Thread Drift: Does Superior Spider-Man Show A Preference For Doctor Octopus?

[DCordo74]

People will respond differently to real traumas. This presumably applies to sci-fi traumas as well.

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Even if that response is to not have a response at all.

[Fissiks]

So I guess instead of therapy. They need a better writer. One that actually understands how that human emotions thingy works.

writer can only do so much when it seems the editorial mandate for 616 Spider-man is to keep him in a bubble.

[Carbon Based Stickler]

NEVER have sex with anyone if you think that's legal for ANYTHING.

Barabara Lee is the representative of my state. Tons of people have never heard of her. I can pretend to be her, find one of those many people, and nothing any of them consent to with me would be legal. Not sex, not a written or verbal contract, not sharing a bank account, not putting me on a lease or loan, and sometimes they'd be able to sue over buying me things in a relationship or lending me money.

Impersonation is illegal because its impersonation. Why would you think otherwise?

Now, if you wake up tomorrow in Barbara Lee's body, what are you going to do?

[Phantom Roxas]

Well he did in the short term, but he got his comeuppance, right? Spock's character arc was basically "pride comes before a fall".

Too bad the story apparently just won't end there, then, since he's coming back thanks to The Clone Conspiracy. But… I think I'm just going to stop here, because I think I would just keep moving the goalposts on this one. Maybe agree to disagree?

No matter the conclusion, I think it's a good thing that it can't be defined so easily. If someone is just 100% terrible with no shading, there's no lasting tension to the story. If there wasn't that love for Anna Maria, one of the few shining exemptions shown amongst his general propensity to be a megalomaniac, I don't think his willingness to surrender Peter's body back to him in the end would have rung half as true.

…Okay, my own habit for moving goalposts aside, this is a point I want to continue on with.

It's the love for Anna Maria that's the priority here. Yes, it offers some depth to his character, but having that be the reason he gives Peter his body back draws more attention to his devotion to Anna Maria. It makes sense to him, but his reason is that Peter was the truly superior Spider-Man. Which… doesn't really make Otto realize that oh wait, he tried to kill Peter twice over for this when Peter is a good man who did not deserve such cruelty. "Sorry, Pete, but my girlfriend is in danger. Look, you can have your body back because I know you'll save her anyway, but let's not talk about my whole 'killing you' thing, okay?"

Oh yeah, it was only through SpOck's fall from grace that he learned that lesson. I don't think it made him a hero though, not close. Just gave him a moment of much needed clarity.

Fair enough.

People will respond differently to real traumas. This presumably applies to sci-fi traumas as well.

That is not an explanation. That is a vague excuse to pretend that Peter and Anna Maria's responses are completely disproportionate to what happened. I understand Anna Maria cooking as a coping mechanism, but Peter acts like she is the one who needs to be consoled, since he tries to reassure her that Otto loved him. As shown in Kraven's Last Hunt and The Clone Saga, burying Peter alive and stealing his life from him (Kraven did both, while Miles Warren and Norman Osborn used Ben Reilly for the latter) is terrifying to Peter. Otto put Peter through one of the worst kinds of trauma that Peter has had to experience at least twice in his life. In Peter's case, I do not believe that this is something where he just went through something enough times that he built up some resistance or tolerance to it. Peter is not consoling Anna Maria out of some testament to how selfless he is. This is a scenario where Anna Maria's love for Otto leads Peter to think that their relationship takes precedence over his own feelings. Since DCordo74 brings up therapy, I believe that one issue worth addressing in therapy is that Peter is allowed to feel angry and violated and all kinds of negative feelings. For Slott to render that irrelevant because Anna Maria's feelings are supposedly more important is rather offensive to me.

Splitting hairs over "sci-fi traumas" and "real traumas" seems rather pointless because sci-fi is typically has a basis in reality. Even if a story involves technology that does not exist, science fiction serves to use that technology to supplement a contemporary understanding of society. As such, I do believe we can discuss concepts like identity theft or rape here. "Sci-Fi traumas" are not a thing, and such a phrase seems like an oversimplification. It is exploring real traumas in a sci-fi setting, and it is one that has precedence in the history of the character. Now, is The Clone Saga a good example of history? I wouldn't think so, but at the same time, I do think it at least displayed a greater respect for Peter's thoughts and feelings than Slott has displayed, since the Clone Saga at least had Peter think and feeling something, and Slott has used The Clone Saga as the basis for Spider-Island, and will be using it again for The Clone Conspiracy, so it seems fair to draw comparisons between his run and The Clone Saga.

So no, the idea that "people will respond differently" is not going to cut it. Try again.

