Thoughts on The Killing Joke movie

[godisawesome]

But again, it's not just the concept of them having sex I'm arguing with, it's the method. There's numerous health hazards to having impulse sex on a roof, in the night air, not to mention possible social issues that would occur if someone looked out the window at that moment, and those are just the things that normal, healthy, and most likely adventurous adults would most likely pause and decide "Wait, we can at least get under some kind of shelter, right? I mean what are we, exhibtionists?"

And that's not taking into account these are masked vigilantes who've been portrayed in every other medium as being paranoid about their identities; having sex where at least one person strips off their entire costume when there's still windows that can look down on them runs so counterintuitive to that idea that, quite frankly, it makes them both idiots. Not impulsive, consenting adults giving into a moment of passion, idiots. At least the equally stupid sex in Catwoman #1 took place in a room; both are examples of poor character work that will frankly leave plenty of DNA evidence for anyone looking for it, but at least one isn't an IPhone away from the Commisioner being asked "Sir, the sex tape seems to display a ludicrously toned redhead who looks exactly like your ludicrously toned red headed daughter mounting Batman in the night sky. Any comment?"

Face it, the moment, in its execution, regardless of its concept, is more at home in fanfiction than any published work. It makes a questionable characterization decisions just a stupid what-the-hell moment.

[Babs]

everything about it fits with what everyone hated in BTAS/Beyond.

Fixed that for you.
If there was one thing that pretty much everyone hated about the DCAU, it's that Bruce Timm pushed this awkward romance between Bruce and Barbara on us.

More importantly, Batman Beyond was Timm's own take on the Batman mythos. He had more room to play with his own interpretations of these characters, but The Killing Joke is Alan Moore's work. They were adapting something, so they should have stayed away from this kind inserting Timm's DCAU into this adaptation, specifically not something they should know that most Barbara fans hate with a passion.

She didn't quit because she couldn't handle sleeping with him, she quit because she knew HE couldn't, and that it would likely get him killed thinking too much about her.

lol no. It's fine if that's your personal interpretation of the story, but this is in no way implied or suggested, and i don't think many people will agree with you that that was the idea behind it from the writers point of view.

[ispacehead]

But again, it's not just the concept of them having sex I'm arguing with, it's the method. There's numerous health hazards to having impulse sex on a roof, in the night air, not to mention possible social issues that would occur if someone looked out the window at that moment, ....

Yeah, cuz people who are constantly being shot at or running from explosions would totally worry about a splinter in their fanny.

"Wait, we can at least get under some kind of shelter, right? I mean what are we, exhibtionists?"

They were on the roof of a building. One, pretty high up. Two, below the edge of the building, so they really may not have been all that visible.

Seriously, have you NEVER been overcome by passion at a less than opportune moment?

Fixed that for you.

Stick to writing statements about your own feelings rather editing mine to support some imaginary pretense that everyone shares your opinion.

lol no. It's fine if that's your personal interpretation of the story, but this is in no way implied or suggested, and i don't think many people will agree with you that that was the idea behind it from the writers point of view.

I think that most mature viewers should be able to read between the lines. She certainly didn't quit just because she finally bagged the big bad dark knight. That's just silly.

The extra emotional baggage doesn't sully any of the characters involved, despite whether or not it fits with your personal view of how they should behave.

[Lhynn]

I think that most mature viewers should be able to read between the lines. She certainly didn't quit just because she finally bagged the big bad dark knight. That's just silly.

I think most mature viewers would stay away from this garbage, but if they saw it theyd see it for what it is.
She quit being batgirl because she finally banged her teen fantasy and that was the her entire motivation for doing it. THAT is what is implied.

[godisawesome]

First off, thanks for actually responding to my complaints. I posted similar stuff on other boards, and you're the first one to actually tackle that complaint.

Yeah, cuz people who are constantly being shot at or running from explosions would totally worry about a splinter in their fanny.



They were on the roof of a building. One, pretty high up. Two, below the edge of the building, so they really may not have been all that visible.

Seriously, have you NEVER been overcome by passion at a less than opportune moment?

No, I have not, but I'm an exceptionally mellow individual without much less experience in affairs of the heart, so I can't quite objectively refute your point from personal experience...

