All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[steeplejack2112]

I'm sorry, but that's kinda nonsensical. If he made the specification in this thread beforehand and has carried on with the same discussion with no indication of diversion, there's no need for him to repeatedly reiterate that that is the case.

Trying to pull a snap shot and use it against him is on you and only you.

If in my first statement I say A.I.D.S. stands for Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, it's not on me to say that every other time I bring up A.I.D.S. in the same place just cause it's convenient for you who doesn't want to backtrack.

You know what? What the fuck ever. As a classic comic book reader I guess I'm the bad guy here, as I guess we all are, so you win the day. You can all collect your cookies or gold stars at the entrance to this thread.

[teamhawkeyes]

I really don't think you should use Silk as an example. Cause her build up time during Spider-man and through Spider-verse did more detriment to her character than benefit.

I know a lot of people who won't even look at a silk solo due to how terrible she was in her spider-man support years.

Silk's success relied a lot on her initial artist and writing in her solo book more than anything.

Her years as Spider-Man support? Wasn't it like 8 months between her first appearance and the debut of her solo? She was introduced in ASM during Original Sin then went directly to Spider-Verse and then got her solo. I'd say her success came from her being introduced in issue #3 of a major PETER IS BACK book, initially being tied into an event, then being a major part of a huge spider-event, and then having a quality creative team for her solo that came right after.

[ZephyrSurf]

You know what? What the fuck ever. As a classic comic book reader I guess I'm the bad guy here, as I guess we all are, so you win the day. You can all collect your cookies or gold stars at the entrance to this thread.

You know, bitching just cause you couldn't take the time to understand the context of his post cause you felt attacked where it may well not have even applied to you doesn't make you look better.

Fuck my post wasn't even attacking you or saying he was right. I'm just stating you have no grounds to expect him to reiterate what he said when it's publicly observable

You came at him with a false understanding of his point and he rather pointedly showed that's not the case.

If you would have taken the time to read.

[macattack]

The common thread in the "I'm not racist but..." or the "I'm all for progress but..." arguments is that some fans say they're ok with diversity and they're ok with progress...but only if it proceeds in a particular way (unobtrusive) and at a particular pace (slow) that they feel comfortable with. The suggestions for doing diversity "right" from these fans always involves introducing new characters and slowly building them up over time. Anything other than that is "forced" or "gimmicky" or "agenda-driven". In other words, these fans are ok with women and POC and LBGT characters - as long as they don't overstep their boundaries too much or too quickly. Anything other than the most incremental progress is regarded as a threat and something to push back against.

So here's the thing - if your attitude about progress and diversity is essentially "I'm fine with it...but only if it doesn't infringe on anything I care about", then you might not really be as ok with it as you think. Doesn't make someone racist, but it does speak to a feeling among some fans that, deep down, they would rather things not change at all or that they change so slowly that it barely causes a ripple in the culture.

Or maybe I don't like the characters being replaced and I think that original mantles and characters would be better instead.

24: Legacy will have a black protagonist. He's not Jack Bauer, but a brand-new character. I support this. I hope Jack Bauer's story finishes someday so his end isn't wasting away in a Russian prison, but a new main character who did not take Jack Bauer's name while following the same general 24 continuity is something I do support. That's being diverse without insulting the fanbase and doesn't replace Jack Bauer.

The way Marvel is going about it IS insulting the fanbase of the established characters and is not respectful of the original characters themselves. That's what I have a problem with.

[ZephyrSurf]

Her years as Spider-Man support? Wasn't it like 8 months between her first appearance and the debut of her solo? She was introduced in ASM during Original Sin then went directly to Spider-Verse and then got her solo. I'd say her success came from her being introduced in issue #3 of a major PETER IS BACK book, initially being tied into an event, then being a major part of a huge spider-event, and then having a quality creative team for her solo that came right after.

I'm fairly certain she was introduced during original Sin and was in Spiderman from issue 3 to issue 12 and then spider verse

And then her series. It's not a long time. but I'm pretty sure it was two years so the 'years' statement.

But my point is that Silk's prominence didn't have a lot to do with Silk being a supporting character in Spidey's book that got built up.

[teamhawkeyes]

I'm fairly certain she was introduced during original Sin and was in Spiderman from issue 3 to issue 12 and then spider verse

And then her series. It's not a long time. but I'm pretty sure it was two years so the 'years' statement.

