New Champions Appreciation 2018

[The Dying Detective]

Don't forget, during that incident in Champions #1, the Avengers were down to only four members - Kamala, Sam Wilson, Jane Foster, and Vision (Tony was in his coma and Miles and Nova had already quit). It was only in Avengers #1 just after that that Hercules and Peter Parker were recruited, with Nadia also given full membership at that point. I reckon Sam Wilson was pretty stressed out that day.

During Worlds Collide, there was a moment where Nova was lashing out and Falcon yelled at Kamala, telling her to keep her teammate under control. And then in No Surrender, Johnny Storm disregarded one of Falcon's orders because it wasn't what Reed Richards would've done. Honestly, Sam Wilson just seems to have trouble leading his team (he was only Avengers leader in the first place because of Iron Man's coma). In fact, since he knew Thor was the cancer patient Jane Foster, he almost got her killed by allowing her to continue. Hell, maybe that's why teen Falcon and Patriot didn't stick around after Champion For a Day - they support Sam Wilson and the other Champions don't.

So they're members are just made up the anti-Sam Wilson club. Hah! As far as I am concerned their stories need more work then we can talk about making Kamala, Morales, and Alexander into anything worth talking about. That's really the problem with them they need better stories. Not even their creators have done enough to give them their due. Kamala had a potentially great villain the Doc.X Virus a real Sigma in the making but that ended wrongly to my dismay.

[Skedatz]

To be fair they're not just "team anti-Cap Wilson," because they're combative. They previously served on an Avenger's team with Wilson and left over differences in leadership and vision, and then Wilson came in during World's Collide and was more or less assuming command of both teams. It was more or less a bigger like an uninvited corporate entity coming down on a small corporate entity and telling it what to do, but at the same time the smaller corporate entity already had a distaste for how the larger entity ran things and didn't enjoy being yelled at or condescended to.

In the end, Kamala and co. worked with the Avengers (though the shared loss of Viv was a huge part) and successfully aligned their resources to best handle the situation. Including Kamala having a, "I should have a better handle" moment.

A lot of people seem to ignore the "working together" part because the "clashing apart" is just easier to remember. Sorta like it's easier to remember Hank Pym as a wife beater and not as Professor Pym because that's just not as attention grabbing.

[leo619]

Just ignore them. Along with their other gaps in knowledge, they seem to think that these Trinities are based on in-universe accomplishments. DC's Trinity formed as such through Supes, Bats and Wondy being the three heroes popular enough to maintain their own titles through the fifties and onward while also being internationally recognizable icons, while Marvel's 'Trinity' has historically not even been close to DC's, Thor and Iron Man being characters most of the general public wasn't familiar with till the MCU.

And this is combine with people being upset when legacy characters are pushed to the forefront. Ultimately, not only they not view these characters as marvel's trinity, they don't want them to be up to that degree. But ignoring them isn't really a positive solution. Sometimes it works, sometimes you get instances like Michelle Tran, who removes all of her instangram post because she gets bombarded by these people. Ignoring only works to a certain point, plus it just soils the conversation from people who actually are interested, liked the characters.

This is something we've talked about on the DC threads, but if DC actually knew what they were doing, Cass Cain and Jaime Reyes would easily be able to serve as counters to Kamala and Miles.

Cass Cain I agree somewhat, though Jaime would be more counters to Sam than Miles Morales. DC's counter to Miles would be closer to Val Zod or
New Super man if done right. Though Val Zod would probably be the best bet.

[The Dying Detective]

To be fair they're not just "team anti-Cap Wilson," because they're combative. They previously served on an Avenger's team with Wilson and left over differences in leadership and vision, and then Wilson came in during World's Collide and was more or less assuming command of both teams. It was more or less a bigger like an uninvited corporate entity coming down on a small corporate entity and telling it what to do, but at the same time the smaller corporate entity already had a distaste for how the larger entity ran things and didn't enjoy being yelled at or condescended to.

In the end, Kamala and co. worked with the Avengers (though the shared loss of Viv was a huge part) and successfully aligned their resources to best handle the situation. Including Kamala having a, "I should have a better handle" moment.

A lot of people seem to ignore the "working together" part because the "clashing apart" is just easier to remember. Sorta like it's easier to remember Hank Pym as a wife beater and not as Professor Pym because that's just not as attention grabbing.

Sure fine I get that much though the aftermath of Viv's apparent loss leaves much to be desired especially Nova's ludicrously misplaced anger.

[Skedatz]

Sure fine I get that much though the aftermath of Viv's apparent loss leaves much to be desired especially Nova's ludicrously misplaced anger.