... But I've also never taken the time to master multiple disciplines of martial arts, meditation, criminology, acrobatics, or been involved in the manhunt for a psychotic clown with a double digit body count. And all of that requires extreme self-discipline, the kind of self control that runs exactly contrary to the Harlequin-romance-novel "amorous passion" on display in such a scene. In fact I'd argue the events of The Killing Joke, at least as portrayed in this film and in Moore's intentions towards the ending, refute this idea of Batman having that impulsiveness, again exposing a flaw in the plot point. If Batman lacks the impulse control to give into "cave man passion," as Cat Ballou put it, how does he maintain control later when a woman he's partnered with, fought alongside, and been intimate with has been shot and sexually assaulted for the sole purpose of driving her father, his best friend, insane?

That question isn't so much an indictment on the story as much as it exposes how the plot thread either sets up an entire unexplored character arc for Bruce, in a movie where he's resolutely not the focus, or an illogical and counterproductive sequence that goes against the rest of the film.

Stick to writing statements about your own feelings rather editing mine to support some imaginary pretense that everyone shares your opinion.

I think that most mature viewers should be able to read between the lines. She certainly didn't quit just because she finally bagged the big bad dark knight. That's just silly.

The extra emotional baggage doesn't sully any of the characters involved, despite whether or not it fits with your personal view of how they should behave.

I'd argue it doesn't inherently sully the characters, in the same way that Barabra Gordon being the victim in the Killing Joke isn't inherently sexist on its own. The issue comes from the context of the world around the film, the fanbase, the way the actions in the film bleed into an almost bottomless well of fictional female characters seemingly portrayed as weak and helpless, and the question of whether or not such decisions may hurt the marketability of the character in the future.

Because what we have here is weaker variations on Batman and Batgirl; flaws are excellent tools for fleshing out characters, but have to spring from organic extrapolations of a character, like Bruce being harmfully paranoid or dangerously wrathful when his temper's up. And this Batgirl feels unimpressive and a little bit shallow; the film portrays her as being somewhat incompetent and clearly rash enough to make some major professional and personal mistakes, mistakes big enough that eventually they pile on and convince her to quit, only to be immediately victimized once she has. This character's far more pitiful than anything else, which does kind of hurt her marketability; Oracle was specifically given some more "steel" and skills in her characterization to erase that perception, and it's also the reason her two successors as Batgirl had their toughness and worthiness for the job emphasized (Cass's unbelievable fighting prowess, and Steph's pure determination and ability to adapt.)

Creatively speaking, there's nothing objectively wrong with taking a popular character and portraying her as unusually less skilled, mature, or capable than other variations on her character or her peers. But objectively, it does Jack all for her appeal to the audience as a character they want to see more of.

[Babs]

Stick to writing statements about your own feelings rather editing mine to support some imaginary pretense that everyone shares your opinion.

Come on man, it's common knowledge that most fans hate the Bruce/Barbara romance in the DCAU. If you like it, that's fine. Kinda weird, but fine. Just don't pretend that you're not part of a very small minority. Even the girl from Beyond the trailer flat out stated that people already hated the pairing when they did it in Batman Beyond. It's not news that the vast majority of fans dislikes it.

I think that most mature viewers should be able to read between the lines. She certainly didn't quit just because she finally bagged the big bad dark knight. That's just silly.

Maturity has nothing to do with that, but thank you for trying to take it down to a cheap level of "I'm smarter then u cus i see sometin u dont" kind of discussion.
There is a difference between reading between the lines and seeing something that isn't there. Somebody else here already explained why your idea makes little to no sense.
She quit because she got so angry and emotional that she nearly killed a man with her bare fists, and that was too much for her. Bruce's "feels" literally had nothing to do with it.

[ispacehead]

I think most mature viewers would stay away from this garbage, but if they saw it theyd see it for what it is.

A Batman movie?

It's not Shakespeare, but having been familiar with the original publication since it's original date of release, I would say that it's at least a fair representation of the original material.

The prologue certainly doesn't detract from the story, but rather adds extra emotional weight to Barbara's role in Batman's life.

