All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[Pat Thomas]

Completely agree, too often minority characters of multiple types were displayed as inferior, second rate almost, and there's no way you can get other audiences to enter if you're constantly showing them as a second rate version of their white male counterpart. I mean, the clear example is the sales differences between Thor and Cap. Thor, displayed since the beginning as a complete bad-a$$ that takes names and one of the most dominating forces in the MU, has been selling extremely well, better than Odinson. Cap, was almost rescued almost every fight he had under rememder's pen. He was constantly showed as self doubting and not being able to live up to the name, and the sales reflect that. While Thor continues to sell at a fantastic rate, Cap has been dwindling more and more. Now he's not at cancellation levels and it looks like the series is settling at low 30's upper 20's which is still safe (plus digital and tpb sales). But I could only imagine how much better he would be selling if he wasn't displayed constantly as the inferior cap america.

And the classic fans brought this own themselves to begin with. If the classic fans actually supported minority characters when they took different methods, Marvel wouldn't have gone this route. Instead they complain why don't they make new characters, and then not support the new characters that comes out, which makes less of a "why don't they make new characters" and more of a "why does the characters keep infusing in books where I'm reading, place them in their own corner so they can go into limbo and die."
The classic fans hijacked the industry. The classic fans wouldn't allow diversity to flourish. The classic fans prevented new readers of demographic to enter the industry by not allowing the books to flourish enough to give it time to capture to readers. So the classic fans gets no sympathy from me when Marvel has finally found a way to incorporate new readers while kicking the classic fans who had a stranglehold on the industry to the curve "temporarily" (because all of these heroes eventually make their way back) to allow the industry to breathe again a flourish.

The classic (white guys) readers haven't stifled anything. They are still the majority of the readers of all comics, including the minority
led titles. The ones who choose not to read a book, for any reason, don't owe Marvel, the comic industry, or you a damn thing. People
who clamor for minority books need to step up and buy them when they are offered. And not just your own particular "group"; you need
to buy all of them, like you expect us to, at the risk of being labeled something you're not. Just quit blaming classic fans for the failures
of books that aren't marketed to them in the first place. Time to put up.

[steeplejack2112]

I agree with the OP to an extent, but for me I am slowly discovering that no matter who the character is, some of the bullshit being pumped out by Marvel right now isn't bad because of characters....it's bad because the writing/art/both is fucking terrible. I know that after October my Marvel pulls are going to go down, and I plan on dropping titles before then just because reading some of this shit is like slow execution. Incidentally though, it's not just Marvel who is guilty of this. I used to love DC a lot, but nowadays I am looking for any titles I can drop because wow....

[CentralPower]

The trick is to be flexible. I was reading "Iron Man" across Gillen and Taylor's runs.

I gave Bendis' run a chance. But, (as is typical for Bendis), it was readable enough but did not have any ideas beyond "Tony Stark is a cheeky little twit". (That said, I give Bendis credit for establishing that Stark did not recall the lead-in to "Secret Wars". It was quick and necessary clarification.) I dropped "Iron Man" and moved on to something else. (The tone and direction of comics change with creative teams. That is just how it is.)

[steeplejack2112]

The trick is to be flexible. I was reading "Iron Man" across Gillen and Taylor's runs.

I gave Bendis' run a chance. But, (as is typical for Bendis), it was readable enough but did not have any ideas beyond "Tony Stark is a cheeky little twit". (That said, I give Bendis credit for establishing that Stark did not recall the lead-in to "Secret Wars". It was quick and necessary clarification.) I dropped "Iron Man" and moved on to something else. (The tone and direction of comics change with creative teams. That is just how it is.)

I am finding most of what Bendis writes really boring.

[leo619]

The classic (white guys) readers haven't stifled anything. They are still the majority of the readers of all comics, including the minority
led titles. The ones who choose not to read a book, for any reason, don't owe Marvel, the comic industry, or you a damn thing. People
who clamor for minority books need to step up and buy them when they are offered. And not just your own particular "group"; you need
to buy all of them, like you expect us to, at the risk of being labeled something you're not. Just quit blaming classic fans for the failures
of books that aren't marketed to them in the first place. Time to put up.

