View Poll Results: Happy with All New Marvel?

Voters
215. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    99 46.05%
  • No

    116 53.95%
Page 6 of 33 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 485
  1. #76
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,035

    Default

    These threads aren't really useful but I wanted to make some vaguely-related points:

    1. I think "forced diversity" or "diversity for its own sake" actually do exist, though not nearly as much as online commenters would have you believe. We've all seen situations where a non-white character is unconvincingly shoved into a group where it doesn't seem like they would realistically be (in Marvel, this goes back as far as the Howling Commandos), or where the princess suddenly knows martial arts because it's politically incorrect for her to be rescued. The thing is that there are no rules for what makes something feel forced, it's all in the execution, and that means it's one of those things we truly can't judge without seeing the end result. Riri may sound like a forced idea, but a lot of superheroes started with forced concepts. It really is all in the execution or one of Marvel's top characters now wouldn't be Deadpool.

    2. There may be an extra layer of fear now that fans have that their favorite characters won't come back because of the increased political scrutiny. What I mean is, when you had a legacy character before, it was normal to wait a while until the familiar character got back his (usually his) title. Because of the politicized nature of much press coverage lately, fans may worry that it will be un-PC for their favorites to come back. So if Rhodey became Iron Man today, there might be a lot of political backlash against putting Tony Back in the suit. I think this worry is way overblown: DC brought back the old Wally West and didn't care that a few people online called it racist. I don't think fear of being called racist affects the companies as much as fans believe it does. I just wonder if that's not part of what makes old-school fans so paranoid sometimes.

    3. I notice a lot of complaints - maybe not so much here, but elsewhere - about "forced" diversity are not so much about the comics themselves as the self-congratulatory interviews and press coverage, where Marvel credits itself for its daring in diversifying its universe in a superficial way (still not so much political or religious diversity among characters), or the think pieces that imply that "representation" is some kind of simple binary. This kind of coverage is annoying, but works of are don't deserve to be blamed for the stupid things that are written about them. In other words, never mind all the press releases, is Ms. Marvel/Kamala a good character (and I think most people agree she is)?

    4. Finally, one thing I've noticed that makes legacy characters better for me is if they respect the established characters. Sometimes a writer will have a legacy character or a new character show up and be better at everything than the old characters, or act openly "rebellious" with them. That makes it hard for me to take their side, because the familiar characters are like my friends, and I want them to be respected. I think one of the secrets to Kamala's success is that she is such a fan of the established characters, which means we can easily identify with her.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danileriver23 View Post
    I think one of the main reasons you don't see a lot of POC characters reach the same numbers as their swm counterparts is because back in the day,many POC and minority characters were introduced as sidekicks or background characters that eventually gained prominence. When they try to take over or take the role of the main leads (Rhodes with Stark, Sam with Cap, Danvers with Marvel), even if they make their own identity, they are still seen as just replacement or second generation heroes for the original, even if they are really good on their own. But no matter how good Sam Wilson is as Cap, he can't live up to the legacy of Steve Rogers, which is why the typically don't sell as much.
    Except the issues was the fact that minority characters didn't/doesn't sell was well as their white counterparts, it was the fact that minority heroes, until the new legacy revolution, didn't sell that well period since what, the early 2000's. Minority characters could not have a successful series because the comic book readership of yesterday did not support minority characters to allow them to be successful. As such, tons of minority solo books were being cancelled in less then 10 issues. Now, with Marvel's recent push with diversity, they have superseded their readership with a demographic that is much more similar to the general audience, and much more accepting/if not expecting diversity. Black Panther is putting in numbers that he's rarely pull before. Miles Morales sells better than his ultimate spider man counterpart. Current Thor sells better than Odinson has. Spider Gwen continues to dominate the charts. But the end of the day, the biggest advantage by far is that we finally have series that are successful and above the cancellation lines, and this doesn't take into account the sells receive via digital or tpb. (Especially since I myself am a digital only reader) This could not be said the same for earlier. The fact that we finally are having series where they aren't being cancelled after 5-7 issues is the biggest improvement we've seen in almost decades.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,840

    Default

    Is ANAD Marvel even still topical anymore?

    I remember seeing this list in another thread discussing ANAD, and it's of the titles Marvel is cancelling and renumbering in the Fall.

    ANAD Titles getting cancelled.

