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  1. #31
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Watching Superman fans who know that SuperDad and SuperJon are the wrong direction for this line, and I know they know because I've seen them basically admit it, circle the wagons and say we're going to love it no matter what and really start hammering on more vocal critics is a little bit disturbing to me.

    There is a sort of a creepy sense of Invasion of the Body Snatchers style or 1950s style culture of forced conformity that bothers me. It's not just because I don't agree with what the talking points are, although obviously that's part of it. It's also that people seem to find contrary opinions so *threatening*. Like, what is wrong with someone who really likes Superman in general or new52 Superman in particular and who really hates SuperDad and SuperJon, really posting their unfiltered thoughts and hanging around? Why does everyone have to kind of kneel to Zod on this? Does me having the "wrong" opinion ruin your enjoyment of the comics somehow? Why do you feel the need to learn to love whatever is thrown at you?

    I mean, I could easily go with the common "Batman fan" style critique of Superman as some sort of uber-nationalist conformist icon and say the fan base reflects it, but I know the Superman mythos better than that, and I think most of you do, too. Superman actually started out as a social justice crusader who challenged the status quo. New52 Superman was in part a return to that, which is part of why people love or hated him. So, I'm not prepared to just throw Superman fans, which include me (I'm just not a fan of *this* Superman- SuperDad- or his son) under the bus by saying that's why everyone is giving up and agreeing that we all must pretend to like what we don't like or go away, and why people who I know don't like this are in some cases pretending to or keeping quiet or trying to fool themselves. I think there's more to it than that.

    So, what is it? Why do things have to be this way? Couldn't we all make a pact to not give into this and to allow people to be honest about their feelings?

    DC Comics has kind of made very clear that they don't feel the need to cater to the portion of the fan base I represent right now, not with even a single monthly book out of their however many books (50ish?). So, why do I owe them? I paid for every Superman comic I have. They didn't give them to me. I don't owe them anything, they don't owe me anything, and they sure aren't shy about figuratively giving fans like me the finger. So, why can't I diss the crap sandwich they are trying to serve in the hopes that I'll pay them for it?
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 08-04-2016 at 05:38 PM.

  2. #32
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    nuperman is dead and won't come back, he is a experiment that failed

    superman now is selling well and getting good reviews, Jon has tons of fan arts and will co-star with damian supersons book

    enough is enough

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The argument will all be moot in the end. New 52 Superman is fine. He's currently in print as we speak. He's just a little older now and has fractured memories.

    Not that it'll help the fanbase any, though. Once all is revealed those who reviled everything the New 52 version stands for will be mad when they both turn out to be the same guy because even with the new status quo they won't accept Superman having the New 52 experiences as canon too, so the base will still be fractured.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-04-2016 at 05:54 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  4. #34
    Mighty Member upgrayedd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    nuperman is dead and won't come back, he is a experiment that failed

    superman now is selling well and getting good reviews, Jon has tons of fan arts and will co-star with damian supersons book

    enough is enough
    I'm sure Marvel's Heroes Reborn had it's fans, and were upset when they were phased out. Superdead has his fans too. Personally I am enjoying Superman more than I ever have before, and I stopped reading Superman long before Superdead had his day in the sun.
    I have no beef with Vegans

  5. #35
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Watching Superman fans who know that SuperDad and SuperJon are the wrong direction for this line, and I know they know because I've seen them basically admit it, circle the wagons and say we're going to love it no matter what and really start hammering on more vocal critics is a little bit disturbing to me.

    There is a sort of a creepy sense of Invasion of the Body Snatchers style or 1950s style culture of forced conformity that bothers me. It's not just because I don't agree with what the talking points are, although obviously that's part of it. It's also that people seem to find contrary opinions so *threatening*. Like, what is wrong with someone who really likes Superman in general or new52 Superman in particular and who really hates SuperDad and SuperJon, really posting their unfiltered thoughts and hanging around? Why does everyone have to kind of kneel to Zod on this? Does me having the "wrong" opinion ruin your enjoyment of the comics somehow? Why do you feel the need to learn to love whatever is thrown at you?

