Bruce Timm on Origins of 'Risky' Batman-Batgirl Sex Scene in "The Killing Joke"

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Yeah, I think this is pretty disgusting. In addition to all the weird pseudo-incestuous themes Timm threw in there about parental figures, it just seems like it's using Barbara as an object for Batman to avenge when Joker cripples her.

Definitely not watching this one.

[Joker]

it just seems like it's using Barbara as an object for Batman to avenge when Joker cripples her.

That is exactly what it is. Sadly.

[mathew101281]

I think their is a certain type of superhero creator, that is struggling with the fact that females are becoming a larger part of the Superhero fandom. Stuff that played well in the era when comic book fans were overwhelmingly male no longer play well in the new fan base. People are looking for female characters that are self determined, It's not enough that a character have the trappings of being physically strong. Every time an issue of how a female character is portrayed comes up it pretty much boils down to "would you be comfortable selling this to a female fan?" That is what has changed the attitude about the quality about the killing Joke more then anything else.

[Badou]

So ... just trying to look at it from Timm's view here (I'm not a fan of them together or this scene happening in the movie) ...

Could this maybe be set in the Timmverse? And this is part of setting up the Batman Beyond storyline? Just spit-balling here ...

I think it would be more likely to have this movie be set in DC's new animated universe that sort of started with Justice League War and continued with all those Damian movies. They are all supposed to be set in the same universe. So maybe this is how TKJ happened in that universe?

[shades of eternity]

I consider the dcau one of the greatest versions of the dc universe, but bruce timms fascination with batman and batgirl always came off seriously creepy, and makes bruce seem like an incredibly loathsome human being in the process (one part jailbait, one part betrayal of his "son").

to quote another poster on another forum

"She's the ex girlfriend of Bruce's adopted son AND the daughter of one of Batman' best friends. He's going to a special Hell for that."

[Punisher007]

No I don't think that it's set in the Timmverse. He's just taking an idea that he had had in that continuity, and doing it again here.

[nightw1ng]

I've seen the film, and one of my problems (besides what everyone else is saying) is that the addition of the Batgirl story just wasn't handled well. The dialogue, tone, and flow of the first half of the film (which is the Batgirl prologue about her obsession with Batman and catching mobster Paris Franz) is very different than the second half (which is the adaptation of The Killing Joke). It basically 2 separate stories that barely connect together, especially since Barbara doesn't do anything in The Killing Joke other then get crippled and victimized by the Joker. It's jarring when you switch narrators and stories halfway through a movie.

[joybeans]

The Batman and Batgirl stuff was a big part of Bruce Timm's verse,

It actually wasn't. It was alluded to a couple of times in Batman Beyond as having happened offscreen years after TNBA, but no light was shed on the details. During The New Batman Adventures, they were strictly mentor and pupil. Bruce dated his share of women, and Barbara was still having spats with Dick.

and in Batman Beyond's comic continuation there was even a love triangle thing between Bruce, Barbara and Nightwing, which ended when Barbara got pregnant with Bruce's child and lost the baby, causing Nightwing to leave the team.

I really wish i was making that up.

Found most of the relevant Batman Beyond stuff if you're curious/masochistic enough to have your childhood destroyed.

http://forums.comicshaven.net/index....man-beyond-20/

Bruce Timm had nothing to do with that. That was all Kyle Higgins, who wanted to demonize the relationship further, and have a controversial moment of his own.

[solletaire]

I've seen the film, and one of my problems (besides what everyone else is saying) is that the addition of the Batgirl story just wasn't handled well. The dialogue, tone, and flow of the first half of the film (which is the Batgirl prologue about her obsession with Batman and catching mobster Paris Franz) is very different than the second half (which is the adaptation of The Killing Joke). It basically 2 separate stories that barely connect together, especially since Barbara doesn't do anything in The Killing Joke other then get crippled and victimized by the Joker. It's jarring when you switch narrators and stories halfway through a movie.

A plausible explanation is that if the Batgirl prologue was not in the story a lot of people would have a problem with Barbara's story arc in the Killing Joke proper aka she gets crippled and victimized by the Joker and that's pretty much it.

The reason the prologue doesn't work is because the Killing Joke as a story was never about Barbara. Even though this is a defining story for the character i.e. her life changes after it, Batgirl kind of feels like she's incidental to the plot, imo. It's weird really.

That is why I would appreciate it if WB and DC Comics would move on. A lot of folks go to great lengths to defend this story which they are more than welcome to do. As for me, it's not that great of a story and does not deserve a movie, imo.

