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  1. #1
    Mighty Member codystarbuck's Avatar
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    Default Anyone else feel weird about calling Archie an "independent"?

    Now, I'm old, as is painfully obvious; but, in my formative years, Archie was a pretty big publisher, right up there with DC and Marvel. In the 70s, the main players were DC, Marvel, Archie, Harvey, Gold Key, Charlton and Warren. Archie, Harvey and Gold Key pretty much had the childrens' market sewn up, with Archie and the gang controlling a certain part, Richie Rich and Casper handling another segment, and Gold Key getting the Disney and Looney Tunes Crowd. Warren was its own world on magazine stands. Charlton tended to get the scraps, as their spotty distribution hurt them, in the long run. Archie had always been one of the biggest companies, from its beginnings as MLJ, right up to the 70s. They always seemed to be number 3, in my childhood. It kind of felt like the decline of newsstands that began in the 70s hurt them, and their near total absence from comic shops critically wounded them. You'd see the digests in grocery stores; but, rarely the comics. They got some resurgence with the TMNT licensed comics and Sonic; but, nothing close to what they once had. Still, they are still in there fighting when everyone else but DC and Marvel gave up the ghost (and DC and Marvel have been on the brink, at times).

    Funny, I've seen and heard more about Archie books now than I did for most of the period between 1980 and 2010.

  2. #2
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Well, Archie Comics may have had a presence for a long time, but they don't have the bigger presence / impact that DC, Marvel, and even Image have had these days.

    So, what would you call them other than "Independent"? A "Minor Company"?

  3. #3
    Mighty Member codystarbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Well, Archie Comics may have had a presence for a long time, but they don't have the bigger presence / impact that DC, Marvel, and even Image have had these days.

    So, what would you call them other than "Independent"? A "Minor Company"?
    I meant that Archie was a publishing giant for 50 years. Then, it seemed like it slipped away from them. Look at when they had their Kickstarter campaign and the backlash they got; people assumed they had tons of cash. They had produced thousands of comics, had their characters in cartoons, tv shows, and a couple of movies. I know there were behind-the-scenes battles; but, someone really squandered the loot or mismanaged it pretty badly.

    Chalk it up to nostalgia for a time when comics, in general, were stronger as pure publishing. Just wondered if any other old-timers had similar thoughts.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member ian0delond's Avatar
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    What does independant even means ?
    Not belonging to à bigger company ?
    Marvel was independant before Disney brought it.

    Independant does not mean small.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member codystarbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian0delond View Post
    What does independant even means ?
    Not belonging to à bigger company ?
    Marvel was independant before Disney brought it.

    Independant does not mean small.
    Well, that's kind of tangental to my question. The only true independents are self-publishers; they answer to no one but themselves. Practically all other comic book publishers are corporations, of one size or another. The main differences are market share and the terms of the contracts. Within comics, the term has been used broadly to cover anyone who isn't DC and Marvel, regardless of their market share and revenue, much like graphic novel became synonymous with any collection of comics in a traditional book format, regardless of whether it is an original work or a reprint. In past years, independent meant "small press." For me, the better term was alternative press, as that is what I think of when when talking about the smaller companies. Most began and operate as an alternative to the mainstream books. Some, like Image and Dark Horse blur the lines, from time to time. More often, the independence is for the creator, who may operate under more favorable terms (trading off the higher pay and greater marketing resources for less editorial scrutiny and partial or full copyright ownership). To me, that has never fit Archie, as a publisher. They operate as work-for-hire and own their characters, while publishing a few under license. They have tight editorial control.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    I think in recent years, it's become a catch-all term for publishers not in Diamond's Premiere section of the Previews.

    But for me, if they're big enough for SDCC but not going to APE, they're not independents.
    I think the current Big Three of indies would be Fantagraphics, SLG and Drawn & Quarterly.

    IDW, Dark Horse, Archie, Dynamite and Boom fit into that vast limbo between Mainstream and Indie. Not quite one, not quite the other.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member MRP's Avatar
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    What Indy means has transformed throughout comic history. I think the first truly indy books were the undergrounds of the 60s and 70s, by the 80s it was used to mean any publisher that was producing books for the fledgling direct market and not primarily for the newsstands, so companies like Eclipse, First, Pacific, etc. were the indies of that era. The emergence of Image slightly changed that. With the 90s and the distribution wars that destroyed all distribution channels except Diamond the term indy transformed again, most thinking it meant anyone but the big 2, but these days I look at Indy as being anyone who distributes through Diamond but doesn't have their own section of Preview as the big 5 do...Marvel, DC, Image, IDW and Dark Horse. They form the core of the Diamond distribution channel. Several smaller publishers get lumped together in the back end of the comic catalog form Diamond-Dynamite, BOOM, and those even smaller that only produce a small number of books. These are books that basically have to fight to be included in Diamond's distribution channels as their volume is much lower than the big 5 and some may be in danger of falling below Diamond's minimum threshold for inclusion in Previews. Archie, once one of the cornerstones of the industry through the 80s has fallen into this category.