    A-Force
    Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D
    All-New Inhumans
    All-New Wolverine
    All-New X-Men
    Astonishing Ant-Man
    Carnage
    Contest of Champions
    Drax
    Extraordinary X-Men
    Guardians of Infinity
    Hyperion
    International Iron Man
    Karnak
    Mockingbird
    Nighthawk
    Old Man Logan
    Scarlet Witch
    Spider-Man/Deadpool
    Spidey
    Uncanny X-Men
    The Vision
    Web Warriors
    X-Men '92
    Angela: Queen of Hel
    Black Knight
    Hercules
    Howard the Duck
    Howling Commandos of S.H.I.E.L.D
    Illuminati
    Red Wolf
    Starbrand and Nightmask
    Weirdworld

    REPLACED:
    All-New, All-Different Avengers (replaced by Champions and Avengers)
    The Amazing Spider-Man (replaced by The Clone Conspiracy)
    Captain Marvel (renumbered)
    All-New Hawkeye (replaced by Hawkeye)
    Invincible Iron Man (renumbered)
    New Avengers (replaced by U.S.Avengers)
    Nova (renumbered)
    Rocket Raccoon and Groot (replaced by Rocket Raccoon)
    Ultimates (replaced by Ultimates2)
    Venom: Spaceknight (replaced by Venom)
    Star-Lord (renumbered)

  4. #79
    Fantastic Member Magnito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    465

    Default

    It's funny. I picked "no" as I am also unhappy, but for the opposite reasonas the OP. As a member of the LGBT community, I still feel underrepresented. So, I'm on the side that more diversity is still needed.

  5. #80
    Fantastic Member Haquim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    464

    Default

    Yes I'm pissed at Marvel.
    No it's not about diversity, I'm fine with diversity actually.
    It's about the need to take beloved characters who effectively made Marvel what it is now and not only dumping but feeling the need to vilify them in order to make a place for new characters whose only strength seems to be their diversity or race or sexual orientation. But those, while important and defying aspects of a character, shouldn't be its core and shouldn't be the rason to get rid of the original.

    I guess what pisses me off is this: I see what Marvel is doing now as taking the easy way out (Bendis way). Take an important character, get rid of him give its name to another character belonging to a minority, hope the new character sells BECAUSE you got rid of the original (and vilified/humiliated him) and stole its legacy. It's just lazy and unimmaginative imo. Build interesting characters who are strong on their own and ALSO are part of a minority, that should be the way to make minorities more relevant, not this sham Marvel's upper echelons are endorsing.
    Last edited by Haquim; 08-03-2016 at 02:24 PM.

  6. #81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    These threads aren't really useful but I wanted to make some vaguely-related points:

    1. I think "forced diversity" or "diversity for its own sake" actually do exist, though not nearly as much as online commenters would have you believe. We've all seen situations where a non-white character is unconvincingly shoved into a group where it doesn't seem like they would realistically be (in Marvel, this goes back as far as the Howling Commandos), or where the princess suddenly knows martial arts because it's politically incorrect for her to be rescued. The thing is that there are no rules for what makes something feel forced, it's all in the execution, and that means it's one of those things we truly can't judge without seeing the end result. Riri may sound like a forced idea, but a lot of superheroes started with forced concepts. It really is all in the execution or one of Marvel's top characters now wouldn't be Deadpool.

    2. There may be an extra layer of fear now that fans have that their favorite characters won't come back because of the increased political scrutiny. What I mean is, when you had a legacy character before, it was normal to wait a while until the familiar character got back his (usually his) title. Because of the politicized nature of much press coverage lately, fans may worry that it will be un-PC for their favorites to come back. So if Rhodey became Iron Man today, there might be a lot of political backlash against putting Tony Back in the suit. I think this worry is way overblown: DC brought back the old Wally West and didn't care that a few people online called it racist. I don't think fear of being called racist affects the companies as much as fans believe it does. I just wonder if that's not part of what makes old-school fans so paranoid sometimes.

    3. I notice a lot of complaints - maybe not so much here, but elsewhere - about "forced" diversity are not so much about the comics themselves as the self-congratulatory interviews and press coverage, where Marvel credits itself for its daring in diversifying its universe in a superficial way (still not so much political or religious diversity among characters), or the think pieces that imply that "representation" is some kind of simple binary. This kind of coverage is annoying, but works of are don't deserve to be blamed for the stupid things that are written about them. In other words, never mind all the press releases, is Ms. Marvel/Kamala a good character (and I think most people agree she is)?

    4. Finally, one thing I've noticed that makes legacy characters better for me is if they respect the established characters. Sometimes a writer will have a legacy character or a new character show up and be better at everything than the old characters, or act openly "rebellious" with them. That makes it hard for me to take their side, because the familiar characters are like my friends, and I want them to be respected. I think one of the secrets to Kamala's success is that she is such a fan of the established characters, which means we can easily identify with her.
    probably. but, by 'old school,' do you mean 'white' readers? because I'm black and have been reading since the 80s. I wasn't bothered by there being an overabundance of white characters, then. and i'm not bothered by there being a lot of non-white characters, now. I think it's kind of hypocritical for people to get all up in arms of change; only when it includes minorities. Bucky becoming Captain America was, comparatively, well received. and, before someone makes the argument, it wasn't organic. they just decided to bring him back from the dead, transform him into an assassin for the Russians, kill Steve, and make Bucky the new Captain America. people were very much expecting him to pick up the shield in the movie-verse, even.

