Major possible Tim Drake SPOILERS

[Orujo-man]

All over the internet, on comic-book-sites and comics-related-sites, people are all super-excited for Detective Comics and specially the last issue "Batman-news" "comic-vine" "newsarama" etc, to name a few, and not just the reviwers themselves, the regular users like us, dozens of them loved the ending, only here people seem to be upset about it, because Tynion didn't left clues to what was to come, some will say its lazy-writting, and actually they aren't wrong, although its a matter of taste, though, on my case i prefer clifhangers to be like this, i don't want to see them coming, i will try to, but i prefer if i can't, because the surprise hits us right in the feels, the impact its just bigger this way.
Plus, i've been following the sales-reports, when they come out, and one of them its weekly, the "bleedingcool best seller list" which unlike others its more focused on what the readers actually buy than on how many comics the stores order, and while Tec' has been doing great since its "relaunch" it was always 3rd place on their top 10 behind either Batman or all star Batman, which were always number 1 and the "flash" issues which were always 2º place, but this week Tec' was 2º place and flash was 3rd, indicatting that Tec's sales actually increased, but the "top 300 comics" table that will come out later this week, will clarify.

I hate that argument. So if some reviewers put it good and it has good sales automatically is good? Like all the music who wins awards and films?

Yes, why question something if someone tell us it's good? Is better not think for ourselves.

Like you said, each one has his own tastes and his own arguments. I don't mind if the majority don't share my opionion because it's only that, an opinion. Like all the opinions. Not an absolute truth, not an universal rule.

Edit: I didn't want to be rude with you, even if it seems that.

[Lhynn]

Seems pretty self-loathingly pathetic for Tim Drake.

It was, thats the reason it was so great. Here we have a kid that has literally lost more than the entire batfamily put together, and this has happened while he was on active duty (and none of it had much to do with developing the character itself. it was mostly editorial wanting to sell and using drakes support cast as sacrifices for that. wargames, bludhaven being destroyed, blackest night, final crisis, etc.), and this is the normal, grounded kid of the batfam. He was at his lowest, most vulnerable and it gave him depth.
You see, hes not a super badass like the rest of the team, and he has always fought enemies that would give any other batfam member pause. Only reason he won was that he used his head. Every victory was earned, and every loss was very costly.
People that say Drake is perfect dont understand the character, its the complete opposite. He has had to compensate for lack everything with planning, with a weapon with reach, by working harder than any other and polishing every skill, by calculating every jump before he jumps. And thats the beauty of the character. He has always been the little guy, the underdog.
And those stories resonate with their readers because weve all been there.

Red Robin was his transition into badass territory, and having it happen from such a position of weakness makes it all the more meaningful.

[Orujo-man]

It was, thats the reason it was so great. Here we have a kid that has literally lost more than the entire batfamily put together, and this has happened while he was on active duty (and none of it had much to do with developing the character itself. it was mostly editorial wanting to sell and using drakes support cast as sacrifices for that. wargames, bludhaven being destroyed, blackest night, final crisis, etc.), and this is the normal, grounded kid of the batfam. He was at his lowest, most vulnerable and it gave him depth.
You see, hes not a super badass like the rest of the team, and he has always fought enemies that would give any other batfam member pause. Only reason he won was that he used his head. Every victory was earned, and every loss was very costly.
People that say Drake is perfect dont understand the character, its the complete opposite. He has had to compensate for lack everything with planning, with a weapon with reach, by working harder than any other and polishing every skill, by calculating every jump before he jumps. And thats the beauty of the character. He has always been the little guy, the underdog.
And those stories resonate with their readers because weve all been there.

Red Robin was his transition into badass territory, and having it happen from such a position of weakness makes it all the more meaningful.

I agree with you in all you said about the old Red Robin. But ironically, his old characterización is now the problem. He needs to evolve like the rest of the Robins.

Now we have a Tim who is top gymnast, very decent fighter and genius in technology and computers. But he don't have any shotcomings. If you want to power-up a character like Tim, you need to take another thing for him in compensation, because the feeling of character who wins by effort and by his intelligence is lost.