But my point is that Silk's prominence didn't have a lot to do with Silk being a supporting character in Spidey's book that got built up.

Okay so because I'm very obnoxious and had to know if I was right or wrong, I decided to look it up. Silk debuted during the Original Sin tie-ins for ASM #4-5 in July 2014. Then Spider-Verse went from ASM #9-15, which ended in February 2015. She had a huge role in the first couple issues of Spider-Woman which launched during Spider-Verse. And then her solo began in February 2015, the same month Spider-Verse ended.

So I do think her success had a lot to do with her role in ASM/Spider-Verse. She gained lots of exposure in two newly-launched books, across two major events before starting her title immediately afterward. Yeah, there were some people who didn't like her that much before she got her solo, but I doubt her title would have initially sold nearly as much if she hadn't had such a huge role in those books. From then on it was up to the creative team of the solo to keep people interested.

To tie this back to the main point of ALL of this before I got nitpicky about Silk, I do think it was a successful way to introduce a new character. But I don't think it has to be the only way. I don't think it's the "right" way. I think there are multiple ways to go about doing it. Some work, some don't. Some people prefer one way, some prefer another way. But there's no inherent right or wrong in this.

[Frontier]

I have a hard time believing that anyone would be interested in reading more of Silk if they were coming from ASM and Spider-Verse, and if they did, I have to assume it was probably more for the potential of the character then how she was actually being portrayed in those books.

Unless a newly-intrdocued character who just so happens to be bitten by the same radioactive spider that bit Peter, is portrayed as better and stronger then Spider-Man at practically everything, is kind of obnoxious, and who constantly makes out with him because of spider-pheremones really appeals to people .

Marvel certainly lucked out in finding a creative team who could actually realize that character's potential and make her into something viable and likable.

[MyriVerse]

I have a hard time believing that anyone would be interested in reading more of Silk if they were coming from ASM and Spider-Verse, and if they did, I have to assume it was probably more for the potential of the character then how she was actually being portrayed in those books.

Unless a newly-intrdocued character who just so happens to be bitten by the same radioactive spider that bit Peter, is portrayed as better and stronger then Spider-Man at practically everything, is kind of obnoxious, and who constantly makes out with him because of spider-pheremones really appeals to people .

Marvel certainly lucked out in finding a creative team who could actually realize that character's potential and make her into something viable and likable.

Silk's the only Spider-related character I even remotely like these days (sadly, including Mayday ). Still haven't bought an issue of Spider-Gwen, and don't intend to.

[teamhawkeyes]

I have a hard time believing that anyone would be interested in reading more of Silk if they were coming from ASM and Spider-Verse, and if they did, I have to assume it was probably more for the potential of the character then how she was actually being portrayed in those books.

Unless a newly-intrdocued character who just so happens to be bitten by the same radioactive spider that bit Peter, is portrayed as better and stronger then Spider-Man at practically everything, is kind of obnoxious, and who constantly makes out with him because of spider-pheremones really appeals to people .

Marvel certainly lucked out in finding a creative team who could actually realize that character's potential and make her into something viable and likable.

The initial success of Silk had nothing to do with the quality of the actual book and creative team, though. No one had read it when shops were buying those first issues. I'm pretty sure Silk #1 debuted in the top 10. There's no way that would have happened if everyone who read Spider-Verse hated her so much that they refused to pick up her title. Just because there were people who didn't like Silk, that doesn't mean EVERYONE didn't like her.

[Frontier]

Silk's the only Spider-related character I even remotely like these days (sadly, including Mayday ). Still haven't bought an issue of Spider-Gwen, and don't intend to.

I like her too, but that's because of the quality of writing on Silk and in-spite of how badly (and problematically) she was portrayed prior to that.

The initial success of Silk had nothing to do with the quality of the actual book and creative team, though. No one had read it when shops were buying those first issues. I'm pretty sure Silk #1 debuted in the top 10. There's no way that would have happened if everyone who read Spider-Verse hated her so much that they refused to pick up her title. Just because there were people who didn't like Silk, that doesn't mean EVERYONE didn't like her.

I'm just struggling to see what all there was to like prior to that book, since it seems to be the main reason anyone likes or cares about the character .

[leo619]

In your own words...."how closed minded THE classic readers are". Where's the separation in that? There is none. You very much grouped all classic readers together in that one sentence. Fuck what came before....you did it there, and I am calling you on it.

