View Poll Results: Happy with All New Marvel?

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    99 46.05%
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  1. #61
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    I'm fine with Marvel. I read what appeals to me, and avoid what doesn't.
    Healthy habit !
    I don't chose my reads over what the OP stated mattered to him (pretty sure it's an him) though, creative teams are my dealmakers/breakers.
    That's why I'm passing on Bendis' CWII for exemple.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  2. #62
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    I'm fine with Marvel. I read what appeals to me, and avoid what doesn't.
    Healthy habit !
    I don't chose my reads over what the OP stated mattered to him (pretty sure it's an him) though, creative teams are my dealmakers/breakers.
    That's why I'm passing on Bendis' CWII for exemple.
    You're not missing anything there.

    It's complete and utter garbage.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  3. #63
    Incredible Member macattack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penthotal View Post
    DC has already relaunched all its best selling characters and even this way Marvel has kept a generous lead in both market and dollar share. People should learn to read data and not following article headlines hype. DC is having a successful relaunch but not at the expense of Marvel, and even putting out a lot of issues 1 for months at a lower price than the competition Marvel still has a good 10%+ points advantage. DC won't get more share in the next months because after the #1 the books obviously won't be able to keep selling 150-300k per issue.
    Marvel is publishing significantly more books than DC and the sheer amount of volume is keeping them ahead. DC won't have all of their titles out until October because of the phase-in strategy they're doing. This type of metric is skewed because DC is not on an even footing with Marvel and Rebirth isn't trying to be anything other than getting people to read DC Comics whether lapsed or new.


    DC is following the strategy called "have your cake and eat it too", and the way Johns set this up back in May is paying off well. The $2.99 price point may be sustainable for a while because many of the books are biweekly, we're basically paying $5.98 for 45 pages instead of $3.99 (or in Civil War's case $4.99) for 25 pages. Still a better value than Marvel but DC is not going to go broke by doing this. At least not until sales drop, and time will tell if they will.

    I am against Marvel's approach because it relies on sensationalist short-term gain instead of long-term building. With the zillion events, can Riri, Amadeus, Miles, etc. hope to stand on their own? Already, Riri Williams is being rushed into prominence in a highly unnatural way that screams of a forced character creation to replace Tony Stark.

    You know what Marvel could have done with Tony if they wanted to truly support diversity? They could have left Antonio Stark from the Ultimate Universe alive and made him THE Tony Stark. Hard to reverse, still recognizably Tony Stark, and made a concrete effort for diversity with a long-lasting status quo change. But they didn't do that, and instead wasted him with the rest of the Ultimate Universe sans Miles.

    Marvel's current direction is not sustainable. The only classic heroes still standing in their original mantles will be Steve Rogers (who will be corrupted for the foreseeable future), Peter Parker (who is basically Tony Stark), T'Challa, Natasha, and Hugo Strange. With the event emphasis and hero vs hero smackdowns frustrating the readers and giving the books little time to breathe, can any of the legacy/replacement heroes hope to stand out from the shadows of their forbearers? I don't think they can.

    The organic way to build diversity is to give the original heroes their mantles and lives back, and surround them with diverse characters in addition to key classic characters. Building is much harder than destroying, but it is much more rewarding because eventually these diverse characters will become integral parts of the Marvel universe and we won't need to race-bend anymore in adaptations because the diverse cast will already be there. And if new supporting heroes are diverse, they can grow out of team books and supporting casts and take on lead roles instead. Silk grew out of Dan Slott's Spidey books in this way. It works and is much more rewarding for readers, creators, and accountants.

    This current direction is not the way. And I think that's what is creating this fan frustration, that there is a better way, and Marvel seems to be flouting that they're not taking it.
    Last edited by macattack; 08-02-2016 at 02:35 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    I just find it sad that if you are upset about your favorite character being replaced that somehow makes you intolerant.
    it's because that people started to complain about "super hero remplacement" only when they did it with minority, no one complained when Bucky replaced Captain America or Scott Lang took the mantle of Ant-Man, but when Falcon became Cap all suddently complain about "forced minority remplacing" and legacy characters destroyed when Falcon is one of the oldest sidekick and legit remplacement for Cap, the only explanation is that people allowed Bucky because of "white privilege" and were disturbed by Sam Walson because he is a minority character

