SDCC: "Batman: The Killing Joke" Screenwriter Explains Controversial Sex Scene

[godisawesome]

I'm still waiting for someone to plausibly defend Bruce Wayne as Batman having sex on a rooftop as being in character. I still say the man's too paranoid and just wise in general to do something like that, and someone here has to have a good counter argument.

[darkseidpwns]

It is a Joker story, and that's a double-edged sword. One the one side, it is a good Joker story imo. But, if you're going to make such a radically and extreme change to Barbara (a long-time and popular Bat-character), then it shouldn't be in a story centered around the Joker (where she's a completely throwaway plot-device). It should be in a story centered around HER!

For all the flak that I give Gail Simone for her Batgirl run, at least she got that, if you're going to put Babs through dark crap, it should at least be in her own story.

That may well be a fair criticism against the movie because of Timm's own desire to see Babs be given a juicier role but it's not a knock on the original story. Barbara was retired, she wasn't Batgirl, she was fading out of stories. The irony here is that if not for TKJ and Timm's BTAS she would have gone the way of her predecessor Bette Kane, she was fair game back then, bad stuff happens and she was just a throwaway civilian there, she wasn't attacked because she was Batgirl and she served as a parallel to the comedians/Jokers wife. Revisionist history be damned imo.

[darkseidpwns]

I'm still waiting for someone to plausibly defend Bruce Wayne as Batman having sex on a rooftop as being in character. I still say the man's too paranoid and just wise in general to do something like that, and someone here has to have a good counter argument.

It's not in character but it wont stop the defenders, they'll just say it makes him more flawed and human aka whatever excuse you can come up with to justify OOC decisions, the sort of excuses DCEU/Zack Snyder defenders tend to use. Someone recently even said that people are never in character and that's what makes them interesting to defend this, haha

[godisawesome]

It's not in character but it wont stop the defenders, they'll just say it makes him more flawed and human aka whatever excuse you can come up with to justify OOC decisions, the sort of excuses DCEU/Zack Snyder defenders tend to use. Someone recently even said that people are never in character and that's what makes them interesting to defend this, haha

But I'd even argue that DCEU Batman has some logical argument in the film behind his mistakes, and they seem extrapolated from his traditional character. His biggest change is his violence and paranoia, both traditional vulnerabilities and flaws for the character, cranked up by the feeling of helplessness thanks to the Battle of Metropolis, the death of a Robin, and most of it is portrayed as a recent thing. I mean, it's easy to argue that the change is too drastic in BvS, but there's at least a plausible framework for Bruce going in a direction the character is traditionally worried he'll go.

The only explanation that pops into my head with both this movie and Catwoman #1 portraying an impulsive horn-dog Batman seriously is the tired "Alpha Male Is contractually obligated to have sex with a hot woman" trope, which honestly seems like it wouldn't actually apply to Batman. He's more than the Alpha Male.

[Agent Z]

It may be childhood nostalgia talking, but DCAU Barbara has always been my favorite incarnation of the character. She is more fun than she usually is in the comics, and her day job as a cop and the eventual Commissioner of police is such an obvious career choice that I'm surprised the comics haven't seized upon it at any point.

But...the one blight on this version is the gross Bruce/Babs ship. It thankfully wasn't as in your face in the shows, but here? No thanks. This story was bad enough when it came to Babs, they really didn't need to make it so much worse.



Even with the Batman stuff, I think it was a combination of Timm's talents with Dini, Burnett, Reeves and the whole crew that made the show as amazing as it was during it's best moments. Left to his own devices, I doubt the magic would be there.

Agreed about JL/U, at least in some respects. The DCEU has already done better by Diana in like 7 minutes than Timm managed in five seasons.

Timm's version of Diana isn't my necessarily my favorite but I'll take it over Miller's or the Injustice version.

[emac1790]

I saw the movie. Two things...

One; The sex scene is not necessary.Barbara could have quit being Batgirl because she didn't like going down a darker path. She didn't need a sexual relationship with Bruce to mudding it up.

Two; After Barbara is shot, Batman asks some prostitutes about the joker whereabouts. They tell him that every time Joker escapes Arkham, the first thing he does is seek their services. This time they say he didn't come around. Batman asks them if they know why Joker didn't come to them this time and one of the prostitutes says that maybe Joker found a new girl to see. This (to me, at least) implies the Joker raped Barbara. It implies it more than the comic does.

[borntohula]

Two; After Barbara is shot, Batman asks some prostitutes about the joker whereabouts. They tell him that every time Joker escapes Arkham, the first thing he does is seek their services. This time they say he didn't come around. Batman asks them if they know why Joker didn't come to them this time and one of the prostitutes says that maybe Joker found a new girl to see. This (to me, at least) implies the Joker raped Barbara. It implies it more than the comic does.

