All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[mugiwara]

Hawkeye is headlining and leading his own team of Avengers after Civil War. Truly a victim of agenda against him.

Still, I can get how fans of classic Hawkeye may be unhappy.

Clint used to be a competent hero with a strong moral sense. He used to be respected

Now he is a joke and a loser, and his peers act as it that was always the case.
And he has no problem with killing people anymore.

A lot of characters change and evolve, but Clint? It's like he has been replaced by somebody else.

[jackolover]

Ultimately, I don't really think that the replacement characters are the reason for people being angry with all new all different marvel. I know that some people only care about race or gender so that may be the reason some people are upset but In my opinion the story lines for the new character are the problem. I am all for diversity in comics, marvel needed to take steps to have their universe look more representative of it's readers and they have. But the way they have handled it has been what has made me angry. The Jane Foster Thor series goes out of it's way to show how much better she is than Odinson. From having enemies surrender because they respect her too much or having her beat enemies with relative ease. Sam became cap and almost instantly was at odds with steve in a story line which clearly made steve look like he was in the wrong and then Steve is turned into a hydra agent. Amadeus can somehow control the hulk better than banner, who is then killed off in an event. And Riri Williams has been in all of maybe 15 panels and she is somehow just as talented and smart as stark.

All of these changes would be ok, if the writers really developed a story and had the readers see the new character grow into the role, while respecting the previous character but instead it's like the second the new character gets the title they are better and more effective at their role then there predecessor. The only change that I think has been handled well is Laura as Wolverine, because the book gives her a clearly different feel than Logan but also shows respect to Logan. Initially I was ok with some of the changes and thought they could lead to interesting stories, but I gave up on most of them early because I didn't want to read the new series since they spent most of their time championing the new character and finding ways to trash the classic character. I am happy that the new characters have reached out to new readers, I just wish they could have handled the changes with a little more respect to the classic characters and their fans.

It would be nice if there were two universes.. One with the old original characters being all serious and harsh. Two, the legacy characters being all light and humorous. I think there is a demarcation there between Adult settings and teen settings.

What Marvel have done is throw all these new Teen characters in with the Adult world, and it seems, for starters, rather arbitrarily loading the 616 with a "new emergence" of super heroes, like in the Start of the Silver Age heroes emerging, but, with the old school characters still in existence. It's sort of like purging the old schoolers with a flush of new schoolers.

[Kieran_Frost]

Scott Lang replaced Hank Pym, Bucky replaced Cap, Old Man Logan replaced original Logan, Incredible Hercules replaced Incredible Hulk... I've never saw such consistent thread creation made to yet again talk about why this is "upsetting" (because let's be honest this is the what? 10th thread this year on the same subject?)

[Prof. Warren]

Ultimately, I don't really think that the replacement characters are the reason for people being angry with all new all different marvel. I know that some people only care about race or gender so that may be the reason some people are upset but In my opinion the story lines for the new character are the problem. I am all for diversity in comics, marvel needed to take steps to have their universe look more representative of it's readers and they have. But the way they have handled it has been what has made me angry. The Jane Foster Thor series goes out of it's way to show how much better she is than Odinson. From having enemies surrender because they respect her too much or having her beat enemies with relative ease. Sam became cap and almost instantly was at odds with steve in a story line which clearly made steve look like he was in the wrong and then Steve is turned into a hydra agent. Amadeus can somehow control the hulk better than banner, who is then killed off in an event. And Riri Williams has been in all of maybe 15 panels and she is somehow just as talented and smart as stark.

All of these changes would be ok, if the writers really developed a story and had the readers see the new character grow into the role, while respecting the previous character but instead it's like the second the new character gets the title they are better and more effective at their role then there predecessor. The only change that I think has been handled well is Laura as Wolverine, because the book gives her a clearly different feel than Logan but also shows respect to Logan. Initially I was ok with some of the changes and thought they could lead to interesting stories, but I gave up on most of them early because I didn't want to read the new series since they spent most of their time championing the new character and finding ways to trash the classic character. I am happy that the new characters have reached out to new readers, I just wish they could have handled the changes with a little more respect to the classic characters and their fans.

