Thoughts on The Killing Joke movie

[bat39]

So I watched the movie for real (as opposed to just reading reviews and articles about the controversy) and I have to say that there's a cautionary tale there somewhere about not judging a work one hasn't actually consumed based on reports and rumors.

When I heard about the 'controversial' Batman/Batgirl scene, I too thought it may well ruin the film given that it seemed to be there just for shock value and as to pander to the few fans of a rather controversial 'ship'. The Internet exploded with reports about how Batgirl was objectified, how Batman was a dirty old man sleeping with someone who's a 'daughter' to him, how Bruce and Babs are breaking Dick's trust etc.

But having actually seen the scene in question, and that too in the context of the larger narrative of the first 30 or so minutes of the entire film...I have to say, that IF there could ever be a way to show Bruce and Barbara getting it on that WASN'T nausea-inducing on some level, then this film managed to accomplish it.

In a sense, I felt that sex scene wasn't anything to do with 'shipping' or 'romance' at all. Rather it had more to do with the nature of Batman and Batgirl's partnership, both personally and professionally - something which has been dealt with in various stories for years, and which has now been taken to one extreme conclusion. Batgirl looked up to Batman, was inspired by him, and wanted to do good in the world by emulating him. She got drawn into his orbit, emotionally. She wanted to be respected by him as an equal. But he refused to treat her as such. And then tension mounted and for a brief moment, Barbara's emotional and intellectual attraction to the Batman reached a flashpoint and became a sexual one (and perhaps the same can be said for Bruce). And 'it' happened.

And to the credit of both characters, neither of them were too happy about it. Bruce in particular. All the arguments we see online about Bruce taking advantage of Barbara...well, he didn't really take advantage of her but you can tell that Bruce certainly feels he might have done just that, which is why he tries to avoid Barbara and keep her at arm's length.

Granted, I do feel that the first half-hour or so ought to have perhaps belonged to another film, since it has very little to do with the actual 'Killing Joke' story beyond fleshing out the story's prime victim. Though I suppose there is a 'Psycho'-like feel to the structure - following a protagonist who, some time into the film, becomes the victim and we then switch to the 'real' (or rather next) protagonist.

The rest of the film is brilliant. The flashbacks were especially well done. The soundtrack does a great job building the atmosphere. There's a great film noir vibe throughout and a horror movie vibe once we get to the circus.

The ending in particular is a masterstroke. Batman randomly laughing to Joker's joke was something I never really 'got' with the original story but the adaptation really 'sold' that for me. In fact, that ominous last shot really made me remember Grant Morrison's theory about Batman killing the Joker...

On the whole, it was a great film. Maybe not THE best Batman animated film, but close enough (certainly more than a cut above the 'New 52' outings).

[Ceebiro]

Granted, I do feel that the first half-hour or so ought to have perhaps belonged to another film, since it has very little to do with the actual 'Killing Joke' story beyond fleshing out the story's prime victim. Though I suppose there is a 'Psycho'-like feel to the structure - following a protagonist who, some time into the film, becomes the victim and we then switch to the 'real' (or rather next) protagonist.

This is the problem I also had with the prologue and even the epilogue. It basically sets up a story that DC/WB Animation is unlikely to ever address in the near future, which is unfortunate because I think they created a solid Batgirl/BOP lead-in film with those pieces. I also think they created a pretty interesting foil with Paris Franc.

The controversial sex scene wasn't a big deal, and I understand what the filmmakers were going for considering the argument that had taken place with Barbara and Bruce. That said, I still think it was unnecessary. Barbara coming in to save Bruce and take down Paris should have been enough to prove to him that she should have been considered his equal, while also proving him right in his warning to her.

As for the film itself, I didn't always feel like the score fit in some scenes. I didn't care that much for the flashbacks, which were particularly impacted by the limited animation budget. I wish WB had not skimped on the budget, although I understand that these films do not bring in a lot of money and may not be worth a significant financial investment. I wish they had pushed for a bolder art style, there were only two instances that stood out to me as truly impressive. Outside of Barbara, Bruce and Joker, I didn't really care for the voice direction. Everyone else was serviceable at best. The flashbacks suffered the most here as well.

All in all, it was a solid film and a better product than pretty much any movie post-McDuffie.

[Beaubier]

I agree, that's how I interpreted the Bruce/Barbara relationship as well. Really though you're right in that it felt like it belonged to a different movie. Tonally, as well as the dialogue style, it didn't really fit with TKJ at all. Though I did enjoy the Paris Franc story.

