All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Um, catering to the classic fans or making mostly white heroes is an agenda. It's just an acceptable agenda to many of the classic fans because the characters were white. When DC made Superman and Batman, that's an agenda. When Stan Lee created Spider Man, Captain America, and Thor, that was an agenda, to market to the white audience of that time frame who was largely racist and thus wouldn't have accepted the heroes if they weren't white. So yes, all your "classic" heroes are filled with agenda's, especially Captain America which is literally interwoven with agenda.

Secondly, I didn't generalize all classic fans. I generalize the majority. We all know there was a few classic fans that had no problem accepting minority heroes. But as we all know, they didn't make up the majority. If they did, we wouldn't be in the place where we are today. So to clarify and put it bluntly.

If you're a classic fan who fully supported the minority heroes that came out that kept failing, and you're upset about the current state, sadly you guys are bystanders to the majority, but the fortunate side is all of the heroes that you're upset about will be reverted back to their status shortly, before something else major happens *cough* hydra cap *cough*

If you're a classic fan that only supported the mainstream characters and didn't support minority characters, I have no sympathy for you and I hope you leave marvel comics asap as you hijacked the comic book industry.

If you're a classic fan that states you supported minority heroes just to prop up your stance of about how you dislike the current state of Marvel comics, but you know full well you didn't support any of the minority heroes, you're even worse and again, I can't wait for Marvel's change in direction to kick you out of comics.

I still think Marvel is going about it the wrong way. I've been collecting comics since the 70's. An agenda back then is not like an agenda today. Back then it was lets write comic books and make money. Again it's not like today. It's let's push our poltical beliefs like it's the Huffington Post. That is propoganda. Stan in the 60's was very careful to keep politics and biases out of the comic books and stay neutral. Yeah he catered to white boys because the only color he saw was green. And white boys made up the biggest chunk of the market. His job was to write and sell. There was no way he was catering to any group that would have hurt sales and that was a smart business move. Right or wrong. The Black Panther was a second stringer but was always written very well and was a long time Avenger. Smart, noble, dignified and respected by other heroes as a hero and king. Luke may have been written stereotypically in the 70's but that was not out of prejudice. More misunderstanding of the culture. I still liked him. He could kick ass like the Hulk, Thing and Thor. Look at Northstar in the 80's. Marvel introduced his character as gay slowly and it worked. A story. A backdrop. Characterization. He was my second favorite Alphan after Roger Boch's the paraplegic. As far as I'm concerned he is a minority. I tend to like less mainstream characters. My favorite villain is my name and avatar the Porcupine. A loser by anyones standards. Marvel just decides to make every long standing character a minority. I'm OK with Jane Foster. She's been around. She has a story. A back drop. Characterization. Sam Wilson has been around since the 60-70's. Another of my favorite titles from yesteryear. Captain America and the Falcon. Equal billing. Cap is Cap. He has been Cap since the 40's. He will always be Cap. Sam earned his stripes as his own character but Marvel felt the need to turn Cap into Hydra and make him look bad while giving a successful minority in his own right his mantle. That's not a PC agenda? Bruce Banner was always either written very well or poorly. Good writers make good characters. Now the most PC person at Marvel, Bendis, kills him off. The same Bendis who criticizes fans for not being “forward thinkers.“ Am I missing something? Was the constitution abolished. Has free thinking and differing opinions been banned? Since when do we all have to be “forward thinkers?“ Marvel is forcing an agenda and it is obvious. Marvel should focus on trying to include everyone and not demonize and alienate us “classic“ white boys. I take offense to that quite frankly. Their PC agenda might just backfire on them. Sales in business is everything. Look at the votes in this poll. Half of the people in this poll are dissatisfied with Marvel. Marvel should focus more on writing good comic books and less on promoting an agenda. Again just my opinion.

[ed2962]

The classic (white guys) readers haven't stifled anything. They are still the majority of the readers of all comics, including the minority
led titles. The ones who choose not to read a book, for any reason, don't owe Marvel, the comic industry, or you a damn thing. People
who clamor for minority books need to step up and buy them when they are offered. And not just your own particular "group"; you need
to buy all of them, like you expect us to, at the risk of being labeled something you're not. Just quit blaming classic fans for the failures
of books that aren't marketed to them in the first place. Time to put up.

Some of these so-called PC titles are selling which is why Marvel is doing more.

