Bruce Timm on Origins of 'Risky' Batman-Batgirl Sex Scene in "The Killing Joke"

[MaxMatrix]

Them making money off is supposed to justify a poorly done story element? People on this very board spend pages s***ting on all types of movies that make more than 3m...so that argument is moot really.

They never should have included the part about her age when the Joker first appears. Because that puts her at least 14yrs (being generous) younger than Bats and definitely adds to the fuel of him being someone in a mentor capacity, thus adding a power differential to their relationship that makes it very hard not to really see Bats as more than just a "bad parent".

[GamerSlyRatchet]

It's them as a duo who created BTAS.

Not even that. Dini was just a staff writer when that show started. It was Timm and Eric Radomski that created it, but the show didn't really take off until Alan Burnett came in as story editor.

Basically, it was a team effort and attributing the success to one person is not recommended.

[numberthirty]

I guess this is going to be another love it or hate it movie with no middle ground. I loved everything about the movie. The theater I was in last night was packed...and as I walked out all I heard were positive things about it.

Sidebar -

I also attended an almost "Full House" screening.

At one point, the fellow sitting next to me fell asleep. For maybe twenty minutes, he was almost sleeping on my shoulder and quietly snoring. The following is a rough version of what happened when he came to.

He looks over at me, and quietly says "Hey, dude. You know Luke Skywalker is the Joker, right?". I said that I was aware.

He leans over, and bumps his friend. He then says "Here. This guys going to tell you. He knows Luke Skywalker is the Joker." I quickly point out that while it's not that simple it is essentially the case.

Looking incredibly puzzled the friend says "Really? Luke Skywalker is the Joker?"

That was an interesting one.

[heyevaxx]

Just to recap the prelude material:

* Babs is a librarian by day and crime fighting Batgirl by night

* Batgirl gets into an argument with her senior (older, more experienced, better fighter, richer, etc) partner, Batman, and attacks him

* During her attack, Batgirl initiates sexual activity with Batman and it's implied they have sex

* Afterwards, Babs is anxious and wants to communicate with Bruce who ignores her

Question for female forum commenters:

What do women and girls think of this portrayal of Barbara Gordon during the first part of the movie?

Interesting? Enjoyable? Likable? Admirable? Exciting? Fun? Daring? Or... what?

I'm not referring to the post-prelude, Batman in general, Joker, voice acting, animations, creative team, etc.

[posted to both the TV/Film and Batman forums since each has a long thread on the TKJ movie]

[devil leonx]

Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy having babies doesn't sound so crazy after this...

No , Batgirl sleeping with batman while odd , it is no where near the level of god awful that Osborn and Gwen Stacy was, its not even in the same spectrum.

[TRS80]

I liked it. They should have released a shorter version of the KJ adaptation and released an extended Batgirl edition. That would have made fans happier. And you can't deny they nailed parts of the book. The character most affected by KJ was Barbara. So it was a good nod to what effect that had in her career.

[devil leonx]

I liked it. They should have released a shorter version of the KJ adaptation and released an extended Batgirl edition. That would have made fans happier. And you can't deny they nailed parts of the book. The character most affected by KJ was Barbara. So it was a good nod to what effect that had in her career.

I think what they should have done is made the Batgirl segment a DC Showcase, much like the Green arrow or the Jonah Hex one.

[devil leonx]

Went to the screening, thought it was pretty good. The added Batgirl buildup and the scene in question were fine. Many seem to have built it up to be something it was not. It was not graphic or salacious. The crowd in my theater seemed to both laugh and cheer when it played out. The joke at the end came across funnier on screen than when I've read it on the page. That could be my own failing in how I've read it though. Loved the post-credits (well mid credits) scene.

While I do think people are making a bigger deal out of it then it is, I would agree that perhaps it could have been done a little better, i kind of would have preferred batgirl beats the hell out of Batman and then Batman just hugs her and says something like your a sister to me and I dont ever want you going near the edge of the Abyss or something like that.

[Vworp Vworp]

I liked it. They should have released a shorter version of the KJ adaptation and released an extended Batgirl edition. That would have made fans happier.

Would it? I haven't seen it, but from what I've read in a couple of reviews/article such as this one;

Director Sam Liu and writer Brian Azzarello have added a half hour of new story on to the beginning of the narrative, in which they methodically turn Batgirl into a clumsy agglomeration of misogynist tropes.

