Thoughts on The Killing Joke movie

[Babs]

The first 30 minutes is necessary if only to establish Batgirl as a character.

...and that's the entire problem with the prologue. Because it actually doesn't deliver on that at all. This was Batgirl/Barbara Gordon in name only. Call it "Bruce Timm's vision" but for newcomers, to put it boldy: In this film it seems more like "Batgirl" was a tool that was invented by Commissioner Gordon's daughter to get close to her schoolgirl crush, the Batman. Once she finally got her dream stud to copulate with her, the reason for "Batgirl" seized to exist.
I know that's probably not the writer's intent, but when you take this prologue as a "Batgirl for dummies", that's pretty much what it boils down to.
This does not maker Barbara in any way a stronger or better understood character in the media. This was not Barbara Gordon. This was not Batgirl. This was a Bruce Timm fantasy character. If they wanted to make any serious kind of attempt to introduce a fresh audience to the character, the first thing they should have done is have a meeting with Scott Beatty, Chuck Dixon, and Gail Simone. In-fact, Gail Simone should really have been a ful blown consultant on this entire prologue project, since she's had the most experience writing Barbara Gordon.

[Punisher007]

And they don't even follow up on it. You COULD have had her quit being Batgirl, for better reasons, and then worked that into TKJ. She gets shot by the Joker, and she sees that as proof that "Gotham won't let me walk away" and that she needs to fight back. Which sets up her ending.

Also the prologue makes her look, so small. The villain isn't interesting, his motivation are incredibly cliché, and the idea that he could manipulate/trick Barbara Gordon is not at all believable. And yeah they tacked on a "she saves Batman" moment, but it's not nearly enough. And ultimately, she does more or less what Batman wanted her to do anyway by the end, so it undercuts her there to.

It makes her WEAKER as a character, not stronger.

[Flyattractor]

....I have to agree with Mr. J.

[Babs]

...I have to agree with kNIGHTWING01

[ispacehead]

...and that's the entire problem with the prologue. Because it actually doesn't deliver on that at all. This was Batgirl/Barbara Gordon in name only. Call it "Bruce Timm's vision" but for newcomers, to put it boldy: In this film it seems more like "Batgirl" was a tool that was invented by Commissioner Gordon's daughter to get close to her schoolgirl crush, the Batman. Once she finally got her dream stud to copulate with her, the reason for "Batgirl" seized to exist.
I know that's probably not the writer's intent, but when you take this prologue as a "Batgirl for dummies", that's pretty much what it boils down to.
This does not maker Barbara in any way a stronger or better understood character in the media. This was not Barbara Gordon. This was not Batgirl. This was a Bruce Timm fantasy character. If they wanted to make any serious kind of attempt to introduce a fresh audience to the character, the first thing they should have done is have a meeting with Scott Beatty, Chuck Dixon, and Gail Simone. In-fact, Gail Simone should really have been a ful blown consultant on this entire prologue project, since she's had the most experience writing Barbara Gordon.

It may not be *your* ideal portrayal of the character, but everything about it fits with what has been presented in BTAS/Beyond.

She didn't quit because she couldn't handle sleeping with him, she quit because she knew HE couldn't, and that it would likely get him killed thinking too much about her.

She was actually the one making the more responsible, adult decision, as always. Total Babs.

Might not fit with what you want, but Timm knows well enough what he's doing without outside consultation.

[Lhynn]

Yeah, batman has always had a problem after sleeping with some chick. Its not like hes obsessed with anything else but some brat. its not like his whole character revolves around a childhood trauma that consumes him. Hes got plenty of time to fall for girl #54.
Movie was garbage and didnt do any favors to any of the characters involved.

[godisawesome]

It may not be *your* ideal portrayal of the character, but everything about it fits with what has been presented in BTAS/Beyond.

She didn't quit because she couldn't handle sleeping with him, she quit because she knew HE couldn't, and that it would likely get him killed thinking too much about her.

She was actually the one making the more responsible, adult decision, as always. Total Babs.

Might not fit with what you want, but Timm knows well enough what he's doing without outside consultation.

Id say it's questionable that this Babs is accurate to the BTAS and BTNAS variation of the character, even taking into account Batman Beyond and that last BTAS film making Bruce/Babs thing canonical to that show. BTAS Babs was portrayed as experienced and competent for multiple years before the relationship, which was also implicitly portrayed as a quiet affair that was, for all intents and purposes, not an impulsive kinky hook-up on top of a building.

And in almost all continuities, Babs would have laughed at any problem created by a two bit hood with a cheesy name. This is a woman who's initial opponent was Killer Moth back when he was portrayed as an actual Anti-Batman, who's worked her way through most of Batman's rogues gallery and we're supposed to think a glorified pervert is too much for her too handle?