[ispacehead]

Granted, I do feel that the first half-hour or so ought to have perhaps belonged to another film, since it has very little to do with the actual 'Killing Joke' story beyond fleshing out the story's prime victim. Though I suppose there is a 'Psycho'-like feel to the structure - following a protagonist who, some time into the film, becomes the victim and we then switch to the 'real' (or rather next) protagonist.

I enjoyed the movie as well.

I thought the prologue served it's purpose nicely, establishing Barbara as a girl no longer, but a very capable woman.

Beyond just being necessary in establishing Barbara and explaining why she stopped being Batgirl, it would have been a really short movie if they stuck to what was in the book only.

I thought they did a nice job without sacrificing the serious tone of the book or the ambiguity of those two oft discussed scenes.

Nice to have Tara back as Batgirl. Kevin sounded great as always. Mark Hamill did sound a bit old, most particularly in the flashbacks, but still a great performance.

[SicariiDC]

I didn't like it.

[Quiet Raven]

I loved it. Original story was great, movie was even better.

The beginning with Batgirl helped it to be a stand alone story for people who don't read the comics much or at all. You get to know Barbara a little bit before she gets shot, and you feel more for the character. The added scenes with her in the hospital also really help for this.

This was a major flaw with the original comic. You see her get shot, and get shown to her father afterward. That's it. She was literally only used as an object to make Jim's day terrible. It doesn't want you to care about what happened to Barbara. Yeah, this was Joker's plan, that's fine. But it wasn't just that, the author treated her as an object just as much. However, this was not the case in the movie. And that's why I like it more.

As for the sex scene... I thought it was pretty strange. Unnecessary, but it didn't make the movie worse. I don't really care. I find the complaints about her being "objectified" by it silly considering what I said above though, lol.

[joybeans]

The writing simply was not very good. It seemed like the prologue had an character arc laid out to show Barbara getting caught too deeply entrenched in the crimefighting life when she gets targeted by Franz (who was a bit too much of a cliched straw man villain), and then stepping down before she goes off the deep end. But all of that gets derailed by the build-up to *that* scene, as well as the ensuing fallout, in which the film turns into a CW teenage drama show. There's a lot of shuffling in order to justify the inclusion of an awkwardly-filmed sex scene. By the time the arc is complete, the relationship between Batman and Barbara ends up being soured for the wrong reasons. Batman clearly cares for Barbara, but is it because she's a romantic interest getting away, or because she's a young student that he mentored and gave guidance to? This entire section could be executed with more poignancy without the relationship drama.

Then you get to the Killing Joke portion of the film, in which Barbara becomes a non-entity again. Her appearances make no acknowledgement of what came before, and her connections to Jim Gordon and Batman are simple and clear: she's a loving daughter to the former, and a trusted friend to the latter. What is disturbing are the changes to the dialogue that seem to remove the ambiguities as to what the Joker did to Barbara. In the hospital, Harvey Bullock tells Batman that they found Barbara in a state of undress, but dialogue about the camera lens (which would clarify that the Joker undressed her to take pictures) is omitted, leaving viewers to assume the worst. Then there's the scene with the prostitutes, which establishes that Joker had a sex drive, and would visit prostitutes after breaking out. They suggest that he "found himself another girl", which has unfortunate implications. Bruce Timm states that this was unintentional, but whether it's just tone-deaf writing or a deliberate attempt to add more "edginess" to an already-dark story, the implications are there in the story as presented.

Now then, the rest of the film is fine, with some parts being passable or well done, and Hamill turning in an excellent performance. The tonal shift between the prologue and the main story is jarring, going from a Batman-Batgirl story to a Batman-Joker story. And the ending scene was rather underwhelming, with the dulled aesthetic of the film not quite capturing the full emotion of Bollard's pages. The laughing scene would have been better with a touch of subtlety on Conroy's part.

[Metamorphosis]

Agreed with a lot of the above. I see the necessity for the prologue, but I don't like what Azarello came up with that much. The Babs / Bruce hookup just seemed a little forced to me, and didn't seem like it needed to be there. Even Batman's added conversation with the prostitutes while looking for Joker came off odd. There were, though, some good actions sequences in the early part of the film.

The Killing Joke portion itself was extremely well done--there were some great scenes that looked lifted right out of the comic even if the animation was at times a little stiff.

Hamill and Conroy were great, as always.