[ed2962]

I still think Marvel is going about it the wrong way. I've been collecting comics since the 70's. An agenda back then is not like an agenda today. Back then it was lets write comic books and make money. Again it's not like today. It's let's push our poltical beliefs like it's the Huffington Post. That is propoganda. Stan in the 60's was very careful to keep politics and biases out of the comic books and stay neutral. Yeah he catered to white boys because the only color he saw was green. And white boys made up the biggest chunk of the market. His job was to write and sell. There was no way he was catering to any group that would have hurt sales and that was a smart business move. Right or wrong. The Black Panther was a second stringer but was always written very well and was a long time Avenger. Smart, noble, dignified and respected by other heroes as a hero and king. Luke may have been written stereotypically in the 70's but that was not out of prejudice. More misunderstanding of the culture. I still liked him. He could kick ass like the Hulk, Thing and Thor. Look at Northstar in the 80's. Marvel introduced his character as gay slowly and it worked. A story. A backdrop. Characterization. He was my second favorite Alphan after Roger Boch's the paraplegic. As far as I'm concerned he is a minority. I tend to like less mainstream characters. My favorite villain is my name and avatar the Porcupine. A loser by anyones standards. Marvel just decides to make every long standing character a minority. I'm OK with Jane Foster. She's been around. She has a story. A back drop. Characterization. Sam Wilson has been around since the 70's. Another of my favorite titles from yesteryear. Captain America and the Falcon. Equal billing. Cap is Cap. He has been Cap since the 40's. He will always be Cap. Sam earned his stripes as his own character but Marvel felt the need to turn Cap into Hydra and make him look bad while giving a successful minority in his own right his mantle. That's not a PC agenda? Bruce Banner was always either written very well or poorly. Good writers make good characters. Now the most PC person at Marvel, Bendis, kills him off. The same Bendis who criticizes fans for not being “forward thinkers.“ Am I missing something? Was the constitution abolished. Has free thinking and differing opinions been banned? Since when do we all have to be “forward thinkers?“ Marvel is forcing an agenda and it is obvious. Marvel should focus on trying to include everyone and not demonize and alienate us “classic“ white boys. I take offense to that quite frankly. Their PC agenda might just backfire on them. Sales in business is everything. Look at the votes in this poll. Half of the people in this poll are dissatisfied with Marvel. Marvel should focus more on writing good comic books and less on promoting an agenda. Again just my opinion.

But Cap isn't really a Hydra agent, it's hijinx by the Skull. Tony isn't really dead, you know he's coming back. As have most of these classic heroes...

[Doctor Know]

I read 60s Captain Marvel a few weeks ago, and there was a subplot of Red Skull controlling Cap's body/mind. Then in the 70s I think there was another instance of Skull trying to turn Cap into a Nazi. During Brubaker's Cap run, Skull tried to use a machine to transfer his mind into Cap's body. Now Cap is a secret Hydra member thanks to a cosmic cube of the Red Skull. Have I missed any? How many times is this plot thread going to be done and redone?

[leo619]

I still think Marvel is going about it the wrong way. I've been collecting comics since the 70's. An agenda back then is not like an agenda today. Back then it was lets write comic books and make money. Again it's not like today. It's let's push our poltical beliefs like it's the Huffington Post. That is propoganda. Stan in the 60's was very careful to keep politics and biases out of the comic books and stay neutral. Yeah he catered to white boys because the only color he saw was green. And white boys made up the biggest chunk of the market. His job was to write and sell. There was no way he was catering to any group that would have hurt sales and that was a smart business move. Right or wrong. The Black Panther was a second stringer but was always written very well and was a long time Avenger. Smart, noble, dignified and respected by other heroes as a hero and king. Luke may have been written stereotypically in the 70's but that was not out of prejudice. More misunderstanding of the culture. I still liked him. He could kick ass like the Hulk, Thing and Thor. Look at Northstar in the 80's. Marvel introduced his character as gay slowly and it worked. A story. A backdrop. Characterization. He was my second favorite Alphan after Roger Boch's the paraplegic. As far as I'm concerned he is a minority. I tend to like less mainstream characters. My favorite villain is my name and avatar the Porcupine. A loser by anyones standards. Marvel just decides to make every long standing character a minority. I'm OK with Jane Foster. She's been around. She has a story. A back drop. Characterization. Sam Wilson has been around since the 60-70's. Another of my favorite titles from yesteryear. Captain America and the Falcon. Equal billing. Cap is Cap. He has been Cap since the 40's. He will always be Cap. Sam earned his stripes as his own character but Marvel felt the need to turn Cap into Hydra and make him look bad while giving a successful minority in his own right his mantle. That's not a PC agenda? Bruce Banner was always either written very well or poorly. Good writers make good characters. Now the most PC person at Marvel, Bendis, kills him off. The same Bendis who criticizes fans for not being “forward thinkers.“ Am I missing something? Was the constitution abolished. Has free thinking and differing opinions been banned? Since when do we all have to be “forward thinkers?“ Marvel is forcing an agenda and it is obvious. Marvel should focus on trying to include everyone and not demonize and alienate us “classic“ white boys. I take offense to that quite frankly. Their PC agenda might just backfire on them. Sales in business is everything. Look at the votes in this poll. Half of the people in this poll are dissatisfied with Marvel. Marvel should focus more on writing good comic books and less on promoting an agenda. Again just my opinion.