1) Classic and white isn't universal. There are still a portion of classic readers who are non white,
and there's plenty of new readers who are white.

2)People who asked for minority books were supporting it back then, but there numbers were too small to where they didn't make a difference. Now with the new legacy program Marvel's been doing, Marvel has established a new readers demographic to where books can survive without classic readers avoiding it like the plague.

So as you can see, people are definitely putting up, and it's this exact reason why classic readers are upset. Because no longer are we at a time frame where minority characters crash and burn within 5 issues.

[ZephyrSurf]

I think self doubt is nither a necessity nor a detriment to legacy characters. As long as th self doubt makes sense in context.

Kyle Rayner had a lot of self doubt in comparing himself to Hal Jordan. But that wasn't just inherently due to Hal being awesome, it was a core part of Rayner had he had confidence issues and personal woes. Those same hang ups were not present in Jon Stewart or Guy Gardner, cause they wouldn't act like that.

Terry McGinnis is a popular legacy character to Batman, and he god damn owns it. Cause that's his persona.


It's the difference between Spencer's Sam and Remender's Sam. Remender's Sam keeps questioning if he's good enough, which makes no sense, given he's always been sure enough and confident in his abilities as a hero.

Spencer's Sam also has doubt, but a much more realistic sort. Spencer's Sam doesn't doubt his ability. He doubts and questions people's perception of him, which is something entirely different and doesn't undermine his competency as a hero.

[Ptrvc]

Scott Lang replaced Hank Pym, Bucky replaced Cap, Old Man Logan replaced original Logan, Incredible Hercules replaced Incredible Hulk... I've never saw such consistent thread creation made to yet again talk about why this is "upsetting" (because let's be honest this is the what? 10th thread this year on the same subject?)

I'm not so sure about the rest but Incredible Hercules only took over the numbering, we had a book featuring Skaar and Banner which made it very clear from he beginning that Hulk was coming back. Hulk's return was in fact a main plot point of the whole story.

I know that Hulk fans were complaining about Red Hulk from the beginning, and I know that when Cap was killed off after Civil War I a lot of people were unhappy with how it went down (something about facebook?)

Logan was replaced by Laura, which I'll admit I'm not sure how Wolverine fans feel as I don't frequent the X-Boards very often.

Scott Lang replaced Hank in 1979, so yeah I don't suspect there were a lot of threads on the internet about that subject.

But more to the point I don't really see why those of us who are unhappy with the way Marvel has been doing things lately should stop voicing our opinion. It won't ever be heard otherwise. Its not like comic book boards have ever not had tons of people harping on the same issues.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Completely agree, too often minority characters of multiple types were displayed as inferior, second rate almost, and there's no way you can get other audiences to enter if you're constantly showing them as a second rate version of their white male counterpart. I mean, the clear example is the sales differences between Thor and Cap. Thor, displayed since the beginning as a complete bad-a$$ that takes names and one of the most dominating forces in the MU, has been selling extremely well, better than Odinson. Cap, was almost rescued almost every fight he had under rememder's pen. He was constantly showed as self doubting and not being able to live up to the name, and the sales reflect that. While Thor continues to sell at a fantastic rate, Cap has been dwindling more and more. Now he's not at cancellation levels and it looks like the series is settling at low 30's upper 20's which is still safe (plus digital and tpb sales). But I could only imagine how much better he would be selling if he wasn't displayed constantly as the inferior cap america.

And the classic fans brought this own themselves to begin with. If the classic fans actually supported minority characters when they took different methods, Marvel wouldn't have gone this route. Instead they complain why don't they make new characters, and then not support the new characters that comes out, which makes less of a "why don't they make new characters" and more of a "why does the characters keep infusing in books where I'm reading, place them in their own corner so they can go into limbo and die."
The classic fans hijacked the industry. The classic fans wouldn't allow diversity to flourish. The classic fans prevented new readers of demographic to enter the industry by not allowing the books to flourish enough to give it time to capture to readers. So the classic fans gets no sympathy from me when Marvel has finally found a way to incorporate new readers while kicking the classic fans who had a stranglehold on the industry to the curve "temporarily" (because all of these heroes eventually make their way back) to allow the industry to breathe again a flourish.

