All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[Prof. Warren]

And War Machine was killed because he was the only one close to Tony and Carol.

1) What does referencing Rhodey's death have to do with Hydra Cap and Banner's CW II death being stories that are specific to those characters?

2) Rhodey is the one character who has ties to both Tony and Carol whose death would affect both characters in a major way. I can't think of any other character who has a similar established history with both Tony and Carol. Rhodey just checks off all the boxes in a way that no other character would.

3) Just for future reference, I think it's safe to say that Rhodey will be back one day. Maybe soon, maybe not so soon, but one day he'll be back.

[macattack]

Marvel's main heroes have been around for over 50 years, how long do we minorities have to prop up your heroes? When can we shine? Do we have to wait until you're dead and buried so we won't assault your sensiblities with our different appearances and mores?

I am not suggesting that in the slightest, what I am suggesting is a path that could be more fruitful for minority and LBGT characters in the long run, and I listed how this approach worked with a minority character, Silk. I think for a more permanent, less gimmicky diversity, minority and LBGT characters need to be built up and then tried in solo material (if they are heroes and not Betty Brant types). What Marvel is doing is exploiting their minority characters and virtue-signaling, which tears the fanbase apart. The replacement method is good for press coverage and shock value but Marvel's sales frankly are a shadow of what they were when Axel Alonso took over the comics. Its not working in the long run unless Comixology sales are enormous.

[America]

This week was the first time ever that I have bought multiple books and not a single one of them be Marvel book. There just isn't much to read. Its all trash that was created with the intent of drumming up a controversy to drum up sales, but Marvel overplayed their hand and people don't care anymore-they just buy Rebirth books instead.

[ZephyrSurf]

Actually one of the major storylines I remember about Falcon was when he was on the hard-7 Avengers group. He kept doubting himself about his presence on the mandated 7 member crew. Was he just there because he was Cap's buddy? Had he arrived there on his own merits?

Now one thing that highly annoys me about Fal-Cap is that he's made to be the same thing as Rogers which he isn't. Steve was a leader, a captain but I've always felt that Sam was a different person altogether. He's a politician. I wanted him to be more mellow and happy like he was in his original appearances. I wanted him to be Cap-diplomat, a man of the people. Rogers is like a statue the crowd admires from afar, Wilson should be standing in the crowd, shoulder to shoulder with his fellow men.

Yeah, but that was years ago. Why should that kind of plot point be rehashed so far down the line? There are certain story beats that it makes no sense to revisit due to timeliness, development and scale.

I also don't get what you mean about Sam, cause his personification is very of the people. And not as an icon. He's certainly not as mellow as he once was, but given circumstances, it's perfectly understandable why he is. Things are unquestionably awkward and politically charged in the country right now with minority groups of all sorts.

[steeplejack2112]

Um, there's a difference between not liking and not trying. Most of the classic fans started in the second category, and then stated they don't like when they have no idea what it's like. With that said, not only do I spend my own money on it, I'm starting my own comic book business that focuses on diversity. So you best believe I fully support it. With that said, to call relying on classic readers to create new markets as a stupid idea just rely reflect how close-minded the classic readers are. Either it fits within their bubble, it it get kicks to the side.

So everyone who's been reading comics for quite some time....we're all close-minded? Are you fucking serious? Either watch how you word things, or get to know "classic readers" before you group us all together like that.

[macattack]

So everyone who's been reading comics for quite some time....we're all close-minded? Are you fucking serious? Either watch how you word things, or get to know "classic readers" before you group us all together like that.

I wish him luck on starting a comic book business when he's alienating a significant portion of his customers right out of the gate.

[steeplejack2112]

I wish him luck on starting a comic book business when he's alienating a significant portion of his customers right out of the gate.

I usually keep my mouth shut and just roll my eyes in front of my monitor when reading these types of threads, but I get really pissed off when I am forced into a category to further along an already pointless argument. Fuck that.

[Prof. Warren]

I am not suggesting that in the slightest, what I am suggesting is a path that could be more fruitful for minority and LBGT characters in the long run, and I listed how this approach worked with a minority character, Silk. I think for a more permanent, less gimmicky diversity, minority and LBGT characters need to be built up and then tried in solo material (if they are heroes and not Betty Brant types). What Marvel is doing is exploiting their minority characters and virtue-signaling, which tears the fanbase apart.

The common thread in the "I'm not racist but..." or the "I'm all for progress but..." arguments is that some fans say they're ok with diversity and they're ok with progress...but only if it proceeds in a particular way (unobtrusive) and at a particular pace (slow) that they feel comfortable with. The suggestions for doing diversity "right" from these fans always involves introducing new characters and slowly building them up over time. Anything other than that is "forced" or "gimmicky" or "agenda-driven". In other words, these fans are ok with women and POC and LBGT characters - as long as they don't overstep their boundaries too much or too quickly. Anything other than the most incremental progress is regarded as a threat and something to push back against.

So here's the thing - if your attitude about progress and diversity is essentially "I'm fine with it...but only if it doesn't infringe on anything I care about", then you might not really be as ok with it as you think. Doesn't make someone racist, but it does speak to a feeling among some fans that, deep down, they would rather things not change at all or that they change so slowly that it barely causes a ripple in the culture.