Um no, that's exactly how it was back then as it is now, the only difference is who they are attempting to market to. Captain America didn't just happen, he was a spawn of agenda and propoganda based off of the world war time frame, again catering and having an agenda and catering towards white people. It's not like their agenda change. People just excuse it because back then, comics only catered to white people. Now that comics is catering to everyone, that's when people have a problem. But comics has always been about the agenda, back then it was catering to only white people because white people back then was much more racist and wouldn't support minority projects. Now comics agenda is focusing on a more inclusive environment catering to everyone. But comics has always had an agenda, which is to make money. Just how they are doing it is differently now then it was back then.

[regg215]

It is frustrating that these discussions always seem to turn into classic fans vs. new fans, with both sides essentially claiming that the other is destroying comics. Classic fans get stereotyped as old angry white guys who can't tolerate anything that looks different than them and new fans get stereotyped as a bunch of overly pc people pushing an agenda that wants to destroy all classic characters. While there are some fans who are truly driven by things like that, I believe that most comic fans want everybody to be represented but they don't like that in order for that to happen their favorite characters have to be replaced or killed off. I wish that marvel could have found a way to really push the new characters without diminishing the older ones.

It is one area where I think that DC is doing well right now, they have kept classic characters like Superman, Batman, Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Hal Jordan, but with rebirth they have gave a book to a Mexican American Female Green Lantern and an Islamic green Lantern. a Chinese Superman got his own book, Cyborg was added to the Justice League as a founding member and got his own book and the company's namesake book detective comics is being co-lead by an LGBT character in Batwoman. In addition LGBT characters Constantine and Midnighter have both had series lately. While I like both companies, I have always been a slightly bigger Marvel fan (with the exception of my favorite Character Mr. Miracle being DC) but Dc seems to be doing a good job of increasing diversity without disregarding their characters right now. I wish Marvel would try a similar approach. I have really enjoyed reading some of the new legacy characters because I can enjoy their story without losing characters I like.

[Kusanagi]

I wish Marvel would try a similar approach. I have really enjoyed reading some of the new legacy characters because I can enjoy their story without losing characters I like.

But aren't they? In October there will be two Spider-Man books, two Captain Americas, two Thor books, arguably two Wolverine books, Captain Marvel and Ms. Marvel, and a joint Nova book.

So far the only ones still on the shelf are Bruce (who just got put on the shelf) and Tony (who isn't even there yet!)

[dragonmp93]

It's not about understanding, because everyone understand why many classic readers enjoy the classic characters (and yes the skin color does play a major role in these characters even though many refuse to deny it, otherwise in the 2000's we wouldn't have had so many failed minority books) It's the cause and effect that's being addressed and why no sympathy is given to classic readers. Classic readers are attached to their "agenda" of nostalgia, there's that dirty word again. That familiarity that they associate with their childhood. But because they're so attached to that agenda, they ignore and bypass any sort of product not associated with their familiarity, without at all willing to give it a try. They ignore it and often times ridicule it without even attempting to give it a chance.If it is not within their small bubble they're so closely associated with, they give it the middle finger for it to die in the land of limbo.

As mentioned before, it's this concept that literally put a stranglehold on the comic book industry, because if it didn't fit within that little bubble of status quo, it was cast aside. No progression was able to be made, new markets couldn't be form because there wasn't enough time for these books to given a chance, literally the entire industry was handcuffed due to this agenda. It essentially was a stand still, and while other form of mediums such as television and movies began to progress in diversity and reflect the modern world, the comic book industry still looked like it was stuck in the 1960's, not an appeasing site for anyone not of an older white male demographic.

Marvel knew that if they did not change to reflect the changing american demographic, it's comics division would perish. Not only that but the fact that comics looked so backwards in comparison to other mediums must have been a major issue for the company who prided itself on "reflecting the outside world." So it played with this concept of familiarity. It knew that as long as the major players were in play, nothing would change. The only way progress would be made is if the main players were taken away either temporarily (Captain America, Thor) or permanently (Ultimate Spider Man) Because of this, "enough" of the classic readers would be interested in the new players who role fits within that familiarity. You combine that with outside press so non traditional comic book readers would be interested in this process and *bam* success.