She quit being batgirl because she finally banged her teen fantasy and that was the her entire motivation for doing it. THAT is what is implied.

No, that is just the easiest conclusion to come to for those not so well versed in matters of the heart.

It seems more than a little unrealistic to think that they would remain completely asexual in their relationship. Particularly when you consider that Babs is likely the only woman that really 'knows' Bruce.

Meantime, we see that Barbara has blossomed from the waify little scrapper to a beautiful young woman.

In my mind, Batman is not a eunuch.

The idea that they were both repressing such feelings is not such a leap.

First off, thanks for actually responding to my complaints. I posted similar stuff on other boards, and you're the first one to actually tackle that complaint.

Happy to discuss it with someone that has more to say than "NUH UH!!"

No, I have not, but I'm an exceptionally mellow individual without much less experience in affairs of the heart, so I can't quite objectively refute your point from personal experience...

Passion is an amazing thing. For 2 that have withheld their feelings for so long, sudden explosions of affection are hardly out of character, and more par for the course.

Because what we have here is weaker variations on Batman and Batgirl.

I disagree.

I don't see how humanizing them makes them weaker characters.

Bruce has never been shown as the perfect person.

I dare say that Babs has always been portrayed as more mature than the majority his partners, so it only makes sense that she would be the one to make sense of the error in their decision, and end it the only way that it could after such a course.

There's no going back from something like that.

Come on man, it's common knowledge that most fans hate the Bruce/Barbara romance in the DCAU.

Maybe in your circle. I think you're leaping to say 'most.'

Maturity has nothing to do with that, but thank you for trying to take it down to a cheap level of "I'm smarter then u cus i see sometin u dont" kind of discussion.

It goes without saying that some stories or aspects of stories will never be understood by the reader that lacks common experience.

Maturity has everything to do with it.

Didn't you ever watch something as a kid, and then again later as an adult to see it with new eyes, and perhaps understand some of the innuendo that went over your head as a youth?

Perhaps this is something that has yet to become apparent to you.

She quit because she got so angry and emotional that she nearly killed a man with her bare fists, and that was too much for her. Bruce's "feels" literally had nothing to do with it.

But I thought you said...

In this film it seems more like "Batgirl" was a tool that was invented by Commissioner Gordon's daughter to get close to her schoolgirl crush, the Batman. Once she finally got her dream stud to copulate with her, the reason for "Batgirl" seized to exist.

So which is it???

NVM. You've made it clear, that this wasn't for you.

I'll stick with my opinion, as it is supported more by the lore, and beyond that, by human nature.

[Quiet Raven]

I can understand the logic of that statement as it applies to the broad idea of a Bruce and Babs pairing; they're fictional characters after all, and I can't help it if certain creators have horrible ideas about how their stories should progress.

But even then, most consenting adults, when they make a mistake, don't make it after fistfight, on a rooftop, in public, when they're masked vigilantes!

I could maybe see a scene like that, as sleazy, exploitive, and moronic as it is, if a story showcased how two adventurers were either already that seriously, heavily, brain-dead flawed (in which case you're losing some of the punch of having the familiar Batman and Batgirl in a story that's ostensibly employing familiar variations of the characters) or if it dedicated serous character development time to showcase why this was the case. But this Batgirl seems to only have an infatuation; BTAS Batgirl had several years of working alongside Bruce, and even then was portrayed as not being a Bond-girl style sexpot.

This film's sex scene, at least in the unimaginative banality of its execution, doesn't really exist for character work. It exists because they had an R-rating and though t an edgy thing to do would be to have Batgirl jump alpha-male Batman 'cause he's just that manly.

Making a mistake after a fistfight? Not unusual in the least. Batman is brain dead flawed. Extremely. If you know anything batman... That should be clear. It's a very explicit part of the story. He is not supposed to be role model.