Nova's reaction was an end result of the team up. Starting at the beginning, Nova basically got told he didn't try hard enough, and his response wasn't like some batcrazy guy. He just said he tried his hardest and asked if Falcon even saw him. Then ended it with a meek and self-realizing, "Sir?" Showing he was holding his attitude back while still respecting Falcon. Hulk was probably the one with the most mouth on him when he told Falcon to back off. And then Falcon decided be a jerk primarily to Ms. Marvel and condescend hard on her, a theme he carried over till the end of the teamup. Again, Hulk is the one who might've overstepped most here because Falcon's mouth got him a Hulk fist shaped response. Yet, somehow Falcon was the one who still carried Hercules off. No clue how that worked out if I'm honest.


Finally, Nova's culminated response in anger was after everybody lost Viv. Since Nova is pretty much just teen hormone boy who lost his crush because teams couldn't work together as well and forced Viv to self sacrifice Nova isn't exactly super overreacting here. He tries quitting the team because he's also really angry at himself. In his mind Viv is dead and the dysfunction of the Avengers/Champions teamup is what caused it, and THEN was told how he should feel about it in regards to his lost friend. Teenagers aren't exactly the most rational or coolest heads of any bunch, so it's not super surprising the hottest head of the Avengers gets fired up immediately after losing his friend while being lectuerd by a team who more or less treated him and his friends with less than appropriate respect. And is really not too much different than how some other heroes behave when they feel personally insulted to high degrees after people give them terrible treatment and bad advice.

Was Sam in the right for blasting Hercules? Oh heck no. This sort of response is never "right" for a superhero. Hercules was only trying to help, and was one of two Avengers who were both cordial and friendly to the Champions. Herc was just being Herc. But was Sam just flying way off the handle for no reason? Far from it. Because his anger wasn't misplaced in Hercules himself, but directed towards the Avengers and himself who he saw as too busy doing their own thing and fighting and let Viv die.

I really recommend people go back and read the crossover. Some initial feelings about it were pretty harsh, but that's because they're so used to seeing hero vs. hero stuff it all sorta blurs together. That, and them uppity kids and all that. I'm not saying this is you personally, it's just something I've picked up from some responses. And I want to stress this because I honestly have no clue how you feel about the Champions and whatnot.

I viewed it through the lens of Wolverine and Cyclops, full completely grown men who get into fist fights over weird stuff and mutual loss. But Nova does it and people call him way out of line.

[Assam]

Cass Cain I agree somewhat, though Jaime would be more counters to Sam than Miles Morales. DC's counter to Miles would be closer to Val Zod or
New Super man if done right. Though Val Zod would probably be the best bet.

Was Val Zod a teenager? I never knew that...

Also now I really want a Kenan, Cass, Jaime team-up becomes that sounds amazing.

[leo619]

Was Val Zod a teenager? I never knew that...

Also now I really want a Kenan, Cass, Jaime team-up becomes that sounds amazing.

That was the weird thing about Val Zod. He originally was a teenager, very slim and young looking but that was because he kept away from sunlight. The minute that he got sunlight, he aged drastically to almost mid 20's. It was really weird because he went from being mothered by Lois Lane to dating PG.

So that's what I meant by DC didn't really know what they wanted to do with him, it's like because the world they were in were more "old school" they decided to age him up.

But there's a reason why you see images like this on the internet:

[Digifiend]

So they're members are just made up the anti-Sam Wilson club. Hah! As far as I am concerned their stories need more work then we can talk about making Kamala, Morales, and Alexander into anything worth talking about. That's really the problem with them they need better stories. Not even their creators have done enough to give them their due. Kamala had a potentially great villain the Doc.X Virus a real Sigma in the making but that ended wrongly to my dismay.

Have you read the latest arc of Ms Marvel? spoilers:

Some new alpha bitch turned up at her school. Displayed super strength by crushing a locker. Turns out she was a robot, controlled by Doc.X.

end of spoilers

[Skedatz]

Have you read the latest arc of Ms Marvel? spoilers:

Some new alpha bitch turned up at her school. Displayed super strength by crushing a locker. Turns out she was a robot, controlled by Doc.X.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

There were some serious Ultron vibes in that one. You know... If Ultron were sillier in a ha-ha way.

end of spoilers

[Frontier]

Kamala, Miles, Sam - Marvel's new Trinity?
https://www.cbr.com/marvel-new-trini...sam-alexander/

CBR seems a little late to the game. People were calling out Kamala, Sam, and Miles as a teen trinity pretty early on in ANAD Marvel.

Cass Cain I agree somewhat, though Jaime would be more counters to Sam than Miles Morales. DC's counter to Miles would be closer to Val Zod or
New Super man if done right. Though Val Zod would probably be the best bet.

Val Zod seems similar to the old version of Miles from the Ultimate universe who was the sole Spider-Man of his world after the death of the original, while the current Miles is more like Kenan/Super-Man since he's a POC using the same Superhero name and legacy as another active adult hero.