  7. #82

    Default

    A big thing that seems to always be missing in this, which was stated a few posts ago by leo619, is the financial aspect of this. Marvel, to be a successful business, has has HAS to bring in new readers. They've chosen to try to do that by purposely reaching out to a wider range of potential readers than in the past. I'm in my mid-30s and, until the last few years, walking into any comic shop was basically going to be walking into a bunch of people like myself. White, male, let's be honest pretty dorky guys. Not everyone fit this mold but easily 80% did, despite my location being more diverse than that. Sales were slipping, my flcs owners knew it, and they were worried. Then Marvel rolled out their agenda (that dirty word. It's not social commentary on Marvel's part, it's money. You know, business.) Business picked up, their clientele is more diverse, they're making more money from more readers than before. Readers who had maybe just a passing interest in some comic stuff, but who now have fallen in love with some of the same characters the old readership has, or maybe some new characters. It's understandable that some people are upset. They liked things how they were. It as fun, it was comfortable , then all of a sudden your partner decides to run off with that guy from her pilates class and your world is turned upside down. But sometimes things change, and sometimes that means that you are, unfortunately, a sacrifice to the gods of commerce.
    I didn't like when Uncanny X-Force ignored that chamber was a mini Apocalypse while hunting down the big A. I didn't like how the multiverse was in peril in Time Runs Out and they just IGNORED my beloved Exiles who should have saved the day. I get love of characters, but this really boils down to other people getting to love characters too, and paying good money to do so. And if their money is more than your money, well, we'll have the characters more people will pay to read.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,035

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    probably. but, by 'old school,' do you mean 'white' readers?
    No, though there's plenty of overlap of course. I think I just meant people who get really attached to an older status quo and get hostile to changes. By that standard we're all old-school fans of something, and it doesn't much matter whether the new status quo is better.

    Like there were fans of the original X-Men who never warmed to the All-New, All-Different reboot (some of those Silver Age X-Men fans were responsible for reviving Jean Grey and launching X-Factor). Most people would not agree with this from an artistic standpoint, and Marvel would definitely not agree with it from a sales standpoint, since the original X-Men were never popular. But we can all understand how people get hostile when they see "their" franchise changed.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haquim View Post
    Yes I'm pissed at Marvel.
    No it's not about diversity, I'm fine with diversity actually.
    It's about the need to take beloved characters who effectively made Marvel what it is now and not only dumping but feeling the need to vilify them in order to make a place for new characters whose only strength seems to be their diversity or race or sexual orientation. But those, while important and defying aspects of a character, shouldn't be its core and shouldn't be the rason to get rid of the original.

    I guess what pisses me off is this: I see what Marvel is doing now as taking the easy way out (Bendis way). Take an important character, get rid of him give its name to another character belonging to a minority, hope the new character sells BECAUSE you got rid of the original (and vilified/humiliated him) and stole its legacy. It's just lazy and unimmaginative imo. Build interesting characters who are strong on their own and ALSO are part of a minority, that should be the way to make minorities more relevant, not this sham Marvel's upper echelons are endorsing.
    Which characters have actually gotten vilified?
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  10. #85
    Mighty Member Ptrvc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    Which characters have actually gotten vilified?
    Captain America -Now a Nazi (Yeah yeah its temporary/reality warp but its still going to tarnish the character going forward.)

    Thor -Made Unworthy, we're not told why, he just is.

    Hulk -It hasn't happened yet, but rumor is that Bendis is going to try to pin civilian deaths on him yet again, and the whole Hand thing is probably an attempt to make him some kinda of zombie/Ultimate Hulk, nothing more than a villain to be put down by the characters Bendis et al want to put over.

    Hawkeye -Made to shoot Bruce Banner in the back

    Here's the problem the same people who are saying 'the old heroes are corrupted and we need a change' are the same people who wrote said heroes that way, and the same people making the replacements.
    Last edited by Ptrvc; 08-03-2016 at 04:38 PM.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    Captain America -Now a Nazi (Yeah yeah its temporary/reality warp but its still going to tarnish the character going forward.)

    Thor -Made Unworthy, we're not told why, he just is.

    Hulk -It hasn't happened yet, but rumor is that Bendis is going to try to pin civilian deaths on him yet again, and the whole Hand thing is probably an attempt to make him some kinda of zombie/Ultimate Hulk, nothing more than a villain to be put down by the characters Bendis et al want to put over.