    I mean, I could easily go with the common "Batman fan" style critique of Superman as some sort of uber-nationalist conformist icon and say the fan base reflects it, but I know the Superman mythos better than that, and I think most of you do, too. Superman actually started out as a social justice crusader who challenged the status quo. New52 Superman was in part a return to that, which is part of why people love or hated him. So, I'm not prepared to just throw Superman fans, which include me (I'm just not a fan of *this* Superman- SuperDad- or his son) under the bus by saying that's why everyone is giving up and agreeing that we all must pretend to like what we don't like or go away, and why people who I know don't like this are in some cases pretending to or keeping quiet or trying to fool themselves. I think there's more to it than that.

    So, what is it? Why do things have to be this way? Couldn't we all make a pact to not give into this and to allow people to be honest about their feelings?

    DC Comics has kind of made very clear that they don't feel the need to cater to the portion of the fan base I represent right now, not with even a single monthly book out of their however many books (50ish?). So, why do I owe them? I paid for every Superman comic I have. They didn't give them to me. I don't owe them anything, they don't owe me anything, and they sure aren't shy about figuratively giving fans like me the finger. So, why can't I diss the crap sandwich they are trying to serve in the hopes that I'll pay them for it?
    Dude, this isn't about people not agreeing with your opinion. It's never actually been about that. If you look back in this very thread you'll see that the bulk of people add somewhere in their post "I understand your frustration, but..." because we're not freakin animals. We get that not everyone has to like the same thing. Superdad fans are even sympathizing with you when they say stuff like "I know how I felt when they took away my Superman, but..." So this isn't some lone warrior on his Obi Wan Kenobi high ground, because a lot of the people here have been where you are. Where the irritation lays is why your need to make whole threads dedicated to rhetoric and hyperbole. It's the almost spam-like quality that you're giving it.

    No one is asking you to like the current direction. Hell mah dood, you don't even have to respect it. But if you want your "unfiltered opinions" to taken seriously by the people around you then making threads where the soul goal is to sh!t on a character or direction under the guise of "news." I mean come on, "SuperSons Cancelled! Jon Experiment Showing Signs of Failing! New52 Superman to the Rescue?" That's basically click bait.

  6. #36
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The argument will all be moot in the end. New 52 Superman is fine. He's currently in print as we speak. He's just a little older now and has fractured memories.

    Not that it'll help the fanbase any, though. Once all is revealed those who reviled everything the New 52 version stands for will be mad when they both turn out to be the same guy because even with the new status quo they won't accept Superman having the New 52 experiences as canon too, so the base will still be fractured.
    Unless they tweak the base. They'd have to since the timeline is currently being revised anyway, and the current Superman did have have a post-crisis life at some point (and they wouldn't toss that after building the base for it in Superman: Rebirth) so that make some things fundamentally different from the New 52's life.

    I'm very keen on the idea of not really doing the New 52 origin verbatim (not because I'm not a fan of it. Couldn't be more from the truth) but more so the idea that Morrison was going for in it's creation. The idea that Superman went through the character arc of Golden Age, Silver Age, and to Modern Age all in one man's life organically.

    Outline of my optimal outcome from your thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    While I love Morrison's Superman origin to death, I think DC could just take the broad idea of Morrison's run and then transplant an origin for this Superman from it.

    Like one of the cooler aspects of the origin and run was the idea of having Clark go through the transition of Golden to Silver and then Modern. They might switch up the look a little bit for the sake of differentiating the aesthetic from New 52, but they'd very likely keep the same tee shirt and jeans idea at it's core. I could see them doing a sort of neo Golden Age where they basically retell old Golden Age Superman stories but in a modern setting and aesthetic for the most part. I could see them doing it less for the idea of sticking to Morrison's original plan (which doesn't quite line up with the current Superman as he himself has said) and more in the interest of celebrating classic S&S and old Fleischer cartoons. I foresee a tee shirt and jeans (variant) Superman punching back a laser beam coming from the top of a mountain where Lois is held captive.

    Then do the same with classic suit representing his Sliver and Bronze age. They could basically do callbacks to Superman The Movie, his Silver Age stuff, and Jurgens' stuff. I see them using the Morrison origin as less of a 1 to 1 origin and more of a springboard to basically give Superman the experience of 70+ years shrunken into 15 or so crazy years in one guy's life.