So you are saying we should buy what you want us to read instead of what we want to read? Sorry but I will buy and read whatever I want to. I don't subscribe to PC or its agenda. Besides we classic fans are what made Marvel what they are today. If Marvel with their new PC agenda wants to bite the hand that feeds them then fine. There are plenty of other companies that want to entertain their readers without pushing an agenda we classic fans can go to. And FYI some of us classic fans support minority characters. But since you generalized all of us classic fans as the same I won't even argue with you. I was reading Luke Cage Hero fo Hire long before you probably even picked up your first comic book. And my number two pull lately has been Spider Woman. Marvel is going about this the wrong way. They are trashing classic heroes to push their agenda and alienating a lot of their fans in the process. And you can't just shove a new character like Riri in our faces and say buy it or you are racist and a bigot. Typical PC agenda. Maybe try developing the character with a well written story and back drop first without trashing the established character at the same time. Just my opinion.

[leo619]

I think self doubt is nither a necessity nor a detriment to legacy characters. As long as th self doubt makes sense in context.

Kyle Rayner had a lot of self doubt in comparing himself to Hal Jordan. But that wasn't just inherently due to Hal being awesome, it was a core part of Rayner had he had confidence issues and personal woes. Those same hang ups were not present in Jon Stewart or Guy Gardner, cause they wouldn't act like that.

Terry McGinnis is a popular legacy character to Batman, and he god damn owns it. Cause that's his persona.


It's the difference between Spencer's Sam and Remender's Sam. Remender's Sam keeps questioning if he's good enough, which makes no sense, given he's always been sure enough and confident in his abilities as a hero.

Spencer's Sam also has doubt, but a much more realistic sort. Spencer's Sam doesn't doubt his ability. He doubts and questions people's perception of him, which is something entirely different and doesn't undermine his competency as a hero.

Exactly, and this was why I was referring to Rememder's Sam and not Spencer. Sam more or less questions people accepting him as Captain America, which is completely understandable. But Spencer sam is able to kick butt at the same time. Rememder wrote him as if he just started out last week, and that just didn't make any sense. While I appreciate the big name placed on the book, I do feel as if Spencer was the first author on Captain America, Sam would be in better shape today.

[leo619]

So you are saying we should buy what you want us to read instead of what we want to read? Sorry but I will buy and read whatever I want to. I don't subscribe to PC or its agenda. Besides we classic fans are what made Marvel what they are today. If Marvel with their new PC agenda wants to bite the hand that feeds them then fine. There are plenty of other companies that want to entertain their readers without pushing an agenda we classic fans can go to. And FYI some of us classic fans support minority characters. But since you generalized all of us classic fans as the same I won't even argue with you. I was reading Luke Cage Hero fo Hire long before you probably even picked up your first comic book. And my number two pull lately has been Spider Woman. Marvel is going about this the wrong way. They are trashing classic heroes to push their agenda and alienating a lot of their fans in the process. And you can't just shove a new character like Riri in our faces and say buy it or you are racist and a bigot. Typical PC agenda. Maybe try developing the character with a well written story and back drop first without trashing the established character at the same time. Just my opinion.

Um, catering to the classic fans or making mostly white heroes is an agenda. It's just an acceptable agenda to many of the classic fans because the characters were white. When DC made Superman and Batman, that's an agenda. When Stan Lee created Spider Man, Captain America, and Thor, that was an agenda, to market to the white audience of that time frame who was largely racist and thus wouldn't have accepted the heroes if they weren't white. So yes, all your "classic" heroes are filled with agenda's, especially Captain America which is literally interwoven with agenda.