    Hawkeye -Made to shoot Bruce Banner in the back

    Here's the problem the same people who are saying 'the old heroes are corrupted and we need a change' are the same people who wrote said heroes that way, and the same people making the replacements.
    Captain America's storyline is going to "tarnish" his character about as much as Superior Spider-Man forever ruined Peter Parker's legacy. How is Steve getting brainwashed being used to prop up Sam Wilson as a better Captain America?

    Thor is getting a new ongoing to flesh that out.

    With Hulk, you're basing his vilification just on a prediction future storyline. Yeah ok.

    Hawkeye is headlining and leading his own team of Avengers after Civil War. Truly a victim of agenda against him.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  12. #87
    Incredible Member Dreaded Porcupine's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Back in limbo
    Posts
    597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    Hulk -It hasn't happened yet, but rumor is that Bendis is going to try to pin civilian deaths on him yet again, and the whole Hand thing is probably an attempt to make him some kinda of zombie/Ultimate Hulk, nothing more than a villain to be put down by the characters Bendis et al want to put over.
    Yeah I could see Bendis doing this to the Hulk. Even though other writers have always written how calculated Bruce was even when he was the Hulk to prevent loss of innocent life. WWH comes to mind. Bendis has always shit all over other writers, their characters and their characterization. I voted no.

  13. #88
    Fantastic Member regg215's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    490

    Default

    Ultimately, I don't really think that the replacement characters are the reason for people being angry with all new all different marvel. I know that some people only care about race or gender so that may be the reason some people are upset but In my opinion the story lines for the new character are the problem. I am all for diversity in comics, marvel needed to take steps to have their universe look more representative of it's readers and they have. But the way they have handled it has been what has made me angry. The Jane Foster Thor series goes out of it's way to show how much better she is than Odinson. From having enemies surrender because they respect her too much or having her beat enemies with relative ease. Sam became cap and almost instantly was at odds with steve in a story line which clearly made steve look like he was in the wrong and then Steve is turned into a hydra agent. Amadeus can somehow control the hulk better than banner, who is then killed off in an event. And Riri Williams has been in all of maybe 15 panels and she is somehow just as talented and smart as stark.

    All of these changes would be ok, if the writers really developed a story and had the readers see the new character grow into the role, while respecting the previous character but instead it's like the second the new character gets the title they are better and more effective at their role then there predecessor. The only change that I think has been handled well is Laura as Wolverine, because the book gives her a clearly different feel than Logan but also shows respect to Logan. Initially I was ok with some of the changes and thought they could lead to interesting stories, but I gave up on most of them early because I didn't want to read the new series since they spent most of their time championing the new character and finding ways to trash the classic character. I am happy that the new characters have reached out to new readers, I just wish they could have handled the changes with a little more respect to the classic characters and their fans.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Arfguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,934

    Default

    I voted no, but more do-not-care than hate. If the comics Marvel is publishing finds new readers, then they've done something right. It's just not for me.
    Find me on Instagram and Twitter - @arfguy
    https://whoaskd.com/

  15. #90
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Austria, Vienna
    Posts
    1,838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    Captain America's storyline is going to "tarnish" his character about as much as Superior Spider-Man forever ruined Peter Parker's legacy. How is Steve getting brainwashed being used to prop up Sam Wilson as a better Captain America?

    Thor is getting a new ongoing to flesh that out.

    With Hulk, you're basing his vilification just on a prediction future storyline. Yeah ok.

    Hawkeye is headlining and leading his own team of Avengers after Civil War. Truly a victim of agenda against him.
    Yes vilifying might just be to strong of a word but I can see where he is coming from:

    Rogers Hydra turn has the unfortunate side effect of people who are reading comics much more casually (or people who don't read them at all) going apeshit because to them Hydra = Nazis and Steve = the most overly patriotic character ever. Both are not true but who cares for facts?

    Thor hasn't only been taken down a notch, it's also that Jane FosThor does much better as Thor than he did. She got to fight Odin on equal grounds.

    Hawkeye didn't only kill Banner, he also was portrayed as the inferior Archer/ Fighter/ Hero in his/their last Solo Books.

    Banner did fine until CWII but in any case: All these characters were not only victims of storylines that "lessened" them, they were also outshined by their respective counterparts and as a fan of certain characters that can be annoying. I get that.

    Still, overall I am quite pleased with ANAD Marvel. Spiderwoman, AN Wolverine or Mockingbird rock my comic world right now other Favourites of mine do just fine and some sadly don't. That is live, thing will change, peace.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Superhero Movies 2017 - R A N K E D

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •