All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[leo619]

Hmm...
...why "white guys"?

Don't know, seeing as I never once referred to classic readers as white guys. *shrugs*

[JKtheMac]

The common thread in the "I'm not racist but..." or the "I'm all for progress but..." arguments is that some fans say they're ok with diversity and they're ok with progress...but only if it proceeds in a particular way (unobtrusive) and at a particular pace (slow) that they feel comfortable with. The suggestions for doing diversity "right" from these fans always involves introducing new characters and slowly building them up over time. Anything other than that is "forced" or "gimmicky" or "agenda-driven". In other words, these fans are ok with women and POC and LBGT characters - as long as they don't overstep their boundaries too much or too quickly. Anything other than the most incremental progress is regarded as a threat and something to push back against.

So here's the thing - if your attitude about progress and diversity is essentially "I'm fine with it...but only if it doesn't infringe on anything I care about", then you might not really be as ok with it as you think. Doesn't make someone racist, but it does speak to a feeling among some fans that, deep down, they would rather things not change at all or that they change so slowly that it barely causes a ripple in the culture.

Very well said. Although I think the sad truth is that people like to make issues of gender and race all about them and not about the issues. This is why the "I am not racist, sexist, etc" is so cringeworthy, because all of a sudden we are talking about that person and their own sense of what should be done. Any criticism of that stance is forced into the personal. The individual can twist and pivot and claim all sorts of things as long as they cling to the assertion that they are not the bad guy. Suddenly we should ignore all of the facts and instead focus on one person's perspective of what the publishing strategy is, and how personally affronted they are by these subjective collections of facts and assertions.

In other words the protesters seem to be upset by their own subjective viewpoint. It is self reflective and out of proportion to the external cause. Marvel have not set out to offend them, their own reaction to Marvel's output has made them feel emotional but they would rather blame that emotional reaction on the external stimulus than self reflect. Any self reflective analyst would recognise that there is no single strategy at Marvel, and that they may be cherry picking the facts to make their assertions and ignoring the ones that contradict them. Anything to avoid the idea that their own conservatism may be based on a position of past privilege.

The best part is Marvel are leaning into the bend. The more headlines and social media outrage they get the more they push the buttons of the vocal offended. They have done this with the X-Men debate, their position on the Fantastic Four, and the issue of legacy. It is quite delightful when you realise that those that self identifify as being affronted or persecuted are actually being teased. Anyone that has studied the history of Marvel would know they have hardly ever been accused of being conservative, indeed those accusations are usually made during unsuccessful periods.

[classicgmer]

Sorry, not a myth. I mean look whose coming back later this year. Richard Ryder. Now if you ask 7/10 regular people walking down the street if they know who war machine is, they would say yes. That's iconic. You ask 7/10 people who Richard Ryder is, they wouldnt have a clue. Richard Ryder wasn't even a top seller. He's a cult classic, that's it, and even he's being brought back. So no, race definitely has a major part of being brought back. The fact that Richard is coming back and we aren't certain Rhodey wills already explains to that fact.

Who exactly is it that's not certain that War Machine/Rhodey isn't coming back Why are you certain he's not coming back? Oh wait let me guess because "my favorite character Synch from a niche X-book back in the 90's hasn't come back yet!! or wait even better yet "Black Goliath still hasn't come back yet!!"


He's got a lot more cache to his name then some of the names that I usually see bandied about on here (which honestly really isn't saying too much) so not really sure why there's a question as to whether he's coming back. Now whether or not he comes back fast enough satiate any one given persons timetable is up for debate but I find it hard to believe that too many people are questioning whether he's coming back at all.

[Pat Thomas]

Hmm...
...why "white guys"?

Because we have been the primary readers since forever. Therefore, we get blamed when books fail, whether we buy them
or not. The publishers simply made books they thought the customer base would buy, until the market collapsed in the 90's.
It's never fully recovered, the customer base kept getting smaller, and now they are wooing readership that they used to
ignore mostly. Smart business move if they can succeed without alienating the existing fan base, but that's not how it's
been handled, so we have divided fanbases.

[Smoov-E]

Who exactly is it that's not certain that War Machine/Rhodey isn't coming back Why are you certain he's not coming back? Oh wait let me guess because "my favorite character Synch from a niche X-book back in the 90's hasn't come back yet!! or wait even better yet "Black Goliath still hasn't come back yet!!"


He's got a lot more cache to his name then some of the names that I usually see bandied about on here (which honestly really isn't saying too much) so not really sure why there's a question as to whether he's coming back. Now whether or not he comes back fast enough satiate any one given persons timetable is up for debate but I find it hard to believe that too many people are questioning whether he's coming back at all.

We know he's coming back but what you glossed over is HOW LONG until he comes back, it took Doctor almost a decade to come back yet Hank Pym comes back in three months cause..............

[classicgmer]

We know he's coming back but what you glossed over is HOW LONG until he comes back, it took Doctor almost a decade to come back yet Hank Pym comes back in three months cause..............

I didn't gloss over anything...The guy I responded to seemed to think there was a question as to whether he'd be brought back at all. (least that's the way I'm reading it) He'll come back when Marvel feels it's appropriate whether that be 2,5 or 10 years.

