Has there ever been proof that Joker is insane?

[The Whovian]

You really need proof that he's insane?

[Carabas]

Joker only pretends to be super insane imo
He does a very good job of it though
He's very evil though
The deeper you look at his character nobody could do what he does without meticulous planning and various schemes that require you not be schizo

I don't see why somebody can't be seriously not well in the head and also be extremely intelligent and meticulous.

Also, why would he even do that? Pretend to be completely nuts without any benefits for it. Because crazy or not, the Joker clearly falls outside of the requirements for a legal insanity defense. He obviously can tell the difference between wrong and right very well indeed.

[Unfinishedsentenc]

I don't see why somebody can't be seriously not well in the head and also be extremely intelligent and meticulous.

Also, why would he even do that? Pretend to be completely nuts without any benefits for it. Because crazy or not, the Joker clearly falls outside of the requirements for a legal insanity defense. He obviously can tell the difference between wrong and right very well indeed.

Yes, this. I don't understand how he stigmatizes mental illness; it's called an illness for a reason. Certainly readers should be aware that genocide and terrorism and torture are inherently wrong things to begin with, right?

[Quiet Raven]

I don't see why somebody can't be seriously not well in the head and also be extremely intelligent and meticulous.

Also, why would he even do that? Pretend to be completely nuts without any benefits for it. Because crazy or not, the Joker clearly falls outside of the requirements for a legal insanity defense. He obviously can tell the difference between wrong and right very well indeed.

There are plenty of people in the real world with mental disorders who are highly intelligent... It just means there is a disorder in the brain, but there are many things that can effect aside from intelligence.

Now, whether or not he falls under "Criminal insanity" is another debate. And one I don't know enough about to argue.

[seusilva]

And the "treatment" Joker and the other rogues receive at Arkham doesn't make much sense... what do you guys think? Even if joker is insane, has some mental illness, nobody really helped him to deal with that.

[Quiet Raven]

And the "treatment" Joker and the other rogues receive at Arkham doesn't make much sense... what do you guys think? Even if joker is insane, has some mental illness, nobody really helped him to deal with that.

Oh no, of course not. Arkahm is a terrible place.

Fun fact, Arkahm Asylum is based on a real mental hospital that existed which was infamous for being a really cruel, terrible hospital that did not know how to help it's patients. Well, to be more accurate, it's based on another fictional asylum, "Arkham sanatorium from H.P. Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep"". but that was based on "Danvers State Hospital" which actually existed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_State_Hospital

[Agent Z]

Yes, this. I don't understand how he stigmatizes mental illness; it's called an illness for a reason. Certainly readers should be aware that genocide and terrorism and torture are inherently wrong things to begin with, right?

He stigmatizes it by playing into the "insane equals violence" misconception. While the mentally ill commit slightly more violent crime than average, it's not anywhere nearly as common as media like superhero comics would have you believe. In fact, the mentally ill are more than eleven times more likely to be victims of violence themselves, but you won't see this reflected in the comics.

Basically, the Joker's "insanity" and Arkham Asylum are holdovers from an era where mental illness was not understood. They're outdated concepts but too "iconic" for writers to get rid of.

These articles explain it better

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1389236/

https://ladygeekgirl.wordpress.com/2...ses-in-comics/

I don't see why somebody can't be seriously not well in the head and also be extremely intelligent and meticulous.

Also, why would he even do that? Pretend to be completely nuts without any benefits for it. Because crazy or not, the Joker clearly falls outside of the requirements for a legal insanity defense. He obviously can tell the difference between wrong and right very well indeed.

The Doylist answer would be "the writers don't think this through and don't do their research".

[Quiet Raven]

He stigmatizes it by playing into the "insane equals violence" misconception. While the mentally ill commit slightly more violent crime than average, it's not anywhere nearly as common as media like superhero comics would have you believe. In fact, the mentally ill are more than eleven times more likely to be victims of violence themselves, but you won't see this reflected in the comics.

Basically, the Joker's "insanity" and Arkham Asylum are holdovers from an era where mental illness was not understood. They're outdated concepts but too "iconic" for writers to get rid of.

These articles explain it better

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1389236/

https://ladygeekgirl.wordpress.com/2...ses-in-comics/




The Doylist answer would be "the writers don't think this through and don't do their research".

But getting rid of the Joker because "Not all mentally ill people are like that" is kinda silly. Does every character need to represent everyone? How is that possible?

My point is: There are violent criminals who are mentally insane. No, these characters don't represent all people with mental illnesses. But that is because they are antagonists.