I didn't see any of that in new52 or now in current rebirth. I only see a guy who is perfect is all the things who do. I really think they don't know what do with him, because now they can't bring back the old Robin when he appears again in the future, he can't stuck in old Tim forever.

[oasis1313]

All over the internet, on comic-book-sites and comics-related-sites, people are all super-excited for Detective Comics and specially the last issue "Batman-news" "comic-vine" "newsarama" etc, to name a few, and not just the reviwers themselves, the regular users like us, dozens of them loved the ending, only here people seem to be upset about it, because Tynion didn't left clues to what was to come, some will say its lazy-writting, and actually they aren't wrong, although its a matter of taste, though, on my case i prefer clifhangers to be like this, i don't want to see them coming, i will try to, but i prefer if i can't, because the surprise hits us right in the feels, the impact its just bigger this way.
Plus, i've been following the sales-reports, when they come out, and one of them its weekly, the "bleedingcool best seller list" which unlike others its more focused on what the readers actually buy than on how many comics the stores order, and while Tec' has been doing great since its "relaunch" it was always 3rd place on their top 10 behind either Batman or all star Batman, which were always number 1 and the "flash" issues which were always 2º place, but this week Tec' was 2º place and flash was 3rd, indicatting that Tec's sales actually increased, but the "top 300 comics" table that will come out later this week, will clarify.

"Big Death Stories" ALWAYS sell comics, at least for a month or two.

[Lhynn]

I agree with you in all you said about the old Red Robin. But ironically, his old characterización is now the problem. He needs to evolve like the rest of the Robins.

Now we have a Tim who is top gymnast, very decent fighter and genius in technology and computers. But he don't have any shotcomings. If you want to power-up a character like Tim, you need to take another thing for him in compensation, because the feeling of character who wins by effort and by his intelligence is lost.

I didn't see any of that in new52 or now in current rebirth. I only see a guy who is perfect is all the things who do. I really think they don't know what do with him, because now they can't bring back the old Robin when he appears again in the future, he can't stuck in old Tim forever.

Very decent fighter? new 52 Tim went toe to toe against superboy and almost beats him, he also went against trigon and forced him to retreat. He has been seen destroying steel robots with his bare hands, or spliting them in half with his bo.
New 52 tim could probably give batman a run for his money.
Also olympic athlete and super genious computer wizard with a knack for robotics.

They really made him OP to overcompensate for a very poorly written character. Thinking this would appease fans in some way, but it didnt.

[Atlanta96]

Very decent fighter? new 52 Tim went toe to toe against superboy and almost beats him, he also went against trigon and forced him to retreat. He has been seen destroying steel robots with his bare hands, or spliting them in half with his bo.
New 52 tim could probably give batman a run for his money.
Also olympic athlete and super genious computer wizard with a knack for robotics.

They really made him OP to overcompensate for a very poorly written character. Thinking this would appease fans in some way, but it didnt.

And despite all that, Damien was still able to knock him out with a single punch. I know inconsistencies will always happen in comics but that was ridiculous. Sorry to keep sucking up to 'Tec, but it does a good job balancing Tim's fighting skills. Like how he was able to defeat the first wave of drones but it took so much out of him that the second wave could just obliterate him.

[Orujo-man]

Very decent fighter? new 52 Tim went toe to toe against superboy and almost beats him, he also went against trigon and forced him to retreat. He has been seen destroying steel robots with his bare hands, or spliting them in half with his bo.
New 52 tim could probably give batman a run for his money.
Also olympic athlete and super genious computer wizard with a knack for robotics.

They really made him OP to overcompensate for a very poorly written character. Thinking this would appease fans in some way, but it didnt.

When I was put very decent fighter I mean he is in pair with Dick and Jason but yeah, you right, bad choice of words. The thing is they make Tim OP.

[godisawesome]

And despite all that, Damien was still able to knock him out with a single punch. I know inconsistencies will always happen in comics but that was ridiculous. Sorry to keep sucking up to 'Tec, but it does a good job balancing Tim's fighting skills. Like how he was able to defeat the first wave of drones but it took so much out of him that the second wave could just obliterate him.