And I'd say it's pretty clear that even if you can argue this Babs has some basis in previous incarnations, she seems to be a regressive and distilled portrayal of the weaker interpretations of the character, the kind of Batgirl who Oracle was clearly more badass than, which only exacebates the problem Babs fans have with the story.

By the way, I'd love to see someone create an effective argument as to how having sex on a roof, literally exposing yourself and your identity, on what seems to be a lark is ever in character for Batman or Batgirl, since such paranoid superheroes seem almost by definition averse to such, well, rash stupidity. I mean, that's the kind of think that would normally make even a badly written Daredevil or Green Arrow go "wait, wait a minute, I have a car, and an apartment, and literally any place else would be appropriate for this."

[joybeans]

This version of Batgirl probably has more in common with the original Batwoman Kathy Kane, actually.

[phonogram12]

Given all the controversy about the prologue and the sex scene that was a part of it, I actually had very little problem with it. Given that it takes a graduate degree to be a librarian these days, she had to've been at least 24 and Bruce has rarely ever been portrayed past his late 30s. Two consenting adults who made a mistake. Pretty much happens all the time. As for any possible relationship she may have had with Dick, given that this seems to be entirely set in it's own universe, who knows if a relationship with him ever existed?

It was the actual adaptation that I found rather disturbing. The OGN has been and will likely be one of my all-time favorites, but seeing it recreated so faithfully in animation was something I could have lived without. While I never got the feeling from the OGN, watching it was kind of like watching a film by Gasper Noe or Lars Von Trier, two European directors I believe who pretty much make it their business to make films that are incredibly difficult to watch, yet equally difficult to turn away from at the same time. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I got a chance to watch it, but I really have no real desire to sit through it ever again.

[oasis1313]

I wouldn't take my kids or grand-kids to see it.

[Frontier]

This version of Batgirl probably has more in common with the original Batwoman Kathy Kane, actually.

I honestly thought she resembled early Huntress more, what with being portrayed as a violent and aggressive vigilante looking for Batman's approval and respect, though I guess when you factor in the romantic interest, I can see where the Kathy comparison can come from.

[godisawesome]

Given all the controversy about the prologue and the sex scene that was a part of it, I actually had very little problem with it. Given that it takes a graduate degree to be a librarian these days, she had to've been at least 24 and Bruce has rarely ever been portrayed past his late 30s. Two consenting adults who made a mistake. Pretty much happens all the time. As for any possible relationship she may have had with Dick, given that this seems to be entirely set in it's own universe, who knows if a relationship with him ever existed?

It was the actual adaptation that I found rather disturbing. The OGN has been and will likely be one of my all-time favorites, but seeing it recreated so faithfully in animation was something I could have lived without. While I never got the feeling from the OGN, watching it was kind of like watching a film by Gasper Noe or Lars Von Trier, two European directors I believe who pretty much make it their business to make films that are incredibly difficult to watch, yet equally difficult to turn away from at the same time. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I got a chance to watch it, but I really have no real desire to sit through it ever again.

I can understand the logic of that statement as it applies to the broad idea of a Bruce and Babs pairing; they're fictional characters after all, and I can't help it if certain creators have horrible ideas about how their stories should progress.

But even then, most consenting adults, when they make a mistake, don't make it after fistfight, on a rooftop, in public, when they're masked vigilantes!

I could maybe see a scene like that, as sleazy, exploitive, and moronic as it is, if a story showcased how two adventurers were either already that seriously, heavily, brain-dead flawed (in which case you're losing some of the punch of having the familiar Batman and Batgirl in a story that's ostensibly employing familiar variations of the characters) or if it dedicated serous character development time to showcase why this was the case. But this Batgirl seems to only have an infatuation; BTAS Batgirl had several years of working alongside Bruce, and even then was portrayed as not being a Bond-girl style sexpot.

This film's sex scene, at least in the unimaginative banality of its execution, doesn't really exist for character work. It exists because they had an R-rating and though t an edgy thing to do would be to have Batgirl jump alpha-male Batman 'cause he's just that manly.

[regg215]

While I can see where this movie would make people angry, I really don't see why it is getting so much backlash. The killing joke was always going to be tough adaptation because of what happens to Babs. The book is shocking even after all this time and it is tough to portray that particular story in any way without making some people angry. I thought the first 30 minutes were really necessary for the story, if only to make the viewer care about Babs, if the story had just started with he being shot it really doesn't give the viewer any reason to care. While Babs was shown as inexperienced, I did like that both her and Bruce were shown as flawed human beings and not perfect people who never make mistakes.