    My own personal idea:

    One of the Superman writers (my pick would be Tomasi and Gleason) doing a whole arc (5 or 6 issues) of the Clark's life story. Hell, Tomasi and Gleason even have the perfect set up since they can have the framing device for the story be Lois telling stories to Jon (a string of bedtime stories maybe?). If I'm not mistaken, Jon still hasn't heard all of the ins and outs of Clark and Lois' adventures back in their time. I remember Clark even saying something like "that's a story for another time." Anyways, remember how the 70s Superman movie opened with a kid reading a Superman comic? Maybe open this arc with Jon mimicking that kid but with a scrapbook Lois has kept? So maybe in the story Clark is off like a galaxy away attending to a call, and Jon is worried about his dad because he can't go with him on this one. So Lois decides to tell him about some key moments in Clark's life (as well as her life as pertaining to Clark) to rest the young boy's mind. Some stories are big and bombastic galaxy jumping adventures, and others and intimate American Alien style stories about a guy. You don't even have to have each issue flow into the other in a cut and dry way. Treat it more like the comforting and thrilling stories for Jon that they are meant to be. But it's not a Tolkien epic.

    BAM! New origin. Homage to the great stories of the past. Morrison inspired. AND doesn't completely break the flow and mission statement of the current Superman book which is family. I've basically put birds on the endangered species list with just one stone

  7. #37
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Dude, this isn't about people not agreeing with your opinion. It's never actually been about that. If you look back in this very thread you'll see that the bulk of people add somewhere in their post "I understand your frustration, but..." because we're not freakin animals. We get that not everyone has to like the same thing. Superdad fans are even sympathizing with you when they say stuff like "I know how I felt when they took away my Superman, but..." So this isn't some lone warrior on his Obi Wan Kenobi high ground, because a lot of the people here have been where you are. Where the irritation lays is why your need to make whole threads dedicated to rhetoric and hyperbole. It's the almost spam-like quality that you're giving it.

    No one is asking you to like the current direction. Hell mah dood, you don't even have to respect it. But if you want your "unfiltered opinions" to taken seriously by the people around you then making threads where the soul goal is to sh!t on a character or direction under the guise of "news." I mean come on, "SuperSons Cancelled! Jon Experiment Showing Signs of Failing! New52 Superman to the Rescue?" That's basically click bait.
    QFT. Like I said I totally sympathise with Supercrab. I've certainly gone through the same thing multiple times. Heck, my favorite Robin was voted off the island via a phone poll for crying out loud all because someone wanted Robin gone from the Bat books. I was probably just as pissed off then as Supercrab seems to be now but I didn't waste my time writing countless diatribes to DC over it. Instead I just dropped out of reading their books and moved on to other things for a while until I felt able to enjoy them again.

    Personally, I'm enjoying the heck out of the current Superman books and I think Jon is adorable. I'm not sure why the books are resonating with me as deeply as they are but I do know that the N52 Superman books pretty much never did except in a few instances.
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    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

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  8. #38
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    The fact that he needs a new origin every 5 minutes is murdering any and all interest I have in SUPERMAN comics.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    He appears in convergence.... But,we have the original character in convergence.. and DC not use him for stop the first crisis(something that erase his world) and the antimonitor?
    That was Kingdom Come/Earth 22 Superman.

  10. #40
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Dude, this isn't about people not agreeing with your opinion. It's never actually been about that. If you look back in this very thread you'll see that the bulk of people add somewhere in their post "I understand your frustration, but..." because we're not freakin animals. We get that not everyone has to like the same thing. Superdad fans are even sympathizing with you when they say stuff like "I know how I felt when they took away my Superman, but..." So this isn't some lone warrior on his Obi Wan Kenobi high ground, because a lot of the people here have been where you are. Where the irritation lays is why your need to make whole threads dedicated to rhetoric and hyperbole. It's the almost spam-like quality that you're giving it.