I understand this argument to a point but don't agree with it. For one, it subtly speaks to the "I'm ok with diversity, really...just as long as we don't make women and POC out to be better than the white guys!" line of thinking. You know, I think a lot of fans feel threatened - sometimes on a subconscious level - by the incursion of women and POC and seeing these replacement characters able to match or out-perform white dudes in certain storylines can be a button pusher. The thing is, though, it would be pretty sh*tty if you introduced women and POC to these prominent roles only to make sure the reader knew they couldn't perform on the same level as the white guys who held these roles previously. Part of the motivation behind putting women and POC into these roles is to elevate the stature of women and POC and you can't elevate someone if you're taking pains to make it clear that they're not really ready for the big leagues. It can't always be "Well, you'll get there someday! Keep trying!"

As for making characters like Thor/Odison or Steve look bad, I disagree. I think the unworthy Thor plotline and the Hydra Cap plotline are only going to reinforce how strong both these characters are when all is said and done. And Amadeus only thinks he can control the Hulk. We've seen hints all along that he's not as in the driver's seat as he likes to think and it's far too soon to know what's going to go on with Tony.

[Prof. Warren]

Scott Lang replaced Hank Pym, Bucky replaced Cap, Old Man Logan replaced original Logan, Incredible Hercules replaced Incredible Hulk... I've never saw such consistent thread creation made to yet again talk about why this is "upsetting" (because let's be honest this is the what? 10th thread this year on the same subject?)

Yes, and Flash Thompson replaced Eddie Brock - and yet you never saw a thread complaining about it!

[Matternativ]

It would be nice if there were two universes.. One with the old original characters being all serious and harsh. Two, the legacy characters being all light and humorous. I think there is a demarcation there between Adult settings and teen settings.

It was called the Ultimate Universe and it died a while ago.

[gurkle]

The thing is, though, it would be pretty sh*tty if you introduced women and POC to these prominent roles only to make sure the reader knew they couldn't perform on the same level as the white guys who held these roles previously. Part of the motivation behind putting women and POC into these roles is to elevate the stature of women and POC and you can't elevate someone if you're taking pains to make it clear that they're not really ready for the big leagues. It can't always be "Well, you'll get there someday! Keep trying!"

I think that's sometimes true, but from a storytelling standpoint, it often makes more sense to portray the characters as struggling to live up to the original - because, let's face it, they are. Wally West and Kyle Rayner (both white dudes) were more interesting to the extent that they felt themselves overshadowed by their predecessor's legacies. Because they realistically would be.

When it seems like the writer is pushing a character's greatness too hard, it can feel like they're ignoring everything that's interesting about the replacement. When Jane Foster Thor is portrayed as super-awesome and anyone who questions her right to be Thor is an idiot, I feel that's sidestepping the interesting issues involved.

It's true that addressing these things makes it harder for the characters to achieve their positive social purpose; I personally am a little suspicious of art that tries to teach a good lesson (especially when it's a lesson that the writer and editor agree with) but everyone feels that art should reflect good values at least to some extent. But I think there's a danger in protecting characters from the legitimate questions other characters might have about them. Anyone who takes over the Iron Man armor can - and should - struggle with the fact that they're not the original Iron Man. If not it feels like the writers are hiding something.

[leo619]

I understand this argument to a point but don't agree with it. For one, it subtly speaks to the "I'm ok with diversity, really...just as long as we don't make women and POC out to be better than the white guys!" line of thinking. You know, I think a lot of fans feel threatened - sometimes on a subconscious level - by the incursion of women and POC and seeing these replacement characters able to match or out-perform white dudes in certain storylines can be a button pusher. The thing is, though, it would be pretty sh*tty if you introduced women and POC to these prominent roles only to make sure the reader knew they couldn't perform on the same level as the white guys who held these roles previously. Part of the motivation behind putting women and POC into these roles is to elevate the stature of women and POC and you can't elevate someone if you're taking pains to make it clear that they're not really ready for the big leagues. It can't always be "Well, you'll get there someday! Keep trying!"

As for making characters like Thor/Odison or Steve look bad, I disagree. I think the unworthy Thor plotline and the Hydra Cap plotline are only going to reinforce how strong both these characters are when all is said and done. And Amadeus only thinks he can control the Hulk. We've seen hints all along that he's not as in the driver's seat as he likes to think and it's far too soon to know what's going to go on with Tony.