Bruce Timm has said in an interview that he'd written that line of dialogue differently if he'd known it'd be viewed as such. He also said he doesn't think Barbara was raped. But adding that she's definitely a victim of sexual abuse/violence, since Joker takes her clothes off and taking pictures.

IMO. They could'v given Joker some awful line like "No no, don't waste your time worrying that I'm gonna... I'm not going to waste my time on some fun. It's only a scare." or something --to take some of the edge off. Given that they intended for Barbara to have more of a character than making cocoa and getting shot.

[emac1790]

Bruce Timm has said in an interview that he'd written that line of dialogue differently if he'd known it'd be viewed as such. He also said he doesn't think Barbara was raped. But adding that she's definitely a victim of sexual abuse/violence, since Joker takes her clothes off and taking pictures.

IMO. They could'v given Joker some awful line like "No no, don't waste your time worrying that I'm gonna... I'm not going to waste my time on some fun. It's only a scare." or something --to take some of the edge off. Given that they intended for Barbara to have more of a character than making cocoa and getting shot.

TBH, the scene was unnecessary. It was there to say "The Joker sees prostitutes. Isn't this edgy?" I can't see how Timm didn't see the dialogue as problematic.

And yes, Barbara is the victim of sexual assault at the very least.

[Beaubier]

I'm still waiting for someone to plausibly defend Bruce Wayne as Batman having sex on a rooftop as being in character. I still say the man's too paranoid and just wise in general to do something like that, and someone here has to have a good counter argument.

I don't think there could be one. That scene was ridiculous.

[SiegePerilous02]

Timm's version of Diana isn't my necessarily my favorite but I'll take it over Miller's or the Injustice version.

Ugh, you're right, I forgot about those. At least she mellowed out a bit in Unlimited. We probably have McDuffie to thank for that.

[Frontier]

Timm's version of Diana isn't my necessarily my favorite but I'll take it over Miller's or the Injustice version.

Well, the Injustice version is intentionally meant to be bad...

[Punisher007]

There was a lengthy interview with Mark Hamill before the movie where he talks a little About being casted in Star Wars, and then a lot about how he was cast as Joker, his feelings about the character and his experiences playing him from the beginning until now. It was a really good featurette IMO. He talks a little more in the ending featurette which mostly focused on the animation and the soundtrack and how it was created.

I also feel that people are way overreacting to the prologue. I don't think it really meshed well with the actual story. It felt a little shoe horned in, and the style of the dialogue as opposed to TKJ was way off. You could really tell Alan Moore's style as opposed to Azzarello's. In other words you could tell that it was two different stories glued together in my opinion.

That being said I didn't mind the prologue itself. It wasn't that great but I didn't think it was bad either. And honestly I could buy Babs's attraction to Bruce. They're two people living an exciting vigilante life, and as Bats tells her she's doing it for the thrill, which is evident in her spirit throughout the prologue. She admires him and feels frustrated by him, and he feels protective of her. This culminates in the admittedly silly sex scene. I don't think this prologue was the best use of her character to build her up before the events of TKJ but I don't think it was the worst thing ever like some people are making it out to be. I also didn't feel like Babs's pining for Bruce was the main focus of this prologue but rather her desire to prove herself and show that she can handle herself.

The actual adaptation of TKJ was pretty good IMO. Hamill nailed it as always and he delivered a lot of passion to his role. Conroy and Strong were excellent. The animation did manage to make itself reminiscent of the graphic novel while keeping its own style. The ending felt truncated but it was nice to see Babs become Oracle.

All in all I don't think it was the best Batman animated movie (my favorite might be Bad Blood or Red Hood) but I still liked it a lot and I'm glad I saw it in the theater.

The problem is, you can do that without the sex. You can have her getting shot "fuel" Batman because, he respects her as a colleague and friend. It didn't need to be THIS. This adds nothing to anything that couldn't have been done without it (and been far less typical and cliché in the process). It was done because Timm and Azz wanted to be "controversial," that's all. Azz said as much himself.

Also the whole "she desperate to prove herself" thing feels very uninspired and kind of dull in and of itself. That's the best they got, really?

[Bukdiah]

There was a lengthy interview with Mark Hamill before the movie where he talks a little About being casted in Star Wars, and then a lot about how he was cast as Joker, his feelings about the character and his experiences playing him from the beginning until now. It was a really good featurette IMO. He talks a little more in the ending featurette which mostly focused on the animation and the soundtrack and how it was created.

Thanks for the info! I didn't like the movie as much as I thought I was going to. I watched it feeling quite "meh" at the end, so I probably won't catch it in theaters. The Hamill feature sounds interesting, but I'm not a uber fan of his, so it won't sway me that much.

[Maxpower00044]

The sex wasn't a big deal at all. It wasn't the route I'd go, but I see nothing wrong with two consensual adults making a mistake. Prologue was still unnecessary, but the Internet is definitely overreacting (as usual) to something that made them feel uncomfortable for less than 10 seconds.

[Falcon7]

This is awesome!