Secondly, I didn't generalize all classic fans. I generalize the majority. We all know there was a few classic fans that had no problem accepting minority heroes. But as we all know, they didn't make up the majority. If they did, we wouldn't be in the place where we are today. So to clarify and put it bluntly.

If you're a classic fan who fully supported the minority heroes that came out that kept failing, and you're upset about the current state, sadly you guys are bystanders to the majority, but the fortunate side is all of the heroes that you're upset about will be reverted back to their status shortly, before something else major happens *cough* hydra cap *cough*

If you're a classic fan that only supported the mainstream characters and didn't support minority characters, I have no sympathy for you and I hope you leave marvel comics asap as you hijacked the comic book industry.

If you're a classic fan that states you supported minority heroes just to prop up your stance of about how you dislike the current state of Marvel comics, but you know full well you didn't support any of the minority heroes, you're even worse and again, I can't wait for Marvel's change in direction to kick you out of comics.

[Mary Jay]

1) Classic and white isn't universal. There are still a portion of classic readers who are non white,
and there's plenty of new readers who are white.

2)People who asked for minority books were supporting it back then, but there numbers were too small to where they didn't make a difference. Now with the new legacy program Marvel's been doing, Marvel has established a new readers demographic to where books can survive without classic readers avoiding it like the plague.

So as you can see, people are definitely putting up, and it's this exact reason why classic readers are upset. Because no longer are we at a time frame where minority characters crash and burn within 5 issues.

This is not true at all. At least for me, a classic reader, it isn't. I don't want books to fail. I never wished for books to fail, even those I'm not interested in. There are people enjoying those books, those characters, and I'm glad that they have that. There are characters I'm interested in, mostly the classic ones, yes. So I'll be buying those books. Most of the new characters don't do anything for me, so I won't spend my hard-earned money on something I'm not interested in just to avoid being called a racist... Classic readers aren't upset that there are successful new minority characters. They're upset because their favorite characters are (temporarily) removed from the storyline and they can't read about them. Sometimes I feel like people tend to assume the worst in others...

Classic readers don't hate minority heroes. They like Tony Stark and Bruce Banner and Thor Odinson and Steve Rogers. They want to read about them. They don't mind the other heroes, as long as they can continue to read about their favorite ones.

I fail to see what's so hard to understand about this, personally. Explain to me again why my interest in Hank Pym (to which I relate because of his mental insecurities, btw... not because of a shallow thing like the color of his skin...) and wanting to read about him makes me a racist? We're being labeled falsely and called out because of something we like... and I feel it's wrong.

The classic (white guys) readers haven't stifled anything. They are still the majority of the readers of all comics, including the minority
led titles. The ones who choose not to read a book, for any reason, don't owe Marvel, the comic industry, or you a damn thing. People
who clamor for minority books need to step up and buy them when they are offered. And not just your own particular "group"; you need
to buy all of them, like you expect us to, at the risk of being labeled something you're not. Just quit blaming classic fans for the failures
of books that aren't marketed to them in the first place. Time to put up.

Quoted in agreement.

[Matternativ]

Um, catering to the classic fans or making mostly white heroes is an agenda. It's just an acceptable agenda to many of the classic fans because the characters were white. When DC made Superman and Batman, that's an agenda. When Stan Lee created Spider Man, Captain America, and Thor, that was an agenda, to market to the white audience of that time frame who was largely racist and thus wouldn't have accepted the heroes if they weren't white. So yes, all your "classic" heroes are filled with agenda's, especially Captain America which is literally interwoven with agenda.

Secondly, I didn't generalize all classic fans. I generalize the majority. We all know there was a few classic fans that had no problem accepting minority heroes. But as we all know, they didn't make up the majority. If they did, we wouldn't be in the place where we are today. So to clarify and put it bluntly.

If you're a classic fan who fully supported the minority heroes that came out that kept failing, and you're upset about the current state, sadly you guys are bystanders to the majority, but the fortunate side is all of the heroes that you're upset about will be reverted back to their status shortly, before something else major happens *cough* hydra cap *cough*

If you're a classic fan that only supported the mainstream characters and didn't support minority characters, I have no sympathy for you and I hope you leave marvel comics asap as you hijacked the comic book industry.

