Nonfiction Books on Comics-- Any Bestsellers?

[ouroboros]

Has anyone ever noticed a book about comics, or related topics like superheroes, making it to any bestseller list, if only briefly?

I suspect they never go beyond niche status.

[GreenLanternRanger]

I think Grant Morrison's Supergods did pretty good when it came out.

[codystarbuck]

Sales aren't even remotely close enough for most to hit the bestseller lists. Near as I can determine, Morrison did not hit the NYT list. Even Sean Howe's Marvel the Untold Story and David Hadju's The 10-Cent Plague didn't make it and they had far more mainstream attention.

[Kirby101]

I don't think most comic book readers care about nonfiction books on comics.

[codystarbuck]

I don't think most comic book readers care about nonfiction books on comics.

And vice-versa.

I worked for B&N for 20 years and I think I bought most of our comic book reference books and related materials. We probably sold far more of them after they were remaindered and ended up in our Bargain section. Of course, for the coffee table books, like the Les Daniels histories, price was a big reason.

It's a niche area of a niche medium.

[pearlofthepacific]

I care about them and read them when I can find them and afford them, but they are pretty hard to get right. I think a survey or haphazard collection of essays can date very fast, and without a Big Idea to hold it together, there is nothing to justify the price. I want a book that will not only give me a few bits of information on comics that are old by the time the book is printed and bound; I want a book that will change the way I look at every comic I encounter from the day I start reading it.

[Kirby101]

I care about them and read them when I can find them and afford them, but they are pretty hard to get right. I think a survey or haphazard collection of essays can date very fast, and without a Big Idea to hold it together, there is nothing to justify the price. I want a book that will not only give me a few bits of information on comics that are old by the time the book is printed and bound; I want a book that will change the way I look at every comic I encounter from the day I start reading it.

too bad there isn't a medium that is instantly updatable and completely interactive.

[ouroboros]

Sales aren't even remotely close enough for most to hit the bestseller lists. Near as I can determine, Morrison did not hit the NYT list. Even Sean Howe's Marvel the Untold Story and David Hadju's The 10-Cent Plague didn't make it and they had far more mainstream attention.

That's pretty much what I thought. I might discount the NY Times list, because I recall reading somewhere that it's something of a rigged game-- but now I can't recall which one was more reputable: PW or USA Today.

[ouroboros]

I care about them and read them when I can find them and afford them, but they are pretty hard to get right. I think a survey or haphazard collection of essays can date very fast, and without a Big Idea to hold it together, there is nothing to justify the price. I want a book that will not only give me a few bits of information on comics that are old by the time the book is printed and bound; I want a book that will change the way I look at every comic I encounter from the day I start reading it.

Well, the book I'm working on is conceived as a "Big Idea" type, whether or not any fans would agree with that Idea or not. The members of my critique-group have said, based on the sections they've heard, that it could have General Interest, but I think that's a long shot if no previous book on comics has tapped that market. Thus, assuming some niche-market publisher might accept it-- someone like McFarland, for example-- that would probably be my only firm option.

[codystarbuck]

That's pretty much what I thought. I might discount the NY Times list, because I recall reading somewhere that it's something of a rigged game-- but now I can't recall which one was more reputable: PW or USA Today.

None of them. NYT is based on selected reporting from around the country, with sales at bookshops in Chicago's O'Hare Airport a major factor. They tend to skew heavily based on input from the coasts. However, most of the other bestseller lists tend to mirror it. B&N went off the NYT list and switched to their own, years ago, when they started blanket discounting them. We always had suspicious titles on there that looked more like co-op advertising than actual sales. NYT is also skewed by orders, before sales ever occur. it's also been manipulated by people like Trump, Limbaugh and Regnery press (right-wing publisher of the Swift Boat attack boo, when John Kerry ran, in 2004). In all of those cases, copies were bought up in bulk to get the book on the bestseller list (by the subjects or their agents) then advertised as an NYT best seller. Trump did it personally, with The Art of the Deal (which he didn't write). Regnery is the worst. They sell them to conservative groups who use them at fundraisers and report those as sales, while holding back on bookstore orders to build demand. When they pulled this stunt in 2004, they claimed "liberal" bookstores, like B&N, refused to sell it. Founder and chief shareholder Len Riggio fired back in the NYT telling them we'd be glad to sell the books if they shipped us the books we had already ordered. Regnery shut up pretty quickly, as B&N (as I recall) also produced proof of the quantities we had ordered (as a company).

Meanwhile, biggest comic-related bestsellers: Calvin & Hobbes. Those things always hit the bestseller lists. Far Side, too. Watchmen did, when the movie was coming out.

[codystarbuck]

Will Jacobs and Gerard Jones original Comic Book Heroes was pretty darn good. It was a history of comics from the Silver Age to the early 80s (it came out in 85), from a fan perspective, and covered a lot of great material, even on the fringes, like the Goodwin & Simonson Manhunter and the Moench/Gulacy Master of Kung Fu, as well as the old standbys. They put out an updated edition in the 90s, with more material; but, the tone was a lot more tabloidy, with more insider stuff that often felt like cheap fanzine gossip. There was one bit about speculation about Chris Claremont's sexuality, since he married late in life and was close to his mother. That was pure trash and had no bearing on anything, whether true or not. Totally ruined the thing, for me.