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokany View Post
    it's because that people started to complain about "super hero remplacement" only when they did it with minority, no one complained when Bucky replaced Captain America or Scott Lang took the mantle of Ant-Man, but when Falcon became Cap all suddently complain about "forced minority remplacing" and legacy characters destroyed when Falcon is one of the oldest sidekick and legit remplacement for Cap, the only explanation is that people allowed Bucky because of "white privilege" and were disturbed by Sam Walson because he is a minority character
    Well when Bucky replaced Cap it was actually a good story. The Iron Nail was complete crap. Plus you add to the fact that Steve was just replaced by Bucky within the last 10 years and they do it again? It is just Marvel rehashing the same story over again and that is what made some people unhappy. Were some people upset because of a black man replaced Cap? Sure, sadly racism is still alive and you are probably not going to get rid of it forever. But you can't chalk everything up to racism and point a finger at everyone and yell racist.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    Doesn't Steve have a book, and won't Thor Odinson be getting a new book in the fall?
    There is a book with Steve's name on it. I wouldn't call it Captain America though

  7. #67
    Incredible Member regg215's Avatar
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    I would agree with Marvel/DC Fan that the story lines are another thing that makes the replacement characters hard to get behind. Previously when a legacy character came around it was because of story reasons, like Rhodey taking over for Tony due to his alcoholism and bucky taking over for cap as a result of civil war. the replacement felt like a natural extension of the story that was already being told. The newer characters seem to replace the originals for reasons that make no sense. Thor is somehow whispered unworthy, suddenly a new way to transfers hulk's powers to someone is discovered, and a character who has appeared in all of 20 panels is all the sudden able to take over for Tony. If the replacement characters were handled with a little more forethought it would be a lot easier to get behind and support them, but since the changes are so jarring and seem to come from nowhere it seems like Marvel is simply going for shock factor instead of story. The exception being Laura taking over as Wolverine, which has been handled exceptionally well and is currently one of Marvel's best series in my opinion.

    I am all for a more diverse Marvel Universe, it is great that they want to reach out to new fans but in my opinion they would really benefit from making the stories more detailed and really providing a great story line for the change.
    Last edited by regg215; 08-02-2016 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    I would agree with Marvel/DC Fan that the story lines are another thing that makes the replacement characters hard to get behind. Previously when a legacy character came around it was because of story reasons, like Rhodey taking over for Tony due to his alcoholism and bucky taking over for cap as a result of civil war. the replacement felt like a natural extension of the story that was already being told.
    As classic as the Winter Soldier storyline is now, the outcry early on about it was very vocal. Marvel made a huge mistake in bringing back Bucky, fans said, and killing off Cap...forget about it. That was just too far. Now that it's a part of the past and it exists as a complete story, people forget that it was not immediately embraced by all.

    And having Rhodey take over for a boozing Tony was not universally loved at the time either. We didn't have the internet back then for people to gripe non-stop but if that storyline were done today, there'd be no end to the threads about the forced PC move of making Rhodey take over for a drunk Tony.

    Those storylines were no more "organic" than anything happening today. Then, as now, writers and editors simply came up with storylines they believed in and then went about telling them. Fans tend to forget that most classic storylines were every bit as controversial when were first published as current controversial storylines are today.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member regg215's Avatar
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    You definitely raise some good points. I did not really check sites like this or talk to people who were into comics when winter soldier story line was around, so I was not really aware of the reaction of the majority of the fan base at the time. I was overseas when the story line happened and had to have my comics shipped to me by my brother.So all I really knew were his and my opinion. It's also a good point that having hindsight on the Tony and rhodey story does help how it reads now. I don't really like how they have handled the new transitions recently but maybe in a few years it will seem better once the story line is finished or at least further along.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes. Shouldn't there be a moratorium on these "I'm not racist but Marvel's really pissing me off with their diversity" threads? How many new threads on the same topic do we need where angry fans vent that their favorite characters have been stolen/replaced with females, people of color, etc.?

    As a longtime Marvel fan who really loves current Marvel, it should be pointed out that these characters who have supposedly been taken away are still in play. Thor/Odinson will have his own book soon, Steve Rogers is still Cap, Tony Stark may soon step down as Iron Man but it's a safe bet that Marvel has big plans for him, Bruce Banner might be dead but solicits already hint that he may return soon courtesy of The Hand, and Wolverine might be dead but Old Man Logan should be old school enough to satisfy longtime fans looking for the "real" Wolverine.

    If you really care about these characters and have been following them for years, I'd think it'd be interesting (as it is to me) to see them involved in stories that haven't been told a million times already. I'm excited to read The Unworthy Thor, I'm loving the Hydra Cap storyline, I'm eager to see where Tony's story is going, I'm excited to see how Bruce will return and what stories will follow, and Old Man Logan is a great Wolverine book - one that feels both classic and totally new at the same time.

