Bruce Timm on Origins of 'Risky' Batman-Batgirl Sex Scene in "The Killing Joke"

[Darkspellmaster]

Just to recap the prelude material:

* Babs is a librarian by day and crime fighting Batgirl by night

* Batgirl gets into an argument with her senior (older, more experienced, better fighter, richer, etc) partner, Batman, and attacks him

* During her attack, Batgirl initiates sexual activity with Batman and it's implied they have sex

* Afterwards, Babs is anxious and wants to communicate with Bruce who ignores her

Question for female forum commenters:

What do women and girls think of this portrayal of Barbara Gordon during the first part of the movie?

Interesting? Enjoyable? Likable? Admirable? Exciting? Fun? Daring? Or... what?

I'm not referring to the post-prelude, Batman in general, Joker, voice acting, animations, creative team, etc.

[posted to both the TV/Film and Batman forums since each has a long thread on the TKJ movie]

The usual trying to be cool works from Brian A. pretty much. I find it annoying and blah. There could have been a better way of doing this, a stronger way of showing Babs before the meat of the movie came about. What's interesting is that Bruce is ignoring her, maybe he feels uncomfortable about what happened. That's what I figure.

@numberthirty: Interesting, at a lot of Star Wars places you get the opposite happening. Had someone tell me "Hey did you know Luke is the Joker" during a screening of Star Wars VII.

[Clark_Kent]

If people put as much effort into regular-life things as they do with essay after essay about the evils of fictional character sex (well, let's be honest, the problem is sex in general right? You can admit it), it would be amazing to see what could be accomplished. These are two fictional characters, who both happen to be of legal age to f*** each others brains out if they wish lol One night stands are a thing, they sometimes happen.

Well...to normal people, anyway.

[RegalSin]

Seriously who really cares. I would love to see a "Batman" and "Batman Beyond" bridged series where Batgirl and Batman forfill every sick fan-fantasy they could possible have.

[Babs]

This discussion reached a dead end now. We're going in circles when the main defense against the critics boils down to "The haters are just frustrated puritans who hate sex. They're fictional characters of legal age bla bla bla", and it's pretty clear that these people don't even take the time to actually read the articles and posts people like me have made, to understand that it's not about that at all, but jump straight to conclusions.
It feels like, as happens so much on the internet these days, the proponents of the film are getting sick of people disliking it, and are hard at work to label all the critics and push them into one specific corner to fit their personal narrative in defending the film, instead of just accepting that a lot of people simply don't share their opinion.

[kalorama]

Ignoring that factor, you have to consider, if Bruce is older then her and he's known Jim for years then he would have seen Babs growing up to the age she is at now. We know that Joker showed up when she was six, according to her, and it's assumed that Bruce has been doing this for a longer time then that, and he was 8 when his parents died, and started roughly when he was 20, and the Joker showed up later when Batman was already around, this means that Bruce was around while she was growing up.

I haven't seen the whole movie yet, but I've seen a clip of the scene where she's talking to her father about when the Joker first shows up (just before she opens he door to the Joker) and she does not say "I was six." She says, rather clearly, "I was just a kid." No specific age is assigned. Secondly, in most tellings of Batman's history, his first encounter with the Joker happens after his first year or so following donning the mask.

Going by the most commonly used timeline from the comics, Barbara was in her mid/late-teens when Batman first showed up (and already out of college when she became Batgirl) and Bruce was in his mid-20s when he first put on the cowl (after a decade or so traveling the world, training).

[Daedalus]

If people put as much effort into regular-life things

I like to think I put a considerable effort into regular-life things. Now reading comics and discuss them - that I do on my time off. We all comment here on our time off (at least I hope so)

as they do with essay after essay about the evils of fictional character sex (well, let's be honest, the problem is sex in general right? You can admit it)

It's not about "sex" at all. Barbara could be dating a random 45-year-old guy in the movie and I don't think anybody would bat an eye. Similarly with Bruce Wayne. They could even be more physical than they were, I don't care. The problem I have with the sexual relationship in the movie is which characters are involved in it, and what the decision to include this (which was never present in the source material) does to alter the relationships between many characters around it.

These are two fictional characters, who both happen to be of legal age to f*** each others brains out if they wish lol One night stands are a thing, they sometimes happen.

Indeed. I don't think they would happen between Bruce and Barbara though. Inserting a real-life, anecdotal example: I don't think it will happen between me and my uncle's former spouse who watched me grow since I was a small child either. We are both legal and we could both do it, but I have no interest in it whatsoever (and I really hope he doesn't have any interest in it either).

As I said, there could be a one-night stand with any of these two characters and a multitude of other people. But when they do it together, it changes relationships that are central to what the animated movie is adapting.

[CrimsonEchidna]

If people put as much effort into regular-life things as they do with essay after essay about the evils of fictional character sex (well, let's be honest, the problem is sex in general right? You can admit it), it would be amazing to see what could be accomplished. These are two fictional characters, who both happen to be of legal age to f*** each others brains out if they wish lol One night stands are a thing, they sometimes happen.

Well...to normal people, anyway.

Doesn't that apply to yourself since you're taking part in the discussion?

[MkII]

I saw the movie at SDCC, and that scene is the least of its problems. For me, the movie just didn't gel. For one, it feels like three different movies crammed together, and they don't fit well. Then you've got some characters that look like Bruce Timm designs, and others that don't. For all the fuss they made about the performances, I didn't find them any better or worse than anything we've had before on Batman TAS. The animation itself didn't strike me as being particularly high quality, either. Also, it's about the softest "R" rated film you'll ever see. No need to nitpick details here--it's just not a good movie.

[Babs]

Anyways the movie made over 3m for it's debut night.

Yeah, because who the hell cares about quality of product, when you can make a ton of cash, right? I mean, that's basically what you're saying there. That a cash-grab success that thrives on nothing but the iconic status of the original graphic novel, and the added controversy is still something to celebrate, and a good way to deflect any kind of criticism.
For example, Batman & Robin had a massive opening weekend back in the 90's. Now everyone knows it as one of the worst things to happen to Batman. It was a franchise killer, because Warner Bros. thought they could push out a rushed mediocre product, and that the Bat-brand would sell itself.

Right now, youtube is being flooded with negative reviews that absolutely destroy this adaptation, so when the actual film comes out on DVD and BluRay, then we'll get a better picture. Going by all the reviews, the majority says the film is mediocre at best, but mostly consider it convoluted garbage of which the voice acting performance from Mark Hamill is it's only saving grace.

kNIGHTWING01 will upload his review somewhere today or later this weekend. I'd advise anyone who loved this film and can't handle the criticism to start stocking up on Vaseline, because you're gonna need it.

[brettc1]

The thing I don't understand is... What sex scene? I mean I know it's there on the roof but I swear I've seen more risqué portrayals in episodes of Buffy and that doesn't have an R rating.

That aside, the best way to watch this seems to be start at the point where the comic does and switch off at the point where the comic finishes.

[Jdsm24]

I agree with just because something is legal doesn't make it acceptable.

The reason why it's legal in the first place is because it's acceptable, or at least not unacceptable enough to criminalize, to a majority of the population in the place where it's legal.

If you see someone as a parent to another individual don't write them having sex.

That would wipe out a majority of human literature, especially fanfiction, from existence

That's creepy to me.

Male heterosexuality is creepy to those who are not male heterosexuals

[ByPrimus]

thought not related, in Batman Beyond Return of Joker, it seem Batgirl & Batman have relationship.

the Paris Franz story kinda waste, doesnt need to be detail.

i wish batgirl got nu-de scene, which need more detail.

being Rated R is a joke.