Aside from the fact that he devotes his life to dressing like bat and obsessing over his father's death (Even Alfred, his own butler, said that Dick Grayson is handling it far more maturely as a little kid) Plus, he is a very abusive father figure. For example: Punching Dick in the face just because he was angry at Bruce for keeping secrets regarding his family. (Nightwing volume 1, New 52)

[Lex Luthor]

It made an offensive storyline even worse. Barbara not only was a tool to further the emotional plot of other men her added moments to flesh her out did very little to rectify the criticism of the graphic novel and went even further by including a relationship that reached into a different level of eerieness. Truthfully the best thing they could have done was include an oracle origin instead of what they did so they can at least give Barbara's trauma meaning to someone besides her father or bruce. Even having her narrate the story as Oracle would have been much preferable

[Lhynn]

A Batman movie?
It's not Shakespeare, but having been familiar with the original publication since it's original date of release, I would say that it's at least a fair representation of the original material.

It isnt tho, thats the entire point.

The prologue certainly doesn't detract from the story, but rather adds extra emotional weight to Barbara's role in Batman's life.

Nonsense, it takes away from the story big time, this is a story about the joker, not about barbara. The whole thing lost impact and momentum by adding that stupid filler.

No, that is just the easiest conclusion to come to for those not so well versed in matters of the heart.

It was a quick and meaningless bang that made it awkward between two coworkers.

It seems more than a little unrealistic to think that they would remain completely asexual in their relationship. Particularly when you consider that Babs is likely the only woman that really 'knows' Bruce.

Barbara doesnt know bruce. And as far as ive seen she actually dislikes him once she does get to know him as oracle. She was the first of the batfamily to call him murderer when he was accused and more than once has wanted to strangle him.

Meantime, we see that Barbara has blossomed from the waify little scrapper to a beautiful young woman.

She blossomed from the stupid and rash teenager that was lucky not to get killed into some slut that needed to get it out of her system before moving on with her life. Why are you imagining things that arent there? The message of the entire sequence of events is pretty obvious.

In my mind, Batman is not a eunuch.

True, but to be fair, your mind seems more and more like a really disturbing place so id rather not go there.

The idea that they were both repressing such feelings is not such a leap.

The idea that she was repressing such feelings isnt a leap. And anyone could argue that it was the entire motivation for her wearing the costume. Bruce grabbing her booty was very out of character tho.

[ispacehead]

ITruthfully the best thing they could have done was include an oracle origin instead of what they did so they can at least give Barbara's trauma meaning to someone besides her father or bruce.

Um....isn't this exactly what they did at the very end??

Did you leave early?

[Quiet Raven]

It made an offensive storyline even worse. Barbara not only was a tool to further the emotional plot of other men her added moments to flesh her out did very little to rectify the criticism of the graphic novel and went even further by including a relationship that reached into a different level of eerieness. Truthfully the best thing they could have done was include an oracle origin instead of what they did so they can at least give Barbara's trauma meaning to someone besides her father or bruce. Even having her narrate the story as Oracle would have been much preferable

What do you mean? How could she narrate a story she wasn't even there for? And it kind of even did show the origin of Oracle.

[Babs]

Big pretentious post about how i know everything better

Listen guy, i'm done talking to you when you take on a tone like this. You're purposely taking on a preachy and belittling tone and trying to create a narrative where your opinion is somehow more valid because of "maturity" and a some sort of superior intellect, and that anyone who doesn't see things the way you do is either too young or too uninformed.
I know what kind of attitude this is, and where it comes from, and i'm mature enough to know that there's no point in arguing with a person like that when they get like this, because they will keep on stomping their foot insisting they are right until everyone else gets too tired to even try and reason with them.

Cheers!

[tabo61]

So was the Joker imposter a Arkham inmate, a guard he bribed to take his place, or some henchman he snuck into the Asylum to do the switch?

[ispacehead]

Listen guy, i'm done talking to you when you take on a tone like this. You're purposely taking on a preachy and belittling tone and trying to create a narrative where your opinion is somehow more valid because of "maturity" and a some sort of superior intellect. ..

By definition, R rated movies are recommended for mature audiences only. I'm not sure what it is about the word that you find offensive, but regardless, thank you for the compliment.

True, but to be fair, your mind seems more and more like a really disturbing place so id rather not go there.

Ah, nice. It's the old "I can't make any debate points, so I'll attack the speaker personally" trick.

You're making my maturity point for me.

Bruce grabbing her booty was very out of character tho.

Cuz everyone knows how guys hate grabbing booty.