    Every fan has a right to their likes and dislikes but as someone who's been reading Marvel for decades, I love that change is a constant with these characters. It doesn't alienate me - it keeps me interested.
    Pretty much this. I don't care what title a character goes by, as long as they're interesting, and in most cases they still are, even if someone else has taken up their old mantle. It's not perfect, mostly I think they had some of these stories stretched out a little bit long. But nothing is ever perfect, nor will it ever be, and though I have some minor gripes, overall I am pretty pleased with things.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrSurf View Post
    I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing diversity. But I feel when people do it, more often than not, they use it as a marker of quality rather than talk about diversity in and of itself.

    More often than not, people bitch over the book having a particular person of a certain skin tone or gender or sexual orientation than about the merits of the book itself. And then they conflate those gender/orientation/race issues into markers of quality than of diversity.

    So it ends up being "It's diverse so it's bad" or "It's the same so its good" rather than "It's diverse and also is good" or "It's the same and bad." or "The same and good" or "diverse and also bad."
    Sorry for the double post, but began reading through the rest of the thread, and this post jumped out at me. I could not agree more. It's always annoyed me that people equate quality with the events that happen rather than the actual quality of the writing. It's possible for a book to do something you disagree with to a character, (and it's perfectly fine if that ticks you off) but still be written and/or drawn well, and conversely it can do everything you ever hoped for with a character, but be written and/or drawn horribly.

    i think that's where a lot of the divide between the people who are cool with the new stuff vs those who dislike it actually comes from, just that there are different types of readers in terms of what they are looking for. While i think everyone has a bit of both going on when they read, especially when it comes to favorite characters, I'm just talking in a very broad, general sense. I do think some readers are more focused on interesting stories being told and how well they're told, and the actual events that occur are secondary, while some others are more interested in seeing their favorites being treated well, and they may have a VERY specific idea of what that means. The divide arises in that interesting and engaging stories can do some pretty awful things to their characters sometimes, in order to create conflict and drama, or promote character growth, or... well, there are lots of reasons. Or they may do the old red herring to make you THINK something bad has happened, when it really hasn't, and they will reveal that a few more issues down the line. And while the first type of reader will probably be willing to wait it out and see where it goes as long as they find the quality good, the second type may just find it completely unacceptable and dislike it immensely. But i mean, sometimes you gotta shake things up to keep things interesting, or maybe the writer knows that being hurt now will make them stronger by the end, or who knows what else, the reasons are endless. Some of my favorite stories have arisen from some pretty massive changes or horrible things happening to a character, and as long as it's told well, I'm all for whatever they may throw at us. Now, I'm not saying absolutely any big shakeup or change to a character will be automatically good. There are limits to how far you can go and the type of things you do to or change about a character, and it won't always BE told well and may actually damage a character sometimes. I do get that. But, I mean, that's no reason to not take any chances at all, within reason. the failures are outweighed by the successes, imo. And if a character is damaged by a story, this is comics, nearly anything can be fixed.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Rebirth is selling mainly because DC is basically giving their books away at $2.99 (and with subscriber discounts at most comic shops, you're talking probably $2.50).

    While I'm sure many DC fans are happy to have the old guard back, DC's approach is, ultimately, a dead end. Let me explain:

    One, they're going to have to raise the price eventually (I'm guessing six to seven months in) and that's going to kill their sales. DC has given their readers the idea that they can sell their books at a cheaper rate and when they go back on that, a lot of readers will just jump ship. They're taking a loss on their books right now in order to entice readers but they'd be better off being honest about what price point they can survive at. If anyone thinks DC plans on - or financially would be able to - keep their books at $2.99 for too long, they'll be in for a rude awakening on that front.

    Two, catering to the old fans may make the old fans happy but it's a short sighted approach with short term goals. Marvel is building a new generation of readers while DC is just playing to the same aging fan base.

    Rebirth doesn't interest me because it's just the same old, same old. Thumbing through the recent Batman issues, I just couldn't justify buying them. When I see Batman with Gordon on the rooftop next to the Bat-signal and talking to Alfred in the Bat-cave, I'm like...I've been here before. Like, a hundred thousand times over. It'd be like if in Amazing Spider-Man, Peter was still selling pictures to the Bugle and meeting the gang down at the Coffee Bean. It's boring. If what you primarily want from following comics is to exist in a perpetual bubble of nostalgia, isn't it cheaper to just re-read your back issues?

    If DC fans are enjoying Rebirth, that's great. It's not for me, though. I'd rather follow a comic universe that is evolving and moving forward, not living in denial of the future.
    Marvel building a new generation of readers, is a good point.