That was actually Pre-Flashpoint Tim, who was still a good fighter, but not an exceptionally gifted one compared to his peers. His first fight with Damian actually demonstrated the way the two characters should have been portrayed; Tim displays a higher degree of awareness and seems to have no problem defending against Damian, but is still susceptible to a sucker punch.

New 52 Tim lost that martial characterization, and his increased fighting skills both sucked out the tension of his fights and made him boring in action scenes. Old Tim Drake often found himself outmatched, and had to compensate by getting creative (using a whistle on his bo to distract King Snake, poisoning Shiva's chocolates, bringing a cavern down on top of the Council of Spiders, etc.) or risk being easily handled (like the Russian super-thug who shrugs off his punch and nearly kills him in red Robin). All of that si engaging stuff, and played to the idea that Tim was in danger. New 52 Tim had the stupid wings made of Legion Of Superheroes metal that enabled him to punch Superboy (which never quite made sense at all) or stab Trigon in the eyes. Laaaaammmmeee!

I agree with you in all you said about the old Red Robin. But ironically, his old characterización is now the problem. He needs to evolve like the rest of the Robins.

Now we have a Tim who is top gymnast, very decent fighter and genius in technology and computers. But he don't have any shotcomings. If you want to power-up a character like Tim, you need to take another thing for him in compensation, because the feeling of character who wins by effort and by his intelligence is lost.

I didn't see any of that in new52 or now in current rebirth. I only see a guy who is perfect is all the things who do. I really think they don't know what do with him, because now they can't bring back the old Robin when he appears again in the future, he can't stuck in old Tim forever.

Which is why I'm curious about whether or not Rebirth actually involves any plans to overhaul the character. Because everything in bold could be eliminated pretty easily; once you've allowed a mysterious villain possibly tied to Rebirth's chronological shenanigans to instantaneously teleport away a Batcharacter to fake his death and seal him in a cell, changing his history isn't any great stretch in comparison. And considering an impetus behind Rebirth has been changing New 52 elements that didn't work, you'd think that tying Tim to that automatically puts him in that category. And fans have been vocally requesting that for some time, at least on two boards I frequent.

The question is whether DC, or maybe more particularly, Geoff Johns and James Tynion IV, believe that Tim would benefit from a changed background from the New 52 variation. Clearly, DC management felt that Superman needed to be changed, and replaced him seemingly wholesale. They also felt that Greg Rucka should be allowed to do what he thinks is best with Wonder Woman, and flat out broke one of their attempts to change a property by bringing back Wally West from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. And it's not like they've been hands off on the Batfamily: Dick's history with the Titans has been recalled, Babs served as Oracle all of a sudden, and Jason stole tires off the Batmobile again. None of those characters had quite as much of a disgust at their New 52 origin as Tim's fans developed for his.

My ideal outcome right now? Tim gets his past restructured, possibly alongside a reintroduction of Kon and Bart in more recognizable forms, and the Tim we end up with occupies a position roughly similar to his Red Robin solo form, preferably complete with a cowl and at least a history as Robin. But I'd don't know if DC thinks that way.

[Orujo-man]

Which is why I'm curious about whether or not Rebirth actually involves any plans to overhaul the character. Because everything in bold could be eliminated pretty easily; once you've allowed a mysterious villain possibly tied to Rebirth's chronological shenanigans to instantaneously teleport away a Batcharacter to fake his death and seal him in a cell, changing his history isn't any great stretch in comparison. And considering an impetus behind Rebirth has been changing New 52 elements that didn't work, you'd think that tying Tim to that automatically puts him in that category. And fans have been vocally requesting that for some time, at least on two boards I frequent.