[nose norton]

There's a difference, though--Peter pretended not to be Spider-Man, but it wasn't while his mind was in the body of say, Flash Thompson.

What Otto did was far morally worse, a murderer hiding in another man's body, and who committed manslaughter even during the story.

Yes, there are differences, my initial comment was more of a provocative thought than a perfect analogy, although when it comes to the particular concept of deception, both were guilty. In Otto's case, he just had much more to be ashamed off/hide.

Except the aftermath of Superior was basically the key characters acting like "Well, that happened. What's for lunch?".

Even though he changed his ringtone, don't forget that!

[Moral_Gutpunch]

There's a difference, though--Peter pretended not to be Spider-Man, but it wasn't while his mind was in the body of say, Flash Thompson. Otto was still very much Otto in the body of Peter Parker, with access to his memories (there wouldn't have been much of a story otherwise, granted).

It's not illegal to deny you're alter-ego except in SOME cases of the law (contracts and often hate/terror speech). Few cases would legally allow someone to demand I admit this is my CBR name if I didn't want to.

What Otto did was far morally worse, a murderer hiding in another man's body, and who committed manslaughter even during the story. Though the narrative attempts to pass him off as somehow noble or deserving of sympathy. Was this ever even acknowledged by Anna Maria after the fact?

Only the good stuff, from what I've heard. That's like promoting the message of Manson's books and parties, while denying he was, well, Manson. Or says Gacey was a really awesome Clown

Now, if you wake up tomorrow in Barbara Lee's body, what are you going to do?

Why? I didn't DECIDE to do that and have it lead to illegal stuff.

Because I'm not--as you keep forgetting-- a murderous psychopathic supervillain. THAT'S the reason Otto did it and just went with it. He shoots unarmed people in the face, why would he give a crap if it's technically rape against Anna? He wasn't going to worry about being caught using his own offshore accounts, which he knew was illegal, so why would he care about what counts as consent so long as no one catches on (like people who know basic law that comic books sometimes teach)? He chose to take over Peter's body forcefully, impersonate Peter, and use it for sex (heck,until he met Anna, he used Peter's mind to recreate Sex with memory-MJ every night).

By the way, mind control can be detected, he just tried to cover it up with Otto using the wrong methods. If Jean Grey or any other telepath (possibly even an empath or Wanda) would know the wrong mind is int he wrong body or at least that someone has been screwing around with it.

Also Slott himself addressed mind control and rape already in his She-Hulk run(poorly, he thinks violation only happens to women and sexual violation and harassment is funny). Starfox made her and John Jameson both fall in love and so horny they wanted to screw like metaphorical bunnies. This was acknowledged as legally wrong, though John never accepted it as violation as Jennifer did. Starfox using his powers on women who didn't want him to was declared the same as giving them a mickey (consensual ones didn't). Awesome Andy was forced to quit and lost his reputation with women and the love of his life when he stole Starfox's power to make said woman fall in love with him. It was heavily implied that the only reason she didn't take legal action for the mental violation was because everyone suspected him stealing Starfox's powers was accidental.

[DCordo74]

writer can only do so much when it seems the editorial mandate for 616 Spider-man is to keep him in a bubble.

I'm fairly certain that the editorial mandate for 616 Peter does not say, that Peter is not allowed to have an emotional response to stories he is participating in. But I suppose I could be wrong.

[Phantom Roxas]

Also Slott himself addressed mind control and rape already in his She-Hulk run(poorly, he thinks violation only happens to women and sexual violation and harassment is funny). Starfox made her and John Jameson both fall in love and so horny they wanted to screw like metaphorical bunnies. This was acknowledged as legally wrong, though John never accepted it as violation as Jennifer did. Starfox using his powers on women who didn't want him to was declared the same as giving them a mickey (consensual ones didn't). Awesome Andy was forced to quit and lost his reputation with women and the love of his life when he stole Starfox's power to make said woman fall in love with him. It was heavily implied that the only reason she didn't take legal action for the mental violation was because everyone suspected him stealing Starfox's powers was accidental.

Hmm… alright, I want to add a further response to this post.

To be pedantic, I'm not preventing anyone from claiming that SpOck committed rape by fraud. I am explaining why I think that view is wrong and misguided.

You can criticize Otto and Anna Maria's relationship for any reasons you choose. One question is whether the criticism is directed at a character who made a decision you disagreed with, or for Slott for telling this story.

So we can direct criticism at the writer - which is rather standard for literary analysis - who told this story if Slott has shown in the past that he cannot portray this subject matter all that well.

[Moral_Gutpunch]

I'm fairly certain that the editorial mandate for 616 Peter does not say, that Peter is not allowed to have an emotional response to stories he is participating in. But I suppose I could be wrong.