If you're a classic fan that states you supported minority heroes just to prop up your stance of about how you dislike the current state of Marvel comics, but you know full well you didn't support any of the minority heroes, you're even worse and again, I can't wait for Marvel's change in direction to kick you out of comics.

He used the term "pc agenda". I think that alone says it all.

[skyvolt2000]

They are trashing classic heroes to push their agenda and alienating a lot of their fans in the process.

What Leo619 is trying to point out is these books are getting attacked before the FIRST preview is out.

We got too many folks screaming we don't want the books to be MADE.

I can understand Tony Stark & Bruce Banner fans being upset. Even Rich Ryder fans. If your favorite is gone-it's understandable.

What many don't get is the faction of folks who NEVER support Tony, Bruce & others going off constantly.

No matter what Marvel tries with a minority-that faction to gripe is ready to fire off with the message of we don't women, LGBTG or POC in ANY book-no matter if we don't read it.


It's funny we hear "I don't owe Marvel anything to buy a book about a minority" excuse but I have seen folks on here say they buy (insert straight white male) book out of HABIT no matter how bad they hate the story. I have even seen comments of "it's my DUTY to support Marvel." I have even see ENTITLEMENT-"I support Marvel books and I am ENTITLED to have minority free books."

The question will keep being asked-how does Gwenpool, Miles, Ms Marvel, Sam Wilson, Nighthawk and others of color, LGBT & sexuality HINDER reading the other 15+ books by Marvel?

For the Klingon readers-
yu' pol ghaH ghel-chay' does gwenpool, QInvam miles, ms Marvel, sam wilson, Nighthawk latlhpu' je color, lgbt je sexuality hinder latlh 15 + paq pong yay' laD?


Because REALITY is Marvel will not stop trying no matter how many of you leave or toss out empty threats of leaving. You REALLY want to stop what you are seeing? Really? Really? I'll give the way to do that.

Instead of tossing out insults-just say "I looked at the preview and was not interested or I can't fit it in my budget."

Keep the sales up of your favorites and that might keep the Riri Williams from taking over and DISCUSS them in threads.

If you have legit gripes about these books at least read them (and yes that does mean finding ways to read them for free) and then comment.

If more folks go off on CONTENT it might convince Marvel to try other ways where we don't get Tony and friends replaced.

These complaint threads over WHO is on the cover doesn't help.Because they provide Marvel the out that comic book fans made the book not sale. You talk content and that might make Marvel stop and try something different.

[skyvolt2000]

This is not true at all. At least for me, a classic reader, it isn't. There are people enjoying those books, those characters, and I'm glad that they have that. There are characters I'm interested in, mostly the classic ones, yes. So I'll be buying those books. Classic readers aren't upset that there are successful new minority characters. They're upset because their favorite characters are (temporarily) removed from the storyline and they can't read about them.

Classic readers don't hate minority heroes. They like Tony Stark and Bruce Banner and Thor Odinson and Steve Rogers. They want to read about them. They don't mind the other heroes, as long as they can continue to read about their favorite ones.
.

Aren't these guys around? Aside from Bruce and soon Tony. Like with the X-Men fans who cry Marvel is trying to get rid of them-I see books with all these folks around.

Most of the new characters don't do anything for me, so I won't spend my hard-earned money on something I'm not interested in just to avoid being called a racist...

Where has anyone said that? The issue has been guys like YOU who are being HONEST are being overshadowed by the trolls. It's not you it's them that are causing the issues.

Sometimes I feel like people tend to assume the worst in others...

Because they have been given plenty of reason to.

Ask the Black Panther fans about how nasty X-Men fans, Storm fans & trolls went HAM in his Appreciation Thread that is had to be closed MORE than once.

Take Batman fans-Duke appeared in 1 page of his last issue and all I have seen are Batman fans complain how he ruined the book.

I don't want books to fail. I never wished for books to fail, even those I'm not interested in.

You are RARE. If more folks took your stance we wouldn't see all these complaint threads.