I'm not sure padding out the story in this way needed to be done. Funny enough, it would have made a great episode of B:TAS, maybe a two-parter, but it obviously never would've made it past the censors.

The writing simply was not very good. It seemed like the prologue had an character arc laid out to show Barbara getting caught too deeply entrenched in the crimefighting life when she gets targeted by Franz (who was a bit too much of a cliched straw man villain), and then stepping down before she goes off the deep end. But all of that gets derailed by the build-up to *that* scene, as well as the ensuing fallout, in which the film turns into a CW teenage drama show. There's a lot of shuffling in order to justify the inclusion of an awkwardly-filmed sex scene. By the time the arc is complete, the relationship between Batman and Barbara ends up being soured for the wrong reasons. Batman clearly cares for Barbara, but is it because she's a romantic interest getting away, or because she's a young student that he mentored and gave guidance to? This entire section could be executed with more poignancy without the relationship drama.

Then you get to the Killing Joke portion of the film, in which Barbara becomes a non-entity again. Her appearances make no acknowledgement of what came before, and her connections to Jim Gordon and Batman are simple and clear: she's a loving daughter to the former, and a trusted friend to the latter. What is disturbing are the changes to the dialogue that seem to remove the ambiguities as to what the Joker did to Barbara. In the hospital, Harvey Bullock tells Batman that they found Barbara in a state of undress, but dialogue about the camera lens (which would clarify that the Joker undressed her to take pictures) is omitted, leaving viewers to assume the worst. Then there's the scene with the prostitutes, which establishes that Joker had a sex drive, and would visit prostitutes after breaking out. They suggest that he "found himself another girl", which has unfortunate implications. Bruce Timm states that this was unintentional, but whether it's just tone-deaf writing or a deliberate attempt to add more "edginess" to an already-dark story, the implications are there in the story as presented.

Now then, the rest of the film is fine, with some parts being passable or well done, and Hamill turning in an excellent performance. The tonal shift between the prologue and the main story is jarring, going from a Batman-Batgirl story to a Batman-Joker story. And the ending scene was rather underwhelming, with the dulled aesthetic of the film not quite capturing the full emotion of Bollard's pages. The laughing scene would have been better with a touch of subtlety on Conroy's part.

Good points, I mostly agree. It sounds weird, but I was really missing the red and blue lights of the arriving police cars washing over that end scene from the comic.

[batnbreakfast]

I'm happy to hear all this about TKJ movie, not a big fan of the comic or the last animated movies but it sounds intriguing. Have to wait till its released over here, though

[RD!]

I am curious as to whether this movie is connected to the other recent DC animated movies (since War), or if it is stand alone.

[SicariiDC]

Batman's ears bugged me

[kevink31593]

I loved it. Original story was great, movie was even better.

The beginning with Batgirl helped it to be a stand alone story for people who don't read the comics much or at all. You get to know Barbara a little bit before she gets shot, and you feel more for the character. The added scenes with her in the hospital also really help for this.

This was a major flaw with the original comic. You see her get shot, and get shown to her father afterward. That's it. She was literally only used as an object to make Jim's day terrible. It doesn't want you to care about what happened to Barbara. Yeah, this was Joker's plan, that's fine. But it wasn't just that, the author treated her as an object just as much. However, this was not the case in the movie. And that's why I like it more.

As for the sex scene... I thought it was pretty strange. Unnecessary, but it didn't make the movie worse. I don't really care. I find the complaints about her being "objectified" by it silly considering what I said above though, lol.

The scene in the hospital was in the book.

[kevink31593]

I am curious as to whether this movie is connected to the other recent DC animated movies (since War), or if it is stand alone.

The killing joke is a standalone movie, just like assault on Arkham and gods and monsters were.

[Loner]

I think they basically said to themselves "How can we piss Gail Simone et al off even more while still leaving ourselves an out?" Batgirl wasn't just depicted as "not an equal" but actually "not that good" and acting like a child after 3 years of training with Batman. They didn't need to "go there" with the sex to give her a reason to leave. And especially given that in the books she was engaged to Nightwing. "I don't know what turns me on more - that she's my son's ex or that she's my best friend's daughter!"

Her saving him felt tacked on to justify the earlier nonsense and say "See we didn't make her a total loser!" Missing the point.

[Quiet Raven]

The scene in the hospital was in the book.

Oh was it? Lol. I didn't remember it. But it has been a while since I read it. My brother even told me it was new to the movie so, lol. Oh well.