Harper Row confirmed to return in "The Victim Syndicate"

[Aahz]

I'm... really not sure what point you're trying to make.

The point is that Barbara didn't appear on panel in the Batman comics of that time, and could anyway not work in the field,which left space for Tim.

While now there are much more Batfamily members that appear quite regularly in Batman events, that have to compete for space.

[godisawesome]

I think Aahz is kind of right, though I'd argue Harper's struggle for fan appreciation and page time is exacerbated by how closely she seems to derive from Stephanie Brown's characterization and backstory.

For Aahz's point about how certain Batcharacters have to compete for space, I think it's important to note how that's actually a bit of a double standard between the boys and the girls. All four Robin have had monthly appearances throughout the last five years, and three of them were already doing that even before the New 52; as a result, while their fans tend to play favorites and still cultivate a few rivalries, you don't get full on hatred of their "rivals" in near the same amount that the Batgirls get. Heck, the closest you get is how some Tim Drake fans want to see Jason Todd's longest serving writer lose his job because of what he did to Tim; it's not even a character hatred thing, it's a grudge against a creator.

Meanwhile, look at the girls. DC seems utterly terrified about having more than one Batgirl deployed at the same time; when Steph took the cowl, Cass went right back off to limbo, and Cass's fans were angry at Steph... But then were pacified a bit by Cass's return in Red Robin, Batman Inc., and Gates of Gotham. Then, Barabra Gordon took back the cowl, both Steph and Cass were declared "toxic" by editorial to a confused Bat-office, and Babs-hatred spiked... And has now receded a bit again because both girls are back. You could even see it in Huntress; some Bertinelli fans wouldn't give the Helena Wayne books the time of day because they tried to kill off the character.

Harper suffered from the same issue that Steph did when she became Batgirl, but with one very important caveat: most of Harper's plot arc on Batman Eternal was a point for point retread of Steph's history with the Batfamily, while Steph came off as shockingly underdeveloped considering the series was just as much her return series as Bluebird's. In fact, a lot of us noticed that not only was Harper doing Steph's old stories, but we weren't even getting a good substitute story for Steph. She was touted as the key piece to the series, but her biggest "spoiler" was wrong, and she had to get pep-talked by the new girl. Then B&RE happened, and in the story where Cass made her return, what does Steph do? Make a rude insulting comment about Cass, and then exit the book. What does Harler do? All the things that Steph's fans expected her to do involving her old friendship with Cass. And then it turns out that Harper's origin intersects with Cass's new one, and in such a way that some Cass fans might feel their character's crucible moment has been hijacked by a character who only exists because Scott Snyder couldn't get ahold of Steph or Cass earlier.

[darkseidpwns]

I think Aahz is kind of right, though I'd argue Harper's struggle for fan appreciation and page time is exacerbated by how closely she seems to derive from Stephanie Brown's characterization and backstory.

For Aahz's point about how certain Batcharacters have to compete for space, I think it's important to note how that's actually a bit of a double standard between the boys and the girls. All four Robin have had monthly appearances throughout the last five years, and three of them were already doing that even before the New 52; as a result, while their fans tend to play favorites and still cultivate a few rivalries, you don't get full on hatred of their "rivals" in near the same amount that the Batgirls get. Heck, the closest you get is how some Tim Drake fans want to see Jason Todd's longest serving writer lose his job because of what he did to Tim; it's not even a character hatred thing, it's a grudge against a creator.

Meanwhile, look at the girls. DC seems utterly terrified about having more than one Batgirl deployed at the same time; when Steph took the cowl, Cass went right back off to limbo, and Cass's fans were angry at Steph... But then were pacified a bit by Cass's return in Red Robin, Batman Inc., and Gates of Gotham. Then, Barabra Gordon took back the cowl, both Steph and Cass were declared "toxic" by editorial to a confused Bat-office, and Babs-hatred spiked... And has now receded a bit again because both girls are back. You could even see it in Huntress; some Bertinelli fans wouldn't give the Helena Wayne books the time of day because they tried to kill off the character.