[Prof. Warren]

This week was the first time ever that I have bought multiple books and not a single one of them be Marvel book. There just isn't much to read. Its all trash that was created with the intent of drumming up a controversy to drum up sales, but Marvel overplayed their hand and people don't care anymore-they just buy Rebirth books instead.

Really? Every Marvel title last week was "all trash that was created with the intent of drumming up controversy"?

DOCTOR STRANGE?

DAREDEVIL ANNUAL?

DEADPOOL

DEADPOOL V GAMBIT?

MOON KNIGHT?

PUNISHER?

UNCANNY X-MEN?

I could go on with more titles but you get the picture. I'd say your characterization of current Marvel contains elements of exaggeration.

[leo619]

Your desire to see dissent banned disturbs me. Some day you will be the one who wants to dissent, but what if you can't because you helped ensure it was?

Its a silly thing to suggest. This topic keeps flaring up because Marvel's current direction frustrates people and they need to vent. If people fond of Jane-Thor lost her tomorrow and they wanted to complain about it they have the right to do so, the same goes for those fond of having the classic characters in the mantle. Dissent creates discussion, which captures the interest of people and increases forum traffic and participation.

Also, there were a LOT of people angry over Rhodey biting it when it happened. I don't know where you were but a lot of the forum was unhappy about the death, including myself. It was purely for shock purposes and added little to the story.

Calling out that this (or any website) doesn't support free speech does not mean I stating any sort of dissent needs to be banned, I'm just stating facts. The facts is, this forum, or any forum that's not a government website does not fall within the rules of free speech. It is up to the moderators of that website to determine what they will, or will not allow. A forum could start with allowing all speech to be accepted, only to later find out he doesn't like when people talk about a certain subject. Because a private establishment such as your job, website, facebook, whatever, doesn't fall under the free speech parameter, they have the right to banned such speech. And at least you guys can express you're dissent here, as ridiculous as some of the claims may be. You try to make these statements at the mary sue website and you'll be banned in 2.5 seconds.

That's a myth. The reason Cho would have less chances to come back from the death than Banner is not because he's not white. It's because he is not as iconic. Since the more iconic characters are from a time when the huge majority of characters were white, it appears than white heroes get a better treatment. But it's rather a matter of A-list vs D-list.

Of course Banner will probably be back before Rhodes. And when Rhodes will come back, Bill Foster and Microb will still be dead.

Sorry, not a myth. I mean look whose coming back later this year. Richard Ryder. Now if you ask 7/10 regular people walking down the street if they know who war machine is, they would say yes. That's iconic. You ask 7/10 people who Richard Ryder is, they wouldnt have a clue. Richard Ryder wasn't even a top seller. He's a cult classic, that's it, and even he's being brought back. So no, race definitely has a major part of being brought back. The fact that Richard is coming back and we aren't certain Rhodey wills already explains to that fact.

[leo619]

So everyone who's been reading comics for quite some time....we're all close-minded? Are you fucking serious? Either watch how you word things, or get to know "classic readers" before you group us all together like that.

Or actually read my words before you have a heart attack. I specifically referred to the classic reader group who doesn't support almost no new characters because it doesn't fit with their nostalgia paradigm.
I have stated this numerous times already.

[Fokken]

Or actually read my words before you have a heart attack. I specifically referred to the classic reader group who doesn't support almost no new characters because it doesn't fit with their nostalgia paradigm.
I have stated this numerous times already.

Right?
Chill dude.

[ZephyrSurf]

I am not suggesting that in the slightest, what I am suggesting is a path that could be more fruitful for minority and LBGT characters in the long run, and I listed how this approach worked with a minority character, Silk. I think for a more permanent, less gimmicky diversity, minority and LBGT characters need to be built up and then tried in solo material (if they are heroes and not Betty Brant types). What Marvel is doing is exploiting their minority characters and virtue-signaling, which tears the fanbase apart. The replacement method is good for press coverage and shock value but Marvel's sales frankly are a shadow of what they were when Axel Alonso took over the comics. Its not working in the long run unless Comixology sales are enormous.

I really don't think you should use Silk as an example. Cause her build up time during Spider-man and through Spider-verse did more detriment to her character than benefit.

I know a lot of people who won't even look at a silk solo due to how terrible she was in her spider-man support years.

Silk's success relied a lot on her initial artist and writing in her solo book more than anything.

[steeplejack2112]

Or actually read my words before you have a heart attack. I specifically referred to the classic reader group who doesn't support almost no new characters because it doesn't fit with their nostalgia paradigm.
I have stated this numerous times already.

In your own words...."how closed minded THE classic readers are". Where's the separation in that? There is none. You very much grouped all classic readers together in that one sentence. Fuck what came before....you did it there, and I am calling you on it.

[ZephyrSurf]

In your own words...."how closed minded THE classic readers are". Where's the separation in that? There is none. You very much grouped all classic readers together in that one sentence. Fuck what came before....you did it there, and I am calling you on it.

I'm sorry, but that's kinda nonsensical. If he made the specification in this thread beforehand and has carried on with the same discussion with no indication of diversion, there's no need for him to repeatedly reiterate that that is the case.

Trying to pull a snap shot and use it against him is on you and only you.

If in my first statement I say A.I.D.S. stands for Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, it's not on me to say that every other time I bring up A.I.D.S. in the same place just cause it's convenient for you who doesn't want to backtrack.