    But beyond that, there is a whole world of comics too small for Diamond to notice. People who make and sell comics through other channels than Diamond. Some sell directly through conventions, some through crowdfunding, some distribute themselves to as many comic shops that are small press friendly and will carry their books, some seek to band together to create alternative distribution to shops outside Diamond. These are publishers you might see at SPX, SPACE in Columbus, OH, the Toronto ComicCon and other places. These are in the truest sense, the indies because they operate without the infrastructure of Diamond to bring their books to market But these are books that most traditional "comic book" fans (i..e. super-hero fans who read comics and occasionally experiment with some of the other big 5 publishers" will never see or notice if they do see them.

    Some creators who have made it in the bigger world still keep their feet in this realm, Jeff Smith (of Bone, RASL and Tuki Saves the Humans) is a big advocate of these types of comics and has been building the Cartoon Crossraods Expo in Columbus the last few years to showcase these types of books.

    So I would say the label indy currently applies at 3 levels, depending how deep your awareness of comics as a whole is-

    at the shallowest level indy is non-Big 2 books-for people who use it this way Marvel and DC form the core and almost the whole of the comic world and anything outside that realm is "other" hence indy.

    at the next level, indy is non-Big 5 books, those who use it in this sense see the comic world as bigger than Marvel and DC but are still constrained in seeing comics as existing within the universe of Diamond-the 5 biggest publishers are the core of Diamond's business, but there are "other" books you can get but you have to work to find them, preorder from retailers, scour the Diamond back pages to find them, etc.

    at the deepest level indy is those books operating outside the realm of Diamond distribution-these are people who are aware of how big (in terms of variety not sales) the comic world is outside what Diamond distributes.

    Now digital distribution is adding a whole new wrinkle to this, as there are creators/publishers now who bypass print distribution and just bring their work to market digitally (so exist outside Diamond per se) but may get a little more exposure than many of the small press/self-publishing print product producers.

    I am sure there are lots of areas that are small press friendly, the area I am in in the corridor between Daytom and Columbus, Ohio has 3 shows devoted especially to these type of small press products-I.C.E. (Independent Creator Expo) in Dayton that provides a platform for indy comics makers plus indy filmmakers and some indy music, but the core of the show is indy comic, the aforementioned SPACE (Small Press and Alternative Comics expo) in Columbus, and Jeff Smith's Comics Crossraods also in Columbus (done in conjunction with the amazing comic collection/programs at the Ohio State University).

    Links for more info...

    SPACE: http://www.backporchcomics.com/space.htm

    CXC (Cartoon Crossraods Columbus) http://www.cartooncrossroadscolumbus.com/

    ICE: http://ice.studioakumakaze.com/

    -M
    Last edited by MRP; 08-04-2016 at 10:58 AM.

  8. #8
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Well, it could be argued that once upon a time, only DC and Marvel were bigger comic book companies than Archie who, in their heyday in the early to mid 1970's, published something like two to three dozen monthly titles. I've always believed that the decline of Archie could be attributed to how the wholesome, homespun, white bread, Leave It To Beaver appeal of Archie and his friends no longer resonated with today's teens and pre-teens in our darker, harsher, more cynical age, and the popularity of Archie nosedived into what was close to oblivion until the company's recent renaissance. So, I wouldn't exactly call Archie which has been around since 1941 "independent", but, I can understand why that would be the case compared to the monoliths DC and Marvel have become today.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member electr1cgoblin's Avatar
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    Yes, it feels weird. Moreover, while I understand that the 50's and 60's style of Archie will never cut it in today's market, it's sad for me to see it so 'modernized'. To me, that's not really Archie, but then again, as you said, I'm old.

  10. #10
    Never Giving Up! GreenLanternRanger's Avatar
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    Not really no, Archie isn't owned by a bigger corporation like DC & Marvel are, so that makes them independent in my book.


