in some status quo.

[Pohzee]

Grayson was well written, but it didn't feel like a natural progression for the character. There's not much room for progression for Tim since his characterization was created to be an evergreen Robin.

[Lhynn]

There's not much room for progression for Tim since his characterization was created to be an evergreen Robin.

Have you not been reading the last 3 pages?
Heck, even godisawesome last post illustrates well why this doesnt get in the way of the character developing.

[Aioros22]

He hasn't had a solo in 5 years (Batman Beyond doesn't count). What makes you so sure they've run into a creative dead end with him when he hasn't even gotten the chance? Or even a decent Teen Titans writer. The transition from Robin to Red Robin is pretty similar to Dick becoming Nightwing, the name Nightwing was originally used by Superman long ago so it wasn't even unique to Dick.

Also with the cavitae of Jason having been the first to use the Red Robin moniker in continuity. But now I`ll probbaly say something that may surprise some folks. Tim Red Robin`s run, in terms of character, similarities with Bruce as may as godisawesome points out (at least from fan perspective) I saw it as a natural extension of Tim Drake into maturity and to me more enjoyable than Tim`s last legs as oficial Batman partner, which I haven`t found as exciting to read for a time.

There was smart writing and execution to be found in there.

[godisawesome]

Grayson was well written, but it didn't feel like a natural progression for the character. There's not much room for progression for Tim since his characterization was created to be an evergreen Robin.

I don't quite know exactly what you mean by evergreen Robin, so I'm going to assume you meant as an eternally fresh variation on the character that doesn't change. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

I'd disagree with that assessment for Pre-Flashpoint Tim, but not for the New 52 version. Pre-Flashpoint Tim ran through arguably the most dynamic time period of Batman books, and he definitely changed little by little as ten years passed. A running gag among Tim fans for a while in Red Robin was editorial's insistence that Tim was only 17; he'd turned seventeen before the OYL storylines, but they were desperate to try and not age him, while the writers kept on moving his character's de facto age up and he became a veteran vigilante. And even TEC kind of had this, with I think Tynion at one point having to say Tim was only 16 in interviews before the relaunch, but writing the character as an experienced veteran desiring to attend college.

New 52 Red Robin, on the other hand, did feel like Lobdell and the Superman editorial board was trying to fix the character into some kind of static, eternally young status quo. They wanted him to have a severely truncated time as Batman's partner, tried to make his Red Robin personality his starter one (which they both botched and failed to justify), handicapped his service as Batman's sidekick by making him only ever Red Robin, and eliminated his previous character growth entirely by making him a prodigy acrobat and computer genius with no prior training. And they did all that while trying to force him into a Nightwing role that he wasn't made for; his costume was basically a more 90's variation of the Disco-Nightwing look (they even removed a cowl Booth gave him in concert drawings) and even had him mimick Dick's love life down to including sexual assault presented as romance. His voice never changed and he never seemed to learn from what was happening a round him because they perceived him as the stable heart of the Teen Titans, inadvertently making him seem unobservant and bland.

And that's why I'm really curious how Rebirth Tim is going to end up. You remove that one conversation between Tim and Bruce that references the New 52 "only ever Red Robin" thing, and the character reads like he's just been plucked from the end of the Red Robin solo. He's more introspective, observant, and has some true humility in his conduct towards Kate and Bruce, all while having a relationship with Stephanie that feels like a very familiar one, a far cry from their New 52 status as a mere aquaintances. I'm kind of hoping we see some of the possible ripples from Tim reconnecting with who he shouldn't be reconnecting with according to OZ.

[Pohzee]

I meant that Tim was created to be a lasting, modernized take on Robin. Following the controversial death of Jason Todd, Tim was created to last.

Progression is probably a poor choice of word for what I was thinking of, but without the hooks that the rest of the Robins have (first, dead, newest, etc.) it is harder for Tim to find his 'Grayson' moment. Red Robin was a good progression for Tim, but it was no Grayson in terms of change of direction and storytelling, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. As we can see with hindsight, Grayson didn't last.

[Buried Alien]

I meant that Tim was created to be a lasting, modernized take on Robin. Following the controversial death of Jason Todd, Tim was created to last.

Progression is probably a poor choice of word for what I was thinking of, but without the hooks that the rest of the Robins have (first, dead, newest, etc.) it is harder for Tim to find his 'Grayson' moment. Red Robin was a good progression for Tim, but it was no Grayson in terms of change of direction and storytelling, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. As we can see with hindsight, Grayson didn't last.

In many ways, though, I see what Dick did in his GRAYSON title much better-suited to Tim than it was to Dick. I almost wish that the title had been DRAKE instead of GRAYSON. That role was almost custom-made for Tim, but it went to Dick instead.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)