Mike Benton had a nice series of books on comic history, covering several periods and genres within. Ron Goulart did several histories of the Golden and Silver Ages, though he was definitely more of a GA fan. Jeff Rovin had his Encyclopedia of Super Heroes (plus one for Super- Villains, monsters, robots& and spaceships, and adventure heroes) and they are decent starter guides, for characters. They had some incorrect information, here and there, as well as some editorializing. Maurice Horn edited an excellent and massive World Encyclopedia of Comics. The first edition came out in the early 70s and covered tons of stuff, from around the globe. It was updated in the late 90s, though some of the updates featured inaccurate information and some skewed viewpoints. One striking element was Horn's entry about Druillet, the French sci-fi artist, was basically just a hatchet job that said he was over-rated. it was the only entry like that I read in the book. It sounded like there was something personal, there (Horn is French and one of the major figures in French comic fandom).

There were a few great video histories which are, sadly, unavailable on dvd. The was Masters of the Comic Book Art, hosted by Harlan Ellison, which featured interviews and essays with and from Dave Sim, Art Spiegelman, Frank Miller, Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman, Neal Adams, Bernie Wrightson, Moebius, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko (reading an essay; but, not appearing on camera). It was hurt by the fact that no art was cleared by Marvel, with Ditko being represented by Mr A and the Question, while quoting Ayn Rand.

Another was History of the Comics, the 9th Art. It was done in Europe (it appears Spain; but may have been with Spanish assistance), and consisted of 4 volumes, tracing comics from the earliest newspaper comics to the modern era, with an ending feature on 10 up and coming artists. of the 10, the only 2 Americans were Matt Wagner and Geoff Darrow. It featured a ton of material and had interviews with Osamu Tezuka, Jack kirby, Harvey Kurtzman, Will Eisner, Howard Chaykin, Alan Moore, Goseki Kojima, Moebius, Liberatore, Corben, Burne Hogarth, Lee Falk, Charles Schulz, Gilbert Shelton, and many others. Volume 3 featured a lot of material from the glory days of Heavy Metal and volume 4 had a long segment on manga.

There is one that is available on dvd: Comic Book Confidential, which mostly features Underground comic creators, with them reading some of their material. They talk to a bunch of people, including the Hernandez Brothers, Gilbert Shelton, the Air Pirates crew, Kurtzman and Kirby and some others. It's a bit different, to be sure.

[ouroboros]

Will Jacobs and Gerard Jones original Comic Book Heroes was pretty darn good. It was a history of comics from the Silver Age to the early 80s (it came out in 85), from a fan perspective, and covered a lot of great material, even on the fringes, like the Goodwin & Simonson Manhunter and the Moench/Gulacy Master of Kung Fu, as well as the old standbys. They put out an updated edition in the 90s, with more material; but, the tone was a lot more tabloidy, with more insider stuff that often felt like cheap fanzine gossip. There was one bit about speculation about Chris Claremont's sexuality, since he married late in life and was close to his mother. That was pure trash and had no bearing on anything, whether true or not. Totally ruined the thing, for me.

Mike Benton had a nice series of books on comic history, covering several periods and genres within. Ron Goulart did several histories of the Golden and Silver Ages, though he was definitely more of a GA fan. Jeff Rovin had his Encyclopedia of Super Heroes (plus one for Super- Villains, monsters, robots& and spaceships, and adventure heroes) and they are decent starter guides, for characters. They had some incorrect information, here and there, as well as some editorializing. Maurice Horn edited an excellent and massive World Encyclopedia of Comics. The first edition came out in the early 70s and covered tons of stuff, from around the globe. It was updated in the late 90s, though some of the updates featured inaccurate information and some skewed viewpoints. One striking element was Horn's entry about Druillet, the French sci-fi artist, was basically just a hatchet job that said he was over-rated. it was the only entry like that I read in the book. It sounded like there was something personal, there (Horn is French and one of the major figures in French comic fandom).

There were a few great video histories which are, sadly, unavailable on dvd. The was Masters of the Comic Book Art, hosted by Harlan Ellison, which featured interviews and essays with and from Dave Sim, Art Spiegelman, Frank Miller, Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman, Neal Adams, Bernie Wrightson, Moebius, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko (reading an essay; but, not appearing on camera). It was hurt by the fact that no art was cleared by Marvel, with Ditko being represented by Mr A and the Question, while quoting Ayn Rand.

Another was History of the Comics, the 9th Art. It was done in Europe (it appears Spain; but may have been with Spanish assistance), and consisted of 4 volumes, tracing comics from the earliest newspaper comics to the modern era, with an ending feature on 10 up and coming artists. of the 10, the only 2 Americans were Matt Wagner and Geoff Darrow. It featured a ton of material and had interviews with Osamu Tezuka, Jack kirby, Harvey Kurtzman, Will Eisner, Howard Chaykin