[leo619]

This is not true at all. At least for me, a classic reader, it isn't. I don't want books to fail. I never wished for books to fail, even those I'm not interested in. There are people enjoying those books, those characters, and I'm glad that they have that. There are characters I'm interested in, mostly the classic ones, yes. So I'll be buying those books. Most of the new characters don't do anything for me, so I won't spend my hard-earned money on something I'm not interested in just to avoid being called a racist... Classic readers aren't upset that there are successful new minority characters. They're upset because their favorite characters are (temporarily) removed from the storyline and they can't read about them. Sometimes I feel like people tend to assume the worst in others...

Classic readers don't hate minority heroes. They like Tony Stark and Bruce Banner and Thor Odinson and Steve Rogers. They want to read about them. They don't mind the other heroes, as long as they can continue to read about their favorite ones.

I fail to see what's so hard to understand about this, personally. Explain to me again why my interest in Hank Pym (to which I relate because of his mental insecurities, btw... not because of a shallow thing like the color of his skin...) and wanting to read about him makes me a racist? We're being labeled falsely and called out because of something we like... and I feel it's wrong.




Quoted in agreement.

It's not about understanding, because everyone understand why many classic readers enjoy the classic characters (and yes the skin color does play a major role in these characters even though many refuse to deny it, otherwise in the 2000's we wouldn't have had so many failed minority books) It's the cause and effect that's being addressed and why no sympathy is given to classic readers. Classic readers are attached to their "agenda" of nostalgia, there's that dirty word again. That familiarity that they associate with their childhood. But because they're so attached to that agenda, they ignore and bypass any sort of product not associated with their familiarity, without at all willing to give it a try. They ignore it and often times ridicule it without even attempting to give it a chance.If it is not within their small bubble they're so closely associated with, they give it the middle finger for it to die in the land of limbo.

As mentioned before, it's this concept that literally put a stranglehold on the comic book industry, because if it didn't fit within that little bubble of status quo, it was cast aside. No progression was able to be made, new markets couldn't be form because there wasn't enough time for these books to given a chance, literally the entire industry was handcuffed due to this agenda. It essentially was a stand still, and while other form of mediums such as television and movies began to progress in diversity and reflect the modern world, the comic book industry still looked like it was stuck in the 1960's, not an appeasing site for anyone not of an older white male demographic.

Marvel knew that if they did not change to reflect the changing american demographic, it's comics division would perish. Not only that but the fact that comics looked so backwards in comparison to other mediums must have been a major issue for the company who prided itself on "reflecting the outside world." So it played with this concept of familiarity. It knew that as long as the major players were in play, nothing would change. The only way progress would be made is if the main players were taken away either temporarily (Captain America, Thor) or permanently (Ultimate Spider Man) Because of this, "enough" of the classic readers would be interested in the new players who role fits within that familiarity. You combine that with outside press so non traditional comic book readers would be interested in this process and *bam* success.

The change has been drastic in just the past 5 years. In the 2011 San Diego Comic Con, the diversity panel revealed that over 89% of the comic book demographic was white males over the age of 28. That means that literally 11% of the demographic was either white women, minorities, or younger white male readers. Again, a stranglehold on the industry. Just two years ago, and the amount of women readership tripled to 30% of the comic book readership, and that continues to climb every year. And that's just the women readership, let alone other demographics such as minorities, LGBT, young readers, etc.

So this is the cause and effect that takes place from the classic readers not willing to give new products a chance. Essentially it was either comics continue to look like they were in the 1960's while the current year was 2050, or Marvel smarten up and realizes it needs to cater to all audiences and figure out a way to do so. If classic readers were willing to give new characters a chance, this situation wouldn't have happened. Instead, no one was willing to budge to give women and minority characters a chance and Marvel had to carve it's own route. And that's why I have no sympathy for classic readers. You had decades to give new characters a chance, now marvel has found it's method and that temporarily means at your expense. So if that forces you to leave comics because you're not the primary customer being catered too anymore, than good riddance.