[PeteAmend]

I consider the dcau one of the greatest versions of the dc universe, but bruce timms fascination with batman and batgirl always came off seriously creepy, and makes bruce seem like an incredibly loathsome human being in the process (one part jailbait, one part betrayal of his "son").

to quote another poster on another forum

"She's the ex girlfriend of Bruce's adopted son AND the daughter of one of Batman' best friends. He's going to a special Hell for that."

Just wait until the Damian Wayne / Barbara Gordon "team up". It will make family get togethers VERY awkward. I still remember "The Batman" (2004) where Robin, Batgirl and Poison Ivy were just little kids. Catwoman is going to be so jealous. Still, Timm has yet to do a 3 way so give it time. Let's see, the live action movie got a PG-13 but the cartoon gets an R. Won't those parents be surprised when they decide to get their little kid the cartoon rather than the "mature" live action. Cannot wait for Timm's RR rated "Death in the Family". Parents preorder now (Do not let them know of the Joker/Batgirl sex scene.. it would ruin the joke).

This sort of reminds me of the Gotham take on relationships. Bruce Wayne and Selena Kyle have been friends so far but Bruce never ventured towards the 14 year old Poison Ivy since he was about 16. To bypass the awkward part, they have replaced Poison Ivy with a 19 year old seductress to seduce young Bruce. In reality, the character is still 14 years old but is now played by an older actress. All better now? Now we have a 14 year old girl that looks 19 seducing a 16 year old. I am sure that won't get awkward or uncomfortable. They should have Batgirl born next season so she is on her way to her sex scene with Batman in The Killing Joke (As far as we know, Barbara Gordon has not even been born yet and we already have a 16 year old Batman).

[Drew Melbourne]

If they were going to add to KILLING JOKE and they were worried about how Barbara comes off in the original, clearly the answer is to add the second story AFTER, and have Barbara become Oracle.

[lalalei2001]

The Adventures of Batman and Robin episode "Batgirl Returns" had an opening where Barbara fantasizes fighting crime on a rooftop before Batman arrives and they start making out.

[PeteAmend]

I consider the dcau one of the greatest versions of the dc universe, but bruce timms fascination with batman and batgirl always came off seriously creepy, and makes bruce seem like an incredibly loathsome human being in the process (one part jailbait, one part betrayal of his "son").

to quote another poster on another forum

"She's the ex girlfriend of Bruce's adopted son AND the daughter of one of Batman' best friends. He's going to a special Hell for that."

Good news. Bruce will be sleeping with Starfire and Spoiler next. There will soon be a very jealous Dick. I do not see Dick introducing Bruce to any of his other girlfriends after this.

He is definitely not the best father figure out there. Did Jason, Tim or Damian have any girlfriends for Bruce to sleep with? Just checking.

[Babs]

Bruce Timm has fallen very far from grace with this action in my book. I accepted this nonsense in the DCAU because it's basically his version of the DCU, but this is not the DCAU, this was someone else's graphic novel. This was Alan Moore's DCU, and now it's poisoned with Timm's sexual fantasies.

"I don't remember who initially came up with the idea"

....

iWKad22.jpg


Sure you don't. Mr. Timm, sure you don't.

BatgirlCameronStewart.jpg

Jeez... What a bad joke. Seriously, it's not even funny.

There was a time when i was a DCAU fan only, and didn't know anything about the comics. Personally now, i thank heaven for people like Gail Simone, Cameron Stewart, Brenden Fletcher, and Hope Larson. People who, maybe in their own way, but treat the character of Barbara Gordon with a certain amount respect, and acknowledge that this character is an icon for a young female audience.
I just introduced my 3 year-old niece to Batgirl through Super Best Friends Forever shorts, and WB recently made her one of the leading characters in a cartoon show made specifically for young girls. How the hell did Warner Bros even allow them to put this into the Killing Joke cartoon without thinking about the character as a damn role model to young girls??

"his 'parental skills' aren't that great"


...nope. nope nope nope nope NOPE!

...I have no words for how god awful ridiculous this is. This is so stupid it actually makes my blood boil. I need to get off the subject before i punch someone.

Mr. Timm if you're reading this, i hope you're happy with yourself. I feel legit sad and disgusted by what you have done. You crossed a line for me and i hope it was worth it for you. Please consider retirement from DC animation.

[BeastieRunner]

So maybe this is how TKJ happened in that universe?

That makes sense actually.