Completely agree, too often minority characters of multiple types were displayed as inferior, second rate almost, and there's no way you can get other audiences to enter if you're constantly showing them as a second rate version of their white male counterpart. I mean, the clear example is the sales differences between Thor and Cap. Thor, displayed since the beginning as a complete bad-a$$ that takes names and one of the most dominating forces in the MU, has been selling extremely well, better than Odinson. Cap, was almost rescued almost every fight he had under rememder's pen. He was constantly showed as self doubting and not being able to live up to the name, and the sales reflect that. While Thor continues to sell at a fantastic rate, Cap has been dwindling more and more. Now he's not at cancellation levels and it looks like the series is settling at low 30's upper 20's which is still safe (plus digital and tpb sales). But I could only imagine how much better he would be selling if he wasn't displayed constantly as the inferior cap america.

And the classic fans brought this own themselves to begin with. If the classic fans actually supported minority characters when they took different methods, Marvel wouldn't have gone this route. Instead they complain why don't they make new characters, and then not support the new characters that comes out, which makes less of a "why don't they make new characters" and more of a "why does the characters keep infusing in books where I'm reading, place them in their own corner so they can go into limbo and die."
The classic fans hijacked the industry. The classic fans wouldn't allow diversity to flourish. The classic fans prevented new readers of demographic to enter the industry by not allowing the books to flourish enough to give it time to capture to readers. So the classic fans gets no sympathy from me when Marvel has finally found a way to incorporate new readers while kicking the classic fans who had a stranglehold on the industry to the curve "temporarily" (because all of these heroes eventually make their way back) to allow the industry to breathe again a flourish.

[Kieran_Frost]

Yes, and Flash Thompson replaced Eddie Brock - and yet you never saw a thread complaining about it!

Excellent addition too, good poster.

[gurkle]

Completely agree, too often minority characters of multiple types were displayed as inferior, second rate almost, and there's no way you can get other audiences to enter if you're constantly showing them as a second rate version of their white male counterpart. I mean, the clear example is the sales differences between Thor and Cap. Thor, displayed since the beginning as a complete bad-a$$ that takes names and one of the most dominating forces in the MU, has been selling extremely well, better than Odinson. Cap, was almost rescued almost every fight he had under rememder's pen. He was constantly showed as self doubting and not being able to live up to the name, and the sales reflect that. While Thor continues to sell at a fantastic rate, Cap has been dwindling more and more. Now he's not at cancellation levels and it looks like the series is settling at low 30's upper 20's which is still safe (plus digital and tpb sales). But I could only imagine how much better he would be selling if he wasn't displayed constantly as the inferior cap america.

I think you may be right that that's the reason for Jane's higher sales, but I find Sam as Cap much better artistically for the reasons you mentioned. (Of course Marvel has to do what sells better, but it's not my money so I can complain that what sells isn't always what's best.)

The classic fans hijacked the industry. The classic fans wouldn't allow diversity to flourish. The classic fans prevented new readers of demographic to enter the industry by not allowing the books to flourish enough to give it time to capture to readers.

Though you could just as easily blame the new readers for not getting interested in comics, and the companies for not finding enough things to get new readers interested. Comics, especially superhero comics, should never have become dependent on an aging fanbase, as they have mostly been since the '90s. But that's not really the aging fanbase's fault; ultimately it's the industry's fault, along with young people finding other things to do besides reading comics (though that's been going on at least since TV was invented).

[mugiwara]

And when Red Hulk was the new Hulk, and when Hope was the new Jean, nobody ever complain... oh, wait.

[leo619]

I think you may be right that that's the reason for Jane's higher sales, but I find Sam as Cap much better artistically for the reasons you mentioned. (Of course Marvel has to do what sells better, but it's not my money so I can complain that what sells isn't always what's best.)

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But being second rate and inferior has been the perception with black people since we've been brought over here, so that's not really the proper rate to attract an audience that has been hammered since societies introduction that black people are below everyone.
After all, there's a reason why Twitter had a #blackpanthersolit hashtag after his portrayal in Civil War, and Finn was literally non existent after the joke his character was treated. (Also seen at San Diego Comic Con, where I saw 3 Black Panther's and No Finns.)