    It's boring, comics being in a perpetual nostalgia bubble, also a good point.

    To ward off reading the sameness of previous generations of comic stories, I do wonder what has to be done in both Marvel and at DC? Bending and stretching the old white straight male characters seems to be the way Marvel want to go, as well as introduce legacy and fresh characters like the new body jumper and Ulysses. With DC I do wonder how they can inject something new into their franchises from the state they are at in Rebirth. As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, DC have trimmed back a couple of alternate versions of their reboots, to leave just two. But DC are stuck on whether to stretch, (or leave the same), their old characters out of the comfort zones they are now stable in. Do you begin to show Superman to have faults in front of the DC public, that discredits him, like a Hank Pym, or Bruce Banner? Can you show Batman killing a perp and the cops now have him on the run, he gets apprehended, and, gets put in jail like a Matt Murdoch? Why is it so difficult for DC to humiliate their characters like Marvel has no trouble doing?

    I liked Batman vs Superman, the movie, because it was a Civil War, so different to the DC comic verse. I am really anticipating the The Suicide Squad by DCU because it is a redemption story like The Thunderbolts run by Norman Osborn. (I think Marvel are so jealous because DC came up with Normans evil villains before they did). These are great ideas by DC, and if they could do these stories in their books, it would be fantastic. Show Superman attacking Bruce Wayne's very mission as barbaric and illegal. Show Batman sabotaging Supermans Fortress of solitude, or kidnapping Lois Lane, to ransom Clark from always interfering in natural disasters. Real philosophical discussions on "purpose" and "motivation" being shared by heroes. Even the fact Wonder Woman had this defusing effect on the conflict between the two was a stunning development for those men to admit. (I am so glad Doomsday made his debut, and now he can increase in strength in captivity!!).

    I remember that first incling of CW being addressed in the first Avengers movie, where Tony said to Steve, "All you are came out of a bottle" and they were just about to start fighting when Hawkeyes attack on the Helicarrier distracted them. It was on right then, if the plot wasn't tearing them away. These sorts of character philosophical discussions drive strong reader immersion.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-03-2016 at 06:42 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Errrr... can we edit this to be less offensive?


    LMAO, My bro you always kill it with these post.

    To be honest I can't wait for the readers that constantly hide their issues with diversity with blubber talk to leave comics. They're holding comics back and holding the market back. They prevented minority super heroes from being successful for so long and now finally, FINALLY, marvel has a slew of very successful diverse books since what, the early 2000's? Hell Black Panther became the first black hero from Marvel to have a book sell at the number one slot. That's absolutely ridiculous. Since the history of selling comics, after a freaking black president, we just NOW got our first black book to ever reach top of the charts from the Big 2? (The only other black hero to reach number one on the top chart was Spawn)

    So yes, I'm really hoping these readers leave, or move to an area that's much more focus on the classic heroes 1960's approach *cough* DC *cough* and leave Marvel to the readers who have no problem supporting a wide range of heroes, and not just the heroes that came out when some of us were in diapers (or even before we were born.)

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OttoMan View Post
    Isn't that what's been going on over at DC? Relaunch... Reboots... and Restarts???
    But with predominantly white characters, so it's different.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    LMAO, My bro you always kill it with these post.

    To be honest I can't wait for the readers that constantly hide their issues with diversity with blubber talk to leave comics. They're holding comics back and holding the market back. They prevented minority super heroes from being successful for so long and now finally, FINALLY, marvel has a slew of very successful diverse books since what, the early 2000's? Hell Black Panther became the first black hero from Marvel to have a book sell at the number one slot. That's absolutely ridiculous. Since the history of selling comics, after a freaking black president, we just NOW got our first black book to ever reach top of the charts from the Big 2? (The only other black hero to reach number one on the top chart was Spawn)

    So yes, I'm really hoping these readers leave, or move to an area that's much more focus on the classic heroes 1960's approach *cough* DC *cough* and leave Marvel to the readers who have no problem supporting a wide range of heroes, and not just the heroes that came out when some of us were in diapers (or even before we were born.)
    I think one of the main reasons you don't see a lot of POC characters reach the same numbers as their swm counterparts is because back in the day,many POC and minority characters were introduced as sidekicks or background characters that eventually gained prominence. When they try to take over or take the role of the main leads (Rhodes with Stark, Sam with Cap, Danvers with Marvel), even if they make their own identity, they are still seen as just replacement or second generation heroes for the original, even if they are really good on their own. But no matter how good Sam Wilson is as Cap, he can't live up to the legacy of Steve Rogers, which is why the typically don't sell as much.

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