Now, maybe it could help the misconception people have a bit if they add some more characters to counter-balance it. But eliminating the characters is definitely not the way to go.

[Agent Z]

But getting rid of the Joker because "Not all mentally ill people are like that" is kinda silly. Does every character need to represent everyone? How is that possible?

My point is: There are violent criminals who are mentally insane. No, these characters don't represent all people with mental illnesses. But that is because they are antagonists.

Now, maybe it could help the misconception people have a bit if they add some more characters to counter-balance it. But eliminating the characters is definitely not the way to go.

And who is asking to get rid of the Joker? I don't recall anyone suggesting that in this thread. I'd be fine with the writers just admitting he's evil cause he wants to be and stop pretending they know how mental illness works.

[Quiet Raven]

And who is asking to get rid of the Joker? I don't recall anyone suggesting that in this thread. I'd be fine with the writers just admitting he's evil cause he wants to be and stop pretending they know how mental illness works.

I misunderstood this sentence here. I read it again and see that was totally my bad, sorry. "Basically, the Joker's "insanity" and Arkham Asylum are holdovers from an era where mental illness was not understood. They're outdated concepts but too "iconic" for writers to get rid of."

Though, regarding Arhahm being a "holdover from an era where mental illness was not understood." Not exactly. Well, maybe sorta, because obviously we undertsand it more now then they did then, but like I said above, it was intentionally based on a very bad hospital. So it's not like the writors ever really believed that this is how mental hospitals were supposed to be.

I think eliminating his insanity would be just as bad as getting rid of the Joker. That is what makes him interesting and who he is. I don't get why just because not all mentally ill people are like that they need to not have anyone like that at all. That is ridiculous.

[Agent Z]

I misunderstood this sentence here. I read it again and see that was totally my bad, sorry. "Basically, the Joker's "insanity" and Arkham Asylum are holdovers from an era where mental illness was not understood. They're outdated concepts but too "iconic" for writers to get rid of."

Though, regarding Arhahm being a "holdover from an era where mental illness was not understood." Not exactly. Well, maybe sorta, because obviously we undertsand it more now then they did then, but like I said above, it was intentionally based on a very bad hospital. So it's not like the writors ever really believed that this is how mental hospitals were supposed to be.

I think eliminating his insanity would be just as bad as getting rid of the Joker. That is what makes him interesting and who he is. I don't get why just because not all mentally ill people are like that they need to not have anyone like that at all. That is ridiculous.

The Nolan version of Joker was stated to not actually be insane and in the comics, the Joker has acknowledged he knows the difference between right and wrong, he just doesn't care. You could make the argument his "insanity" is not all that important so much as him just being evil monster who tortures and kills people because he can. Hence, there's no reason for the writers to treat him like he's insane.

[Unfinishedsentenc]

Oh no, of course not. Arkahm is a terrible place.

Fun fact, Arkahm Asylum is based on a real mental hospital that existed which was infamous for being a really cruel, terrible hospital that did not know how to help it's patients. Well, to be more accurate, it's based on another fictional asylum, "Arkham sanatorium from H.P. Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep"". but that was based on "Danvers State Hospital" which actually existed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_State_Hospital

Oh cool, thanks for the information. I haven't read the Lovecraft story, but it's interesting (and freaking awesome, I must say) that Arkham has such a direct inspiration from the works of a horror writer. Makes me love it that much more. And, yeah, Gotham's marquee "mental hospital" is certainly counter-productive in its treatments; I've always looked at it like it's actually helping feed the illnesses of the residents, instead of curing them. Pretty sure it's also been confirmed that the place is haunted... so there's that too, heh.

[SicariiDC]

Oh no, of course not. Arkahm is a terrible place.

Fun fact, Arkahm Asylum is based on a real mental hospital that existed which was infamous for being a really cruel, terrible hospital that did not know how to help it's patients. Well, to be more accurate, it's based on another fictional asylum, "Arkham sanatorium from H.P. Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep"". but that was based on "Danvers State Hospital" which actually existed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_State_Hospital

Now this is interesting. The rest of the thread, with comic Uber-fans practicing armchair psychiatry badly, not so much.

[The Overlord]

You really need proof that he's insane?

Yeah I do, because he is written as a psychopath most of the time, not someone criminally insane.

[Carabas]

Yeah I do, because he is written as a psychopath most of the time, not someone criminally insane.

He's very obviously not criminally, legally insane.
That does not make him medically sane. Very different concept.

You don't even have to be any kind of insane to qualify for legal insanity.