The question is whether DC, or maybe more particularly, Geoff Johns and James Tynion IV, believe that Tim would benefit from a changed background from the New 52 variation. Clearly, DC management felt that Superman needed to be changed, and replaced him seemingly wholesale. They also felt that Greg Rucka should be allowed to do what he thinks is best with Wonder Woman, and flat out broke one of their attempts to change a property by bringing back Wally West from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. And it's not like they've been hands off on the Batfamily: Dick's history with the Titans has been recalled, Babs served as Oracle all of a sudden, and Jason stole tires off the Batmobile again. None of those characters had quite as much of a disgust at their New 52 origin as Tim's fans developed for his.

My ideal outcome right now? Tim gets his past restructured, possibly alongside a reintroduction of Kon and Bart in more recognizable forms, and the Tim we end up with occupies a position roughly similar to his Red Robin solo form, preferably complete with a cowl and at least a history as Robin. But I'd don't know if DC thinks that way.

But though his past is restructured, it will not change what it is now. In the case of he recovers his memories and part of his personality, but will not lose their fighting skills or their skills as a gymnast, nor his mastery with technology and computers.

Even if he loses his actual memories and they changes for the memories of the Old Tim, the body has their own memories, muscle memory. In fact his body is not the same of the Old Tim. He will be stronger and more skilled and flexible than the Old Tim. He only becomes a shadow of the Old Tim. And the worst, he has the same problems of now.

Only way to do this is kill actual Tim and bring back the Old Tim.

[Lhynn]

Only way to do this is kill actual Tim and bring back the Old Tim.

That or maybe say that all of Tims skills were actually retained from his past. A veteran vigilante trained by Dick himself in acrobatics, by Shiva, Cassandra and Bruce on hand to hand. By Bruce, alfred and he himself on detective work, etc.
In a world where everyone lost those skills and experience.

Personally id rather off with this tim and bring the old one back.

[Orujo-man]

That or maybe say that all of Tims skills were actually retained from his past. A veteran vigilante trained by Dick himself in acrobatics, by Shiva, Cassandra and Bruce on hand to hand. By Bruce, alfred and he himself on detective work, etc.
In a world where everyone lost those skills and experience.

Personally id rather off with this tim and bring the old one back.

I see where you want to go, but Lady Shiva trained him only one week. Also in the new continuity Batman, Alfred and Grayson also had to train him a little, albeit sporadically.

And if the Old Tim is higher than the actual Tim problem is still there, Tim is OP even in that way.

[Lhynn]

I see where you want to go, but Lady Shiva trained him only one week. Also in the new continuity Batman, Alfred and Grayson also had to train him a little, albeit sporadically.

And if the Old Tim is higher than the actual Tim problem is still there, Tim is OP even in that way.

He was far more dangerous pre 52 than he has been in any title since flashpoint. That was never a problem.

The problem is that it must be interesting to read, its that it must be tense and engaging and New 52 Tim never acomplished that. Tec Tim didnt even show us a fight, sadly.

[KrustyKid]

That was actually Pre-Flashpoint Tim, who was still a good fighter, but not an exceptionally gifted one compared to his peers. His first fight with Damian actually demonstrated the way the two characters should have been portrayed; Tim displays a higher degree of awareness and seems to have no problem defending against Damian, but is still susceptible to a sucker punch.

Damian did one shot Tim in the New-52 as well in Robin War

[Orujo-man]

He was far more dangerous pre 52 than he has been in any title since flashpoint. That was never a problem.

The problem is that it must be interesting to read, its that it must be tense and engaging and New 52 Tim never acomplished that. Tec Tim didnt even show us a fight, sadly.

Agree. They must make him interesting to read. What I mean with all of this, they can't make him interesting to us with the "robin who wins by effort and intelligence to compesate his lacks" because he don't have these lacks anymore. At least in comparison with the others.

[KrustyKid]

Agree. They must make him interesting to read. What I mean with all of this, they can't make him interesting to us with the "robin who wins by effort and intelligence to compesate his lacks" because he don't have these lacks anymore. At least in comparison with the others.

Are any of the Robin's lacking in anything these days? From what I can tell they're all pretty solid. And as smart as Tim has been said to be, he's been wrong more than he has been right. He's also failed more than succeed, ironically more than anyone else in the Bat Fam. Doesn't really scream OP to me, at least not anymore than any of the others who have received training from Batman.