And here;

The filmmakers have concocted a narrative which turns Barbara Gordon into a hormone-driven incompetent, a young woman who basically chooses to be Batgirl to get closer to Batman. The story pits her against a young misogynistic mobster, yet Gordon is constantly undone, emotionally and physically by this two-bit villain. She is distracted by his advances, emotionally manipulated by his charms, and constantly requires help or guidance from the man in her life.

And another;

The most egregious error of all, however, is in how the movie treated Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl. It reduced her to nothing more than motivation for Batman, and removed whatever power she had going into the movie. She’s presented as if she were a teenager, a lovelorn girl who can only think about Batman

I can't imagine there'd be many fans who'd want to watch a longer version of that.

[Flyattractor]

I can't imagine there'd be many fans who'd want to watch a longer version of that.

Oh I bet there are......

[TRS80]

Just watch it first. Those comments sound like a bunch of pissed off purists that are mad they added anything at all. If anything it was Alan Moore who made her a sidenote in the story. This adaptation added more depth to her character and showed how strong she is as a person, even though she is, like all of us, fallible. So no I dont think we saw the same thing.

[Hypestyle]

Just saying.. ethically this would have been better with Babs and Nightwing. So is this considered to be part of the Batman Beyond continuity now?

[Vworp Vworp]

Just watch it first. Those comments sound like a bunch of pissed off purists that are mad they added anything at all. If anything it was Alan Moore who made her a sidenote in the story. This adaptation added more depth to her character and showed how strong she is as a person, even though she is, like all of us, fallible. So no I dont think we saw the same thing.

None of those articles, nor any of the numerous others I've read that cover the same points, seem to be from people that have any especially strong connection with TKJ. It's simply their opinion on how the new material presents Babs.

Now if you interpreted the events of the story differently, that's fine. But at the moment, you would seem to be in the minority.

[Ceebiro]

Going by the movie where the word partner is repeatedly used. You can watch the movie and not assign your own bias to make it seem creepier than it is. You're right. It isn't up for debate, based on the film being talked about and the context of the relationship shown therein. So, I'm not pretending to change jack. The word "partner" is assigned to their relationship, not "student." In the film.

Yet Barbara refers to her relationship with Bruce to her friend as a teacher/student relationship. She even exclaims that she's the best damned student he ever had.

She's his student who wants to be seen as an equal partner, rather than a lesser.

[Daedalus]

Count me in the "heavily disappointed/no longer buying" camp.

Let me say, first of all, that I have no problem with the original Killing Joke. Yes, Barbara is a plot point in the graphic novel, and her crippling fuels a story that actually revolves on the Joker, Batman, and Jim Gordon - but this is serialized fiction, told by the point of view of multiple characters, and this happens more often than not. Batman himself becomes something of a prop in Year One, for example, to serve Gordon's character. I do realize that Batman still retains quite a bit of agency in the story (contrary to Barbara in The Killing Joke), but it does not bother me much, perhaps due to the excellent stories that followed The Killing Joke focusing specifically on Barbara. Perhaps I have a bias that needs correcting, I don't know. All I know is that I'm fine with it. But this is a whole other matter.

Introducing a sexual undertone to Batman and Batgirl's relationship is not simply two consenting adults having sex: it's changing dynamics in the entire Bat-family. Let's start with Jim. Jim Gordon is Batman's best friend, his partner and confidant, and one of his most trusted allies. There are a number of poignant scenes that depict their relationship perfectly, but "No Man's Land"'s unmasking is probably my favorite: whether you interpret it as him knowing Batman's identity all along or not, the point remains clear - Jim Gordon knows Batman only as Batman, and his (incredibly close) relationship with him is untainted by Bruce Wayne, and so he understands him in a way Alfred, Dick and the rest of the family could never see. Despite his portrayal in the Adam West TV-show (which Timm seems to inexplicably draw from as canon) and in the Burton movies as ineffectual, he has been consistently portrayed since the 80s as Batman's equal, which is why the dynamic works. Batman has no other immediate equals in the Bat-family: Dick, Jason, Tim and the rest of the sidekicks are his "children", and Alfred is a father figure, and so they are either below or above him. Not Jim. Now after 20 years of working together, Batman would allow this version of his best friend's daughter (who by Word of God is attracted to the violence Batman represents) to sleep with him? And then not give her any attention at all? A girl he has seen grow up (and possibly her birth)? Suddenly there's this bizarre secret looming between the three of them, which makes Batman look like a jerk and Jim Gordon looks like (a) a blind fool for not seeing it, (b) a horrible parent for not getting this version of Barbara the help she needed. She almost attacked a random guy by projecting her problems with Batman on him, for God's sake! Does that sound like the Barbara Gordon you read on the pages? Forgive my rambling. I talk a lot about Jim Gordon because the Killing Joke is a good deal about him, although his part is small. He is the one the Joker is trying to break. Batman questions everyone in town so quickly and agressively because he is worried that the Joker would break his friend's mind and lead Jim to insanity. But the Joker is proven wrong, and Jim Gordon overcomes all the hatred he feels from the freak's shooting of his daughter to rise still the righteous man that practices what he preaches. Now the ending is about Batman agressively seeking revenge for the paralyzing of his sidekick-with-benefits.