Morbius is hanging out at Horizon and has hurt a total of negative several million people, Tony Stark is acting like Tony Stark and reacting will create the disaster Tony hopes for, can't pay rent because he's bad with money= Go Ballistic
Torturing Sandman, being mentally violated and his body used for all kinds of wrong things, MJ left him because Doc Ock sabotaged that potential relationship. Morbius invents something that can restore lost limbs = Hey what's son TV?
It takes more than one sentence to fix things that a supervillain did because he was in control of your body , Morbius invents something that can save billion of people, someone plays around with space-time again and you end up in Spider-Verse= No reaction at all

[Moral_Gutpunch]

To be pedantic, I'm not preventing anyone from claiming that SpOck committed rape by fraud. I am explaining why I think that view is wrong and misguided.

Uh, it's a real law. It had been for years. Otto just took impersonation to a comicbook level. You probably want to talk to a lawyer or someone who can change those laws if you think it's misguided.

Rape by fraud isn't excused by love, 'forgetting' 'lying by omitting doesn't count, officer', all of those mean consent never happened because consent was given to PETER PARKER only Not his body, his whole identity. He probably could have gotten away with 'I'm not really Peter Parker, I'm pretending to be him'.

He doesn't have to be convicted to have done it.

To be pedantic, I'm not preventing anyone from claiming that SpOck committed rape by fraud. I am explaining why I think that view is wrong and misguided.

You can criticize Otto and Anna Maria's relationship for any reasons you choose. One question is whether the criticism is directed at a character who made a decision you disagreed with, or for Slott for telling this story.[/QUOTE]

Laws are fact, not criticism. It's possible to argue the severity of the law, such as aggravated versus simple assault, but this is pretty cut an dry as to what happened. For it not to qualify as 'rape by fraud', he should have pulled the Spider-Man cliche of telling her. If he loved her and trusted her, he'd tell her. If he didn't trust her then, don't have sex. That was Peter's mistake with Black Cat, wouldn't Otto have learned that lesson right off the bat?

He's a supervillain, love or not. He murdered, he spied on other women in the bathroom with his robots, he used his overseas account for illegal activities, he blackmailed, he created a police state.

[Mister Mets]

Uh, it's a real law. It had been for years. Otto just took impersonation to a comicbook level. You probably want to talk to a lawyer or someone who can change those laws if you think it's misguided.

Rape by fraud isn't excused by love, 'forgetting' 'lying by omitting doesn't count, officer', all of those mean consent never happened because consent was given to PETER PARKER only Not his body, his whole identity. He probably could have gotten away with 'I'm not really Peter Parker, I'm pretending to be him'.

He doesn't have to be convicted to have done it.

Laws are fact, not criticism. It's possible to argue the severity of the law, such as aggravated versus simple assault, but this is pretty cut an dry as to what happened. For it not to qualify as 'rape by fraud', he should have pulled the Spider-Man cliche of telling her. If he loved her and trusted her, he'd tell her. If he didn't trust her then, don't have sex. That was Peter's mistake with Black Cat, wouldn't Otto have learned that lesson right off the bat?

He's a supervillain, love or not. He murdered, he spied on other women in the bathroom with his robots, he used his overseas account for illegal activities, he blackmailed, he created a police state.

What specific law are you referring to? What is the relevant text of the law?

I've covered some of the legal questions in earlier posts, but it doesn't seem to apply to what happened to Anna Maria Marconi.

http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2189211
http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post2192241

[cyberhubbs]

Nope. I mean, I'm sure Slott enjoyed writing Otto in the role and even likes the concept, but I still think Peter is his favorite of the two.

[Dr. Octopus]

I couldn't care less if it showed a preference for Doc Ock or not. What I do know is the run on Superior was one of the most, exciting, insightful, brilliant takes on a Spidey villain. We really got inside Otto's head, and saw all new nuances to his character, as well as expanding on established ones.

[Scott Taylor]

Slott seems to prefer Ock, as a villain, but obviously prefers Peter as a hero. Ock didn't do one heroic thing the entire time he was SSM. Yes, he saved some children, because of his background. Just happened to seem heroic, but he was doing it because of the pain in his unbringing, not out of a true sense of heroism. A true hero steps outside of his own psychological limitations and saves everyone he can simply because its the right thing to do.

[FF-Fighter]

It's a lost classic. Easily in my top five Doc Ock stories of all time. Defalco's script tugs at the heartstrings without being too over the top and Doc Ock's characterisation is spot on. Definitely one to check out.

It was built on in the last two issues of Superior Spiderman teamup I believe. That story is worth checking out too.