Bruce was clearly distracted after what happened on the roof and I think how he handled the aftermath of that was consistent with his character. Bruce is all about self control and making all his relationships fit in a certain context, after what happened with Babs that complicates it for him and he shuts her out, which is seemingly consistent with Batman's character.

I don't think Babs came off all that badly, they gave her some cool scenes. She even bails Bruce out at the docks when he is bleeding and can barely move. And while she does almost beat Franz to death, she stops of her own will not because Bruce makes her. Bruce has similarly beat people like that in multiple adaptations. I think her quitting after that was a result of not wanting to be closed off like Bruce, not because she couldn't handle the aftermath of what happened between them. The quick unneeded opening shot of the jogging scene was really the only complaint I had with how they handled Babs. While she did make mistakes it's not like she was the only one who messed up. I mean Batman a guy who handles supercriminals on a regular basis almost gets taken out by a normal gangster with a rocket launcher because he is distracted by what happened with Barb. I think the story presented her as a regular flawed human being and did the same with Bruce. In my opinion a lot of people were really upset about the Babs and Bruce scene and didn't want to give the rest of the movie a chance as a result.

Overall while this movie could have been better but I really did think it was a good adaptation that added some interesting elements to the story, which I thought was kind of unique. I completely understand where people could be upset but I think this was a good movie overall.

[Darkspellmaster]

While I can see where this movie would make people angry, I really don't see why it is getting so much backlash. The killing joke was always going to be tough adaptation because of what happens to Babs. The book is shocking even after all this time and it is tough to portray that particular story in any way without making some people angry. I thought the first 30 minutes were really necessary for the story, if only to make the viewer care about Babs, if the story had just started with he being shot it really doesn't give the viewer any reason to care. While Babs was shown as inexperienced, I did like that both her and Bruce were shown as flawed human beings and not perfect people who never make mistakes.

Here's the thing, the reason for the first 30 minutes was to make it a full movie, which is fine. The issues come down to three things:

1. The reason for the story itself is to make it "Controversal" even more then the main killing Joke story. This from the screen author himself. That right there means that they were trying to get under peoples skins on purpose, and that is partly why people are upset. To tell a story and make it that way for the sake of making fans upset or to get them talking is a rather poor excuse when writing a story. Barbra's story at the start needed to tell about her connection to her father and her friendship with Batman. He went after the Joker because of what he did to Babs but also what the Joker did to another family. It wasn't just about hurting Batman, what hit him was the fact that it wrecked another family the same way his was wrecked.

2. The plot of the story doesn't really add anything to the Joker's tale. There's a disconnect almost there, where it should have showed something to mirror the second half. Probably through Babs and Jim's relationship over her and Batman's. Bruce is only a portion of the tale the more important aspects are Jim and Babs and their relationship from the start to the end of this story. They should have focused on that, over everything else.

3. The sex scene comes out of no where and pretty much harkens back to Asbar's sex scene with Canary and the strange one at the start of nu52 with Catwoman. Both of whom were called out for being just plain dumb. To make matter's worse for this scene, it's pretty much nearly a mirror of those two. Batman's hands and the fact that she doesn't take off his mask is very much like the whole moment with Canary on the burning dock. Then there's the whole Catwoman dominating Batman on the roof. Some call back. Both she and Babs take batman after a fight, and on a roof. I swear someone saw the issue and just said, "Hey let's just take that scene and do it in the movie."

[ispacehead]

Id say it's questionable that this Babs is accurate to the BTAS and BTNAS variation of the character, even taking into account Batman Beyond and that last BTAS film making Bruce/Babs thing canonical to that show. BTAS Babs was portrayed as experienced and competent for multiple years before the relationship, which was also implicitly portrayed as a quiet affair that was, for all intents and purposes, not an impulsive kinky hook-up on top of a building.

Their relationship is only alluded to in Beyond. The way Barbara describes it, this doesn't seem at all unlikely.

Barbara decides to continue to fight for justice as a law enforcement agent, and later as police commissioner.

By the way, I'd love to see someone create an effective argument as to how having sex on a roof, literally exposing yourself and your identity, on what seems to be a lark is ever in character for Batman or Batgirl,

Once again, the way it is alluded to in Beyond doesn't romanticize it as an ongoing affair to my recollection. Barbara and Bruce are standoffish and weird as if there is still something unsettled between them after so long.

Totally fits.

As far as having sex on a lark, hmmm.... sounds like something that might happen to real people in real life.

They may be 'super heroes' but they are also supposed to be human.