    No one is asking you to like the current direction. Hell mah dood, you don't even have to respect it. But if you want your "unfiltered opinions" to taken seriously by the people around you then making threads where the soul goal is to sh!t on a character or direction under the guise of "news." I mean come on, "SuperSons Cancelled! Jon Experiment Showing Signs of Failing! New52 Superman to the Rescue?" That's basically click bait.
    Bravo,Superlad. I had a very similar but FAR less nice response all typed up and ready to post this morning,but now I don't have to because you said everything i was going to say far more eloquently than I was going to. So thank you.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The argument will all be moot in the end. New 52 Superman is fine. He's currently in print as we speak. He's just a little older now and has fractured memories.

    Not that it'll help the fanbase any, though. Once all is revealed those who reviled everything the New 52 version stands for will be mad when they both turn out to be the same guy because even with the new status quo they won't accept Superman having the New 52 experiences as canon too, so the base will still be fractured.
    I'd actually want to see them write this. but it would need to be a proper arc and not just some throw away line about how they are one person whose time line diverged or whatever so that's why N52 Superman is gone.

    I get complaining but the OP takes it to another lever with their hate, which he's more than welcome to but to purposefully misinform because of a bias might just be taking things too far.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    That was Kingdom Come/Earth 22 Superman.
    I see this in DC WIKI... Superman Earth Two.. This information is about the original Superman... The Kingdom Come Superman was not married with Lois... and this man, the original character lost his Lois..

    I am surprised for see this open, even more surprising was the title, something impossible... This topic was not created with good intentions...
    Last edited by adrikito; 08-05-2016 at 06:32 AM.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The argument will all be moot in the end. New 52 Superman is fine. He's currently in print as we speak. He's just a little older now and has fractured memories.

    Not that it'll help the fanbase any, though. Once all is revealed those who reviled everything the New 52 version stands for will be mad when they both turn out to be the same guy because even with the new status quo they won't accept Superman having the New 52 experiences as canon too, so the base will still be fractured.
    .... I see this superdad in convergence, and convergence superman(John born here)...Unfortunately, Is pre-flashpoint Superman.. and anyone else.

    N52 Superman continue in Clark Kent.. But in the end... this does not matter at all.. They have replaced him..just listening to people, you can know this... This Image of the man with many images of superman, in all images appear superdad..

    SuperCrab the best option is to FORGET SUPERMAN.... Go to other comics without this character and ignore this... as we ignore comics that do not interest us...

    I'm equal or more disappointed than you, I've given many opportunities to this character, big mistake.. This is my reward...He and lost my superman.. the opportunities have ended..
    Last edited by adrikito; 08-05-2016 at 07:39 AM.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    .... I see this superdad in convergence, and convergence superman(John born here)...Unfortunately, Is pre-flashpoint Superman.. and anyone else.

    N52 Superman continue in Clark Kent.. But in the end... this does not matter at all.. They have replaced him..just listening to people, you can know this... This Image of the man with many images of superman, in all images appear superdad..

    SuperCrab the best option is to FORGET SUPERMAN.... Go to other comics without this character and ignore this... as we ignore comics that do not interest us...

    I'm equal or more disappointed than you, I've given many opportunities to this character, big mistake.. and this is my reward... lost my superman.. the opportunities have ended..
    Don't tell him that, he has every right to love Superman, He's speaking for Nuperman cause he can't speak for himself. I cannot understand WHY people are against New 52 Superman for following the company line by doing something different ans getting hated and killed for it, it's like he died for Barry's sin, Barry started the Flashpoint yet he's alive and well and got off Scott Free. That doesn't seem fair to me.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The argument will all be moot in the end. New 52 Superman is fine. He's currently in print as we speak. He's just a little older now and has fractured memories.

    Not that it'll help the fanbase any, though. Once all is revealed those who reviled everything the New 52 version stands for will be mad when they both turn out to be the same guy because even with the new status quo they won't accept Superman having the New 52 experiences as canon too, so the base will still be fractured.
    If what you say is true. His status quo, even if he is N52SM, will shut up almost the entire fanbase. Will there be stragglers who still won't like it? Sure. But they won't be that big of an overall portion. It won't matter if the origin is still the written Morrison/Morales one, the family dynamic will shut up most of it, AFAIK.

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