Harper suffered from the same issue that Steph did when she became Batgirl, but with one very important caveat: most of Harper's plot arc on Batman Eternal was a point for point retread of Steph's history with the Batfamily, while Steph came off as shockingly underdeveloped considering the series was just as much her return series as Bluebird's. In fact, a lot of us noticed that not only was Harper doing Steph's old stories, but we weren't even getting a good substitute story for Steph. She was touted as the key piece to the series, but her biggest "spoiler" was wrong, and she had to get pep-talked by the new girl. Then B&RE happened, and in the story where Cass made her return, what does Steph do? Make a rude insulting comment about Cass, and then exit the book. What does Harler do? All the things that Steph's fans expected her to do involving her old friendship with Cass. And then it turns out that Harper's origin intersects with Cass's new one, and in such a way that some Cass fans might feel their character's crucible moment has been hijacked by a character who only exists because Scott Snyder couldn't get ahold of Steph or Cass earlier.

Yep, I've actually said it before as well, Harper was clearly created to hijack Robin( very similar to both Jason and Tim, came out when Dick and Damian died and clearly was intended to replace them) but ending up hijacking Batgirl, it's amusing. Both Steph and Cass had to suffer the ignominy of having their debut stories becoming Harper stories. You cant even tell modern Cassandra's story without mentioning Harper, she's done incredible damage to both Cass and Steph. Worst of all I dont even know what statement they're trying to make with her (and Duke for that matter), what exactly do they tell us about Batman, Gotham and the larger mythology that we dont already know about?

[sunofdarkchild]

Harper has been well written, both her personality and her skillset have been kept somewhat consistent all the way through, if anything shes been the best written character in the batbooks since her introduction. The problem is that shes a crap character, a crap character that was brought at the worst possible time for stupid and selfish reasons.

It's the crap writing that made her a crap character. Consistency with regards to Harper is arguable, but it is only one aspect of good writing. Season 1 of Next Generation was consistent in its horribleness. In theory a story where she is well written could do for her what that did for the cast of TGN.

My point was that there is nothing hypocritical with Steph fans complaining about Harper

[Aahz]

I think a lot less people would complain about her, if they had build her up in a smaller story with just her and Batman, instead of hijacking two weakly series full of much more popular Batcharacters to do it. Especeally since the relatins between the members weren't really reestablished after the reboot.

I think what they did with Duke publication wise was better, by having him just in the normal Batman stories and We Are Robin, problem is just that Duke is (at least imo) to similar to Tim and to bland and generic to bring anything new to the table. Maybe they should have just created one new character instead of two. And having for example Harper staring We are Robin.

[Lhynn]

It's the crap writing that made her a crap character. Consistency with regards to Harper is arguable, but it is only one aspect of good writing.

Dude, thats her character, thats how she was written from the start. Good writing or no good writing, if you want to make her likable you have to literally retcon her entire personality not to mention her origin and every single one of her appearances.

[Atlanta96]

I think a lot less people would complain about her, if they had build her up in a smaller story with just her and Batman, instead of hijacking two weakly series full of much more popular Batcharacters to do it. Especeally since the relatins between the members weren't really reestablished after the reboot.

I think what they did with Duke publication wise was better, by having him just in the normal Batman stories and We Are Robin, problem is just that Duke is (at least imo) to similar to Tim and to bland and generic to bring anything new to the table. Maybe they should have just created one new character instead of two. And having for example Harper staring We are Robin.

Or they could've created zero new characters, since the Bat-family had more than enough characters already and didn't need new ones. But a Harper/Duke amalgamation would be so spectacularly bad that I kind of want to see it! Duke with a blue Mohawk making pointless appearances in Batman and ripping off both Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown!

[UnderTheRedHood]

Or they could've created zero new characters, since the Bat-family had more than enough characters already and didn't need new ones. But a Harper/Duke amalgamation would be so spectacularly bad that I kind of want to see it! Duke with a blue Mohawk making pointless appearances in Batman and ripping off both Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown!

I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally the new Characters where what got me back into Batman Comics. I started seeing all these new Bat people they just kept popping up I knew about all the batgirls and the Robins already but the Cathy Cains, the Batwing's and the Bluebird's of the world sparked my Curiosity as a reader.

[godisawesome]

Or they could've created zero new characters, since the Bat-family had more than enough characters already and didn't need new ones. But a Harper/Duke amalgamation would be so spectacularly bad that I kind of want to see it! Duke with a blue Mohawk making pointless appearances in Batman and ripping off both Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown!

I have to say that I'm vehemently against the idea of a moratorium on new characters. My issue is with ensuring the characters are all developed uniquely and in ways that make for interesting interactions. I didn't care for either Damian or Kate when they first appeared, and I was griping about Steph replacing Cass as Batgirl so quickly. But all of those characters worked out for the best when they got a unique voice. Harper, when acting as a motherly big sister towards her brother, is unique. Her when flirting with Tim Drake and complaining about a loser criminal father in dialogue that feels like it could literally be lifted from a Steoh issue! That's bad.

[Atlanta96]

I have to say that I'm vehemently against the idea of a moratorium on new characters. My issue is with ensuring the characters are all developed uniquely and in ways that make for interesting interactions. I didn't care for either Damian or Kate when they first appeared, and I was griping about Steph replacing Cass as Batgirl so quickly. But all of those characters worked out for the best when they got a unique voice. Harper, when acting as a motherly big sister towards her brother, is unique. Her when flirting with Tim Drake and complaining about a loser criminal father in dialogue that feels like it could literally be lifted from a Steoh issue! That's bad.

But the existing Bat-Family members were already struggling for panel time before the reboot. Even if a new character is original and not derivative, their existence still pushes everyone else aside so they can be developed. The Family was fine Pre-Flashpoint and didn't need any new additions, and there were diverse backstories and personalities among those heroes which made those new additions even more pointless.

[sanderling]

I have to say that I'm vehemently against the idea of a moratorium on new characters. My issue is with ensuring the characters are all developed uniquely and in ways that make for interesting interactions. I didn't care for either Damian or Kate when they first appeared, and I was griping about Steph replacing Cass as Batgirl so quickly. But all of those characters worked out for the best when they got a unique voice. Harper, when acting as a motherly big sister towards her brother, is unique. Her when flirting with Tim Drake and complaining about a loser criminal father in dialogue that feels like it could literally be lifted from a Steoh issue! That's bad.

Agreeing here -- I wouldn't want them not to create new characters. I will admit that the way Harper was written in B&R Eternal made the series almost unreadable for me, but I don't think she doesn't have the potential to be a compelling character. I definitely agree much of her "character development" so far, at least in the big weekly series, has come at the expense of other people's favorites, particularly Stephanie Brown. If she's going to be a presence in the Bat Books I think having her in a team book with Stephanie, Cassandra and Tim is not a bad place for her to be, not just because they are her age, but also because maybe it would help each of the four find their own voices as they interact with one another in a smaller setting. It can obviously be done badly (see B&R E), but I am cautiously optimistic given what Detective Comics has been doing so far.

[Atlanta96]

I still don't understand why anyone who has disliked Harper so far wants to see her improve as a character. If all her appearances since she was introduced have been handled badly, at the expense of other characters, and there's nothing about her character that is distinct or gives her potential, then what reason is there to want her around in an already bloated group of heroes? Is it her design, do people like her Nightwing ripoff costume and her blue Mohawk? Is her relationship with her brother so interesting that it justifies her existence?

Even if she does become a better character, so what? She'll never be more popular than the heroes who came before her, the Bat-Family won't be improved or diversified by her existence, and there will always be a massive number of fans who hate her guts because of her New 52 appearances. If you just want literally every character in existence to be given a chance and written well, okay. But if that's not the case, I have no idea why Harper needs to be around at all.

[Aahz]

Or they could've created zero new characters, since the Bat-family had more than enough characters already and didn't need new ones. But a Harper/Duke amalgamation would be so spectacularly bad that I kind of want to see it! Duke with a blue Mohawk making pointless appearances in Batman and ripping off both Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown!

My idea was more to take the parts that aren't ripped of. If you had for example Harper staring We are Robin and not in the be in the Eternals (and not being connected with Cass and Stephanies origins) I think it would have been imo more unique.

[oasis1313]

I still don't understand why anyone who has disliked Harper so far wants to see her improve as a character. If all her appearances since she was introduced have been handled badly, at the expense of other characters, and there's nothing about her character that is distinct or gives her potential, then what reason is there to want her around in an already bloated group of heroes? Is it her design, do people like her Nightwing ripoff costume and her blue Mohawk? Is her relationship with her brother so interesting that it justifies her existence?

Even if she does become a better character, so what? She'll never be more popular than the heroes who came before her, the Bat-Family won't be improved or diversified by her existence, and there will always be a massive number of fans who hate her guts because of her New 52 appearances. If you just want literally every character in existence to be given a chance and written well, okay. But if that's not the case, I have no idea why Harper needs to be around at all.

Here we are all begging for more panel space for the characters who have EARNED their status--and DC wastes it on a crap character like Harper Row.

[batalia]

I think Aahz is kind of right, though I'd argue Harper's struggle for fan appreciation and page time is exacerbated by how closely she seems to derive from Stephanie Brown's characterization and backstory.

For Aahz's point about how certain Batcharacters have to compete for space, I think it's important to note how that's actually a bit of a double standard between the boys and the girls. All four Robin have had monthly appearances throughout the last five years, and three of them were already doing that even before the New 52; as a result, while their fans tend to play favorites and still cultivate a few rivalries, you don't get full on hatred of their "rivals" in near the same amount that the Batgirls get. Heck, the closest you get is how some Tim Drake fans want to see Jason Todd's longest serving writer lose his job because of what he did to Tim; it's not even a character hatred thing, it's a grudge against a creator.

Meanwhile, look at the girls. DC seems utterly terrified about having more than one Batgirl deployed at the same time; when Steph took the cowl, Cass went right back off to limbo, and Cass's fans were angry at Steph... But then were pacified a bit by Cass's return in Red Robin, Batman Inc., and Gates of Gotham. Then, Barabra Gordon took back the cowl, both Steph and Cass were declared "toxic" by editorial to a confused Bat-office, and Babs-hatred spiked... And has now receded a bit again because both girls are back. You could even see it in Huntress; some Bertinelli fans wouldn't give the Helena Wayne books the time of day because they tried to kill off the character.

Harper suffered from the same issue that Steph did when she became Batgirl, but with one very important caveat: most of Harper's plot arc on Batman Eternal was a point for point retread of Steph's history with the Batfamily, while Steph came off as shockingly underdeveloped considering the series was just as much her return series as Bluebird's. In fact, a lot of us noticed that not only was Harper doing Steph's old stories, but we weren't even getting a good substitute story for Steph. She was touted as the key piece to the series, but her biggest "spoiler" was wrong, and she had to get pep-talked by the new girl. Then B&RE happened, and in the story where Cass made her return, what does Steph do? Make a rude insulting comment about Cass, and then exit the book. What does Harler do? All the things that Steph's fans expected her to do involving her old friendship with Cass. And then it turns out that Harper's origin intersects with Cass's new one, and in such a way that some Cass fans might feel their character's crucible moment has been hijacked by a character who only exists because Scott Snyder couldn't get ahold of Steph or Cass earlier.

That is because Batgirl role isn't like Robin's and also the Robins all except for Tim have a real place in Batman's story. Dick is the first Robin and went on to be Nightwing, Jason has the whole death in/of the family and went on to be Red Hood. Damian has Bruce bio son thing going on for him and is the current Robin and made Tim obsolete. That is why Tim feels like an extra. He doesn't have any known stories going for him like Jason and he doesn't really have real ID (Red Robin doesn't cut it. It just comes across as discount Robin).

Barbara couldn't be Batgirl because of the whole stupid killing joke thing so it went to Cass then they kicked her out (can't have two Batgirls. Is not like they had two Robins at any given time), Steph become Batgirl then got kicked out once Barbara got back. Both Cass and Steph again don't have any well known stories as blackcat and spoilers. They are most know for taking over as Batgirl and that is Barbara's title and will always be the most well known and popular Batgirl. Barbara becoming Batgirl again made both of them obsolete just like Damian made Tim one. Before that Steph made Cass obsolete. Tim, Cass and Steph and now Harper and Duke are just extras added to the Batfamily. I see them all as not needed. They stepping on each others' toes and other existing Batfamilies' toes. I don't feel like they have a place unless the writes and editors decide to tells stories about each one that they become known for.

Tim, Cass, Steph, Harper, Duke, those Gotham twin sibling, this new mother panic thing plus whoever else new I'm forgetting all overrunning Gotham. It's just making Batman being Gothem's protecters kind of meaningless to be honest. They need to stop overcrowding Gothem with so many crime fighters. You can introduce new characters but they don't need to be crime fighters. Bruce and the batfamily need supporting characters in their normal life that develop and grow them.