Then there's Dick, who has long been Barbara Gordon's most longstanding love-interest. Their relationship is such a strong part of the Batman mythology that DC even gave them a Happily-Ever-After of sorts during Convergence, which I think was warranted. Granted, their relationship had not yet been solidified when The Killing Joke was first released, but then it was retroactively interjected into the beginning of both of their careers (Batgirl Year One even deals with this briefly, if I'm not mistaken), which means that by this point, Bruce is already well aware that his adopted son has developed an interest in this girl. Now, Bruce Wayne is not a normal guy, and he does suffer from psychological problems. But aside a few mistakes, in Pre-Flashpoint continuity he has always been portrayed as a caring parent, not only to Dick but to Tim, Damian, Cass, Barbara, etc. Even Jason has had some touching moments (and hugs) with Bruce since he returned from the dead and became the Red Hood. Batman repeatedly steps in and acts thinking on his proteges 'best interests, even if the consequences are often not what he had anticipated. I know this is not something that Bruce Timm likes to insert into his cartoons, but it has been picked up by almost everybody else in that industry (Brandon Vietti in Red Hood, Greg Weisman in YJ, and even the original Teen Titans had a throwaway line about Batman's "good" parenting). This is not to say that Bruce and Dick haven't had some discussions, they have. Like every father and son. But their realtionship remains solid and trusting (the recent Grayson run by King and Seeley has some great scenes in that regard). That Bruce would completely disregard Dick's feelings for Barbara is something quite out of character.

Even Alfred, who has nothing at all to do with this scene, comes into play: I honestly think he would interfere. He has interfered - and lectured - Bruce many times before (though not in such a R-rated situation), and his primary occupation in the comics is to keep the Batfamily well and running. His heart-to-hearts with every single member, from Bruce to Dick to Damian, are the essence of his character and the glue that makes this half a dozen of vigilantes dressed as bats into a family. That he would see Barbara Gordon's infatuation and stalking of Bruce and not say a word - even to prevent Bruce from ruining his two-decade relationship with her father - is also bizarre.

It's also worth noting that this scene does not exist in a vacuum: it is the centerpiece of the whole prologue they've invented. If Barbara wasn't sexualized before, well she sure is now. There's a deliberate buttshot in the movie, and all she talks about with her librarian friend is how hot Batman is. Her motivation for becoming Batgirl is no longer that of a girl who (like her father) admired what Batman did for the city, it is that of a girl who was attracted to a man 20 years her senior dressed in a batsuit, and so she dresses as a bat as well to get his attention (high heels? seriously?), and then gets frustrated that he does not return her phonecalls. Just typing this is very bizarre: I can't imagine comicverse Barbara doing any of what I just wrote in this paragraph.

Bruce Timm is undoubtedly fascinated by this (non-existent) pairing, and I don't really know why. It is a pity though, because a prologue could really enhance the movie. The comic works because of prior knowledge of these characters: we know the Joker and Batman have been fighting since forever, we know that Gordon is level-headed and always does what's right, and we know that Barbara was Batgirl and what the Joker robs her off. We could have seen her in action but also seen her relationship with her father, Jim's relationship with Batman, and all that's setup for what comes next. They could even have put Dick in the story (either present in Gotham or away), if they wanted, there was time for it (although that may overcomplicate the story). Instead they chose this. Most puzzling indeed. If anything, I hope the reaction Timm's getting scares him away from this pairing for good.