Like I said he's got more cache then guys like Synch and Bill Foster so I really don't think it'll be that long but if by some miracle he's sidelined for that long it really won't bother me. (never has, never will)

I'm guessing most people most likely had the same views that Night Thrasher would never come back but he's back now & to me what they do with him going forward is far more important then the length of time he was dead.

[classicgmer]

I didn't gloss over anything...The guy I responded to seemed to think there was a question as to whether he'd be brought back at all. (least that's the way I'm reading it) He'll come back when Marvel feels it's appropriate whether that be 2,5 or 10 years.

Like I said he's got more cache then guys like Synch and Tom Foster so I really don't think it'll be that long but if by some miracle he's sidelined for that long it really won't bother me. (never has, never will)

I'm guessing most people most likely had the same views that Night Thrasher would never come back but he's back now & to me what they do with him going forward is far more important then the length of time he was dead.

Also I think it's questionable to say that Hank Pym was deceased at the end of "Rage of Ultron" & I really don't think there was a question by the end of that story that we'd be seeing Pym in some way, shape or form not too far into the future.

[Mr MajestiK]

Don't know, seeing as I never once referred to classic readers as white guys. *shrugs*

Zing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dragonmp93]

Also I think it's questionable to say that Hank Pym was deceased at the end of "Rage of Ultron" & I really don't think there was a question by the end of that story that we'd be seeing Pym in some way, shape or form not too far into the future.

Well, in Uncanny Avengers, Ultron is using his body as a disguise.

[ed2962]

Because we have been the primary readers since forever. Therefore, we get blamed when books fail, whether we buy them
or not. The publishers simply made books they thought the customer base would buy, until the market collapsed in the 90's.
It's never fully recovered, the customer base kept getting smaller, and now they are wooing readership that they used to
ignore mostly. Smart business move if they can succeed without alienating the existing fan base, but that's not how it's
been handled, so we have divided fanbases.

The problem with this statement though is that it implies that Marvel superhero comics were traditionally a "white thing" and that minorities or minority characters weren't significant part of the comics community. It also implies that having more minority/female led titles will somehow alienate white guys, but look around...lots of men like characters like Ms Marvel and Batgirl, lots of white dudes like Luke Cage and Black Panther. And by your own admission, the audience for print comics have been steadily shrinking for years, why shouldn't Marvel try to attract a wider base of readers?

[dragonmp93]

The problem with this statement though is that it implies that Marvel superhero comics were traditionally a "white thing" and that minorities or minority characters weren't significant part of the comics community. It also implies that having more minority/female led titles will somehow alienate white guys, but look around...lots of men like characters like Ms Marvel and Batgirl, lots of white dudes like Luke Cage and Black Panther. And by your own admission, the audience for print comics have been steadily shrinking for years, why shouldn't Marvel try to attract a wider base of readers?

Well, i dont know, but replacing a person that used to 25 titles with 25 persons that buy one title doesnt sound like an awesome deal.

[Raye]

Well, i dont know, but replacing a person that used to 25 titles with 25 persons that buy one title doesnt sound like an awesome deal.

Why not? the money is the same, and it's more steady. If the hypothetical person buying 25 titles stops entirely for whatever reason (just moves on, money, dies, whatever) that's 25 fewer books being sold, and all of the money from those 25 issues is lost. Someone getting one book does the same, Marvel is still making a profit from the remaining 24. Just because someone only gets one book doesn't mean they're going to be fickle about it. (in fact, I think they would be much more invested in the story being told if it wasn't just one among many that they plow through one after another)

so yeah, losing a big reader hurts more in the short term, but attracting a wider base of people who buy fewer total titles each is more steady in the long run.

[Smoov-E]

I didn't gloss over anything...The guy I responded to seemed to think there was a question as to whether he'd be brought back at all. (least that's the way I'm reading it) He'll come back when Marvel feels it's appropriate whether that be 2,5 or 10 years.

Like I said he's got more cache then guys like Synch and Bill Foster so I really don't think it'll be that long but if by some miracle he's sidelined for that long it really won't bother me. (never has, never will)

I'm guessing most people most likely had the same views that Night Thrasher would never come back but he's back now & to me what they do with him going forward is far more important then the length of time he was dead.

You missed a lot or else you wouldn't have brought up Hank Pym has zero cache and the fact that nothing can stick with him other then including him in a umpteenth Ultron story drives that point home or mentioning that time he slapped Wasp.

Hank Pym, can die for a month and brought back and still ain't worth anything

[JKtheMac]

Because we have been the primary readers since forever. Therefore, we get blamed when books fail, whether we buy them
or not. The publishers simply made books they thought the customer base would buy, until the market collapsed in the 90's.
It's never fully recovered, the customer base kept getting smaller, and now they are wooing readership that they used to
ignore mostly. Smart business move if they can succeed without alienating the existing fan base, but that's not how it's
been handled, so we have divided fanbases.

You know bringing up the total disaster of 90s comics and at the same time wanting comics to be just like the 90s is a little self defeating.

[DurararaFTW]

Who exactly is it that's not certain that War Machine/Rhodey isn't coming back Why are you certain he's not coming back? Oh wait let me guess because "my favorite character Synch from a niche X-book back in the 90's hasn't come back yet!! or wait even better yet "Black Goliath still hasn't come back yet!!"

Not being certain he's going to come back and being certain he's not coming back are not same thing. I don't see why someone saying the former needs to be accused of the later by you.