Um no, I have already reference who I was referring to specifically before in my previous post. I don't have to single out every single time who I'm referring to if I already made my claim earlier in the previous conversation just to fit your liking. Anyone who actually was following my stance exactly who I'm referring to. So you can keep "attempting' to call out whatever you like, anyone who paid attention to my statements know exactly well who I'm referring to.

Secondly, I didn't generalize all classic fans. I generalize the majority. We all know there was a few classic fans that had no problem accepting minority heroes. But as we all know, they didn't make up the majority. If they did, we wouldn't be in the place where we are today. So to clarify and put it bluntly.

If you're a classic fan who fully supported the minority heroes that came out that kept failing, and you're upset about the current state, sadly you guys are bystanders to the majority, but the fortunate side is all of the heroes that you're upset about will be reverted back to their status shortly, before something else major happens *cough* hydra cap *cough*

If you're a classic fan that only supported the mainstream characters and didn't support minority characters, I have no sympathy for you and I hope you leave marvel comics asap as you hijacked the comic book industry.

If you're a classic fan that states you supported minority heroes just to prop up your stance of about how you dislike the current state of Marvel comics, but you know full well you didn't support any of the minority heroes, you're even worse and again, I can't wait for Marvel's change in direction to kick you out of comics.

[mugiwara]

Sorry, not a myth. I mean look whose coming back later this year. Richard Ryder. Now if you ask 7/10 regular people walking down the street if they know who war machine is, they would say yes. That's iconic. You ask 7/10 people who Richard Ryder is, they wouldnt have a clue. Richard Ryder wasn't even a top seller. He's a cult classic, that's it, and even he's being brought back. So no, race definitely has a major part of being brought back. The fact that Richard is coming back and we aren't certain Rhodey wills already explains to that fact.

Do you mean a street next to a comics convention? Because that's the only way you can find 7/10 people knowing who War Machine is.
I can give you that he is a bit more popular than Nova because he appeared in some movies, but he's not that big.

Now are you seriously comparing a character who's dead 5 years ago to a character who died 2 monthes ago?
How course right after Rhodey's death, Ryder's odd to be resurrected were higher.
But If you go that way, Jericho Drumm died after Richard and was brought back before him.

[Prof. Warren]

Or maybe I don't like the characters being replaced and I think that original mantles and characters would be better instead.

24: Legacy will have a black protagonist. He's not Jack Bauer, but a brand-new character. I support this. I hope Jack Bauer's story finishes someday so his end isn't wasting away in a Russian prison, but a new main character who did not take Jack Bauer's name while following the same general 24 continuity is something I do support. That's being diverse without insulting the fanbase and doesn't replace Jack Bauer.

The way Marvel is going about it IS insulting the fanbase of the established characters and is not respectful of the original characters themselves. That's what I have a problem with.

Some fans feel insulted. That is not a universal reaction by any means and certainly not an intended reaction on the part of Marvel. As a fan of characters like Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, etc, I personally don't perceive any insult or see any disrespect directed at those characters. After all, the originals are still around and their stories are still ongoing.

Also, it would be awfully strange if a black actor were to take over for Kiefer Sutherland and still be called Jack Bauer so that was never an actual possibility. However, for a woman or POC take over a title, like Captain America...that's very possible and can lead to great stories.

[steeplejack2112]

Um no, I have already reference who I was referring to specifically before in my previous post. I don't have to single out every single time who I'm referring to if I already made my claim earlier in the previous conversation just to fit your liking. Anyone who actually was following my stance exactly who I'm referring to. So you can keep "attempting' to call out whatever you like, anyone who paid attention to my statements know exactly well who I'm referring to.

Again....you win. I'll be more than happy to be the bad guy if it further advances your point. I'll just go return to the background and remember my place here.

[Matternativ]

Or maybe I don't like the characters being replaced and I think that original mantles and characters would be better instead.

24: Legacy will have a black protagonist. He's not Jack Bauer, but a brand-new character. I support this. I hope Jack Bauer's story finishes someday so his end isn't wasting away in a Russian prison, but a new main character who did not take Jack Bauer's name while following the same general 24 continuity is something I do support. That's being diverse without insulting the fanbase and doesn't replace Jack Bauer.

The way Marvel is going about it IS insulting the fanbase of the established characters and is not respectful of the original characters themselves. That's what I have a problem with.

I missed the part were Steve Rogers became black, Clint Barton a woman and Bruce Banner asian.