Though you could just as easily blame the new readers for not getting interested in comics, and the companies for not finding enough things to get new readers interested. Comics, especially superhero comics, should never have become dependent on an aging fanbase, as they have mostly been since the '90s. But that's not really the aging fanbase's fault; ultimately it's the industry's fault, along with young people finding other things to do besides reading comics (though that's been going on at least since TV was invented).

Companies fault? Yes. New Readers? Definitely not. You're expecting new readers to be knowledgeable and have the opportunity to support a comic that either lacks marketing, or lacks the chance of gaining legs because the aging fanbase won't support it. That's the difference between what happened then, and what happened now. With prominent legacy characters, books survive long enough for new readers to be aware of the series and essentially support it, and now Marvel has found it's struck oil.

Now did the comic book companies also fail in the past? Most definitely, Marvel and DC in the past did not make it's minority characters that prominent. The only one who broke the barrier recently was Luke Cage with Bendis, and the aging fanbase was still complaining how luke cage, a original classic character, was being shoved down their throats. DC still fails with it's minority characters, and primary focuses on their classic characters, or well maybe just batman. So I do agree that companies was partially to blame as well because they were, and for DC still is, being treated as second rate. But the bulk of the respectability definitely lies on the aging fanbase who hijacked the comic book industry. Hence why I have no sympathy.

[gurkle]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But being second rate and inferior has been the perception with black people since we've been brought over here, so that's not really the proper rate to attract an audience that has been hammered since societies introduction that black people are below everyone.
After all, there's a reason why Twitter had a #blackpanthersolit hashtag after his portrayal in Civil War, and Finn was literally non existent after the joke his character was treated. (Also seen at San Diego Comic Con, where I saw 3 Black Panther's and No Finns.)

Without getting too much into the argument over what attracts minority readers (nothing attracts everyone, obviously), there are ways to portray someone as cool and interesting without making them unrealistically good at what they do, or without dismissing the scrutiny legacy characters might get from other characters. The question, for me, is not "what does this character say about a whole group of people?" (Though that may be a legitimate question to ask sometimes.) It's "do I believe this could happen, according to the rules of this universe?" And sometimes I just don't believe that someone who just started the job could instantly do it better than the people who did it for years.

It doesn't mean they have to be terrible or inferior. It just means, for example, something like the way the '70s X-Men reboot recognized that the new team was not as much a well-oiled unit as the original 5. An early story thread was about Cyclops and Xavier struggling with the fact that this new team couldn't just instinctively work together the way the old team eventually did. Few readers took it to mean that the O5 were "better" than the more ethnically and culturally diverse X-Men; it just made the story seem more real.

[leo619]

Without getting too much into the argument over what attracts minority readers (nothing attracts everyone, obviously), there are ways to portray someone as cool and interesting without making them unrealistically good at what they do, or without dismissing the scrutiny legacy characters might get from other characters. The question, for me, is not "what does this character say about a whole group of people?" (Though that may be a legitimate question to ask sometimes.) It's "do I believe this could happen, according to the rules of this universe?" And sometimes I just don't believe that someone who just started the job could instantly do it better than the people who did it for years.

It doesn't mean they have to be terrible or inferior. It just means, for example, something like the way the '70s X-Men reboot recognized that the new team was not as much a well-oiled unit as the original 5. An early story thread was about Cyclops and Xavier struggling with the fact that this new team couldn't just instinctively work together the way the old team eventually did. Few readers took it to mean that the O5 were "better" than the more ethnically and culturally diverse X-Men; it just made the story seem more real.

Well it depends upon which character we're referring to for one. For example, Sam has been a crime fighting hero since the 70's, with more experience than many of the heroes in today's comic book. He should be one of the last heroes portrayed as inferior in getting the job done, just by what he has gone through.

At the same time, there is going to be people who are just more naturally attuned with others. We can attribute that to real life. I'm an artist, I've been drawing ever since I'm a kid, but there's 16 year olds who can draw better than I can just because of the natural talent they have.

Combine that comic book characters already having most of the black heroes leading towards the inferior side, and the last thing we need is another one to the list.

[gurkle]

That's fair. I think legacy characters can certainly go to the opposite extreme and be too self-doubting, or be written as if they're rookies instead of experienced heroes.