[Xalfrea]

Aside from the fact that this grouping of these particular three has been known for at least two-three years now, I'm not sure if they could even be significant enough of being called THE Marvel trio. Teen trio perhaps, as the frontrunners for Marvel's teen characters, but of the entire lineup in general? That's a massively tall order, not the least which because for all this touting of the three being their own little band, Marvel has barely done anything with the idea.

Crossovers and cameos in each other's books, fanart, and the three being slightly prominent in Champions, or having their own little moments in Civil War II, but that's about it. A book with these three as the focus would go to great lengths for supporting the idea. In addition, the Sam Nova I feel is the weakest link in all this because of his lack of prominence, at least compared to the other two. Miles' Spider-Man is a guaranteed lock to not be going anywhere, being the face of the youthful Spidey and getting his own animated movie. Kamala's Ms. Marvel is Marvel's most recent success and has been appearing rapidly everywhere, has the most separate titles she's appeared, and is coming up in an ensemble movie.

Sam's Nova though? It may be that I haven't read stuff he's been in, but I feel he's not as prominent as he used to be.

[The Dying Detective]

Have you read the latest arc of Ms Marvel? spoilers:

Some new alpha bitch turned up at her school. Displayed super strength by crushing a locker. Turns out she was a robot, controlled by Doc.X.

end of spoilers

I know and what happened when it ended was why I was disappointed but it's Ms. Marvel what more can I expect?

[Xalfrea]

Exactly how is the book "a little too kiddish"? Not any anger towards that sentiment of the series since it is primarily a book about a teenage girl, but just curiosity. And how, in your opinion, should the book go about its business and what it wants to do?

[The Dying Detective]

Nova's reaction was an end result of the team up. Starting at the beginning, Nova basically got told he didn't try hard enough, and his response wasn't like some batcrazy guy. He just said he tried his hardest and asked if Falcon even saw him. Then ended it with a meek and self-realizing, "Sir?" Showing he was holding his attitude back while still respecting Falcon. Hulk was probably the one with the most mouth on him when he told Falcon to back off. And then Falcon decided be a jerk primarily to Ms. Marvel and condescend hard on her, a theme he carried over till the end of the teamup. Again, Hulk is the one who might've overstepped most here because Falcon's mouth got him a Hulk fist shaped response. Yet, somehow Falcon was the one who still carried Hercules off. No clue how that worked out if I'm honest.


Finally, Nova's culminated response in anger was after everybody lost Viv. Since Nova is pretty much just teen hormone boy who lost his crush because teams couldn't work together as well and forced Viv to self sacrifice Nova isn't exactly super overreacting here. He tries quitting the team because he's also really angry at himself. In his mind Viv is dead and the dysfunction of the Avengers/Champions teamup is what caused it, and THEN was told how he should feel about it in regards to his lost friend. Teenagers aren't exactly the most rational or coolest heads of any bunch, so it's not super surprising the hottest head of the Avengers gets fired up immediately after losing his friend while being lectuerd by a team who more or less treated him and his friends with less than appropriate respect. And is really not too much different than how some other heroes behave when they feel personally insulted to high degrees after people give them terrible treatment and bad advice.

Was Sam in the right for blasting Hercules? Oh heck no. This sort of response is never "right" for a superhero. Hercules was only trying to help, and was one of two Avengers who were both cordial and friendly to the Champions. Herc was just being Herc. But was Sam just flying way off the handle for no reason? Far from it. Because his anger wasn't misplaced in Hercules himself, but directed towards the Avengers and himself who he saw as too busy doing their own thing and fighting and let Viv die.

I really recommend people go back and read the crossover. Some initial feelings about it were pretty harsh, but that's because they're so used to seeing hero vs. hero stuff it all sorta blurs together. That, and them uppity kids and all that. I'm not saying this is you personally, it's just something I've picked up from some responses. And I want to stress this because I honestly have no clue how you feel about the Champions and whatnot.

I viewed it through the lens of Wolverine and Cyclops, full completely grown men who get into fist fights over weird stuff and mutual loss. But Nova does it and people call him way out of line.

I'm just saying that while Nova's reason for being upset was acceptable how it came out made it a little tough to sympathies with him. And conflict between teams when they team up is a general expectation I had no complaints about it.

[The Dying Detective]

Exactly how is the book "a little too kiddish"? Not any anger towards that sentiment of the series since it is primarily a book about a teenage girl, but just curiosity. And how, in your opinion, should the book go about its business and what it wants to do?

I think it's the art style and sense of humour that makes me think it's too kiddish. Well that and there arean't many if any at all serious villains Doc. X was prospective but I know how turned out and I doubt anyone's going to see him again. The Inventor wasn't really all that impressive just goofy not unexpected of course.