The change has been drastic in just the past 5 years. In the 2011 San Diego Comic Con, the diversity panel revealed that over 89% of the comic book demographic was white males over the age of 28. That means that literally 11% of the demographic was either white women, minorities, or younger white male readers. Again, a stranglehold on the industry. Just two years ago, and the amount of women readership tripled to 30% of the comic book readership, and that continues to climb every year. And that's just the women readership, let alone other demographics such as minorities, LGBT, young readers, etc.

So this is the cause and effect that takes place from the classic readers not willing to give new products a chance. Essentially it was either comics continue to look like they were in the 1960's while the current year was 2050, or Marvel smarten up and realizes it needs to cater to all audiences and figure out a way to do so. If classic readers were willing to give new characters a chance, this situation wouldn't have happened. Instead, no one was willing to budge to give women and minority characters a chance and Marvel had to carve it's own route. And that's why I have no sympathy for classic readers. You had decades to give new characters a chance, now marvel has found it's method and that temporarily means at your expense. So if that forces you to leave comics because you're not the primary customer being catered too anymore, than good riddance.

To be sincere, relying on the classic readers to create new markets is a terrible and stupid idea; because i wont spend my limited budget on something that only you like to "support" diversity, if you want that, then you should spend your money on it.

[regg215]

That's great that they are adding books for classic characters in addition to the new characters. I have mostly had my books shipped to me lately due to a recent move, so I hadn't heard about the new Nova book or Odinson getting a book in addition to Jane. I just recently joined this site to try and catch up on stuff like that, I guess I must have missed the new relaunch announcements. That is really good news. Guess that's what I get for not keeping up with the new relaunch.Thanks for the information, I truly was not aware of that.

[Kusanagi]

That's great that they are adding books for classic characters in addition to the new characters. I have mostly had my books shipped to me lately due to a recent move, so I hadn't heard about the new Nova book or Odinson getting a book in addition to Jane. I just recently joined this site to try and catch up on stuff like that, I guess I must have missed the new relaunch announcements. That is really good news. Guess that's what I get for not keeping up with the new relaunch.Thanks for the information, I truly was not aware of that.

No worries, I think they were just announced at SDCC so it's relatively fresh news.

[gurkle]

Um no, that's exactly how it was back then as it is now, the only difference is who they are attempting to market to. Captain America didn't just happen, he was a spawn of agenda and propoganda based off of the world war time frame, again catering and having an agenda and catering towards white people. It's not like their agenda change. People just excuse it because back then, comics only catered to white people. Now that comics is catering to everyone, that's when people have a problem. But comics has always been about the agenda, back then it was catering to only white people because white people back then was much more racist and wouldn't support minority projects. Now comics agenda is focusing on a more inclusive environment catering to everyone. But comics has always had an agenda, which is to make money. Just how they are doing it is differently now then it was back then.

Well, also, the demographics of America were different back then. A lineup like the Howling Commandos, which read as very diverse in 1963, now reads as a team of white guys with one black guy. Who knows how today's lineups will be perceived 50 years from now.

But that just proves the point that comics really do reflect the changing times and changing demographics. A New York high school that looked like Peter Parker's was realistic in the early '60s. A New York high school couldn't possibly look like that today. The problem of course is that Big Two comics are working with franchises that were created decades ago so updating their universe to look more realistic to today's world will be instantly dismissed as pandering, even though the attempt to create diversity and represent a wide variety of Americans (ethnic, regional, religious) has always been going on.

[StaticShock99]

Yes. Shouldn't there be a moratorium on these "I'm not racist but Marvel's really pissing me off with their diversity" threads? How many new threads on the same topic do we need where angry fans vent that their favorite characters have been stolen/replaced with females, people of color, etc.?

Every fan has a right to their likes and dislikes but as someone who's been reading Marvel for decades, I love that change is a constant with these characters. It doesn't alienate me - it keeps me interested.

There definitely should be a moratorium on the topic don't need weekly threads on this.

[leo619]

To be sincere, relying on the classic readers to create new markets is a terrible and stupid idea; because i wont spend my limited budget on something that only you like to "support" diversity, if you want that, then you should spend your money on it.

Um, there's a difference between not liking and not trying. Most of the classic fans started in the second category, and then stated they don't like when they have no idea what it's like. With that said, not only do I spend my own money on it, I'm starting my own comic book business that focuses on diversity. So you best believe I fully support it. With that said, to call relying on classic readers to create new markets as a stupid idea just rely reflect how close-minded the classic readers are. Either it fits within their bubble, it it get kicks to the side.

[Pat Thomas]

There definitely should be a moratorium on the topic don't need weekly threads on this.

Except for that free speech problem again.

[leo619]

There definitely should be a moratorium on the topic don't need weekly threads on this.

Agreed, or at least go back to DC like they swear is doing things "so right" even though it's still a pale comparison to how they first started with the new52 and is far behind Marvel when it comes to diversity.