    As for the modernization of the Archie comics, I think they have been great so far! Don't get me wrong, the old stuff was fun, I grew up reading Archie Digests just as much as super hero comics, but I have to say the reboot has been great so far as well so I can't complain.
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  11. #11
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electr1cgoblin View Post
    Yes, it feels weird. Moreover, while I understand that the 50's and 60's style of Archie will never cut it in today's market, it's sad for me to see it so 'modernized'. To me, that's not really Archie, but then again, as you said, I'm old.
    Well, perhaps few to no other members of this forum are older that I am at 57, and I'm loving the "modernization" of Archie.
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  12. #12
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Well, perhaps few to no other members of this forum are older that I am at 57, and I'm loving the "modernization" of Archie.
    I'm only slightly younger than you (but still older than President Obama). I haven't bothered to try the new main Archie line, though I was buying a few Red/Dark Circle titles (which Archie has screwed up with once again with constant inexplicable delays between issues).

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I'm only slightly younger than you (but still older than President Obama). I haven't bothered to try the new main Archie line, though I was buying a few Red/Dark Circle titles (which Archie has screwed up with once again with constant inexplicable delays between issues).
    *draws up a Logic Puzzle graph*
    Hoy is younger than WPPunisher, but younger than Obama... and wasn't the one who tried the New Archie... but did try Red Circle...

    I tried New Archie. It was okay until I saw the mistake in #6 that had Reggie go from driving an American car to driving a European car between panels (see if you can spot it).
    I had bought #1-3 by then but lost interest after seeing that.

    I had a similar problem with Dynamite's Legendarry. I was really enjoying the story up until the panels where Sonja is having dinner with some other characters and two of the characters swapped seats between panels. I'm a stickler for panel-to-panel continuity.

    Meanwhile, the Archie Horror stuff was good until it stopped coming out. And did. And didn't.
    On the bright side, for me missing a couple years of Sabrina, it'll be easy to catch up on if I decide to pick it up again.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member codystarbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Well, it could be argued that once upon a time, only DC and Marvel were bigger comic book companies than Archie who, in their heyday in the early to mid 1970's, published something like two to three dozen monthly titles. I've always believed that the decline of Archie could be attributed to how the wholesome, homespun, white bread, Leave It To Beaver appeal of Archie and his friends no longer resonated with today's teens and pre-teens in our darker, harsher, more cynical age, and the popularity of Archie nosedived into what was close to oblivion until the company's recent renaissance. So, I wouldn't exactly call Archie which has been around since 1941 "independent", but, I can understand why that would be the case compared to the monoliths DC and Marvel have become today.
    I don't think it was quite that simple. The fact that they survived for as long as they did, without major revamps, suggests there was still a market. Archie was hurt, as was everyone else, by the recession of the 70s and the decline of newsstands. Where DC and Marvel got new life via the direct market distribution system, Archie and Harvey got left out, since they were "kid stuff" and the comic shops were, by and large, run by older fans of superhero and other genre material. That was a significant loss of revenue. In the entire time I was collecting in comic shops, I never saw an Archie on their stands; only, rarely, in the back issue bins. The biggest exposure I saw was when they gave Jughead a baby sister, and that was just a solicitation in a mail order service guide, when I was getting my comics in the mail. They also didn't have much of a pop culture presence, as it had been a while since the last cartoon series (mid-70s or so). The only place I saw anything was at the grocery store and that was only the digests. When I worked for Barnes and Noble, we never saw there stuff, until about the last 5 years. The fact that they continued, with mostly just digest displays, next to weight loss guides and soap opera guides is amazing. They got some life in the 90s, thanks to the TMNT comic, as well as Sonic, which got them some newsstand space and even a bit in comic shops.

    It's been refreshing to see them get some new life, in recent years and it will be interesting to see what the new tv series will do, if it's any good.

  15. #15
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I'm only slightly younger than you (but still older than President Obama). I haven't bothered to try the new main Archie line, though I was buying a few Red/Dark Circle titles (which Archie has screwed up with once again with constant inexplicable delays between issues).
    Well, let's see, Obama recently turned 54 (though he looks older with all that gray, being president ages the **** out of a guy), so I'm gonna say you're either 55 or 56. Gotta love the ol' process of elimination!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubou View Post
    I'm surprised that no mega-conglomerate has bought Archie like Disney bought Marvel and CrossGen or Warner Bros bought DC.
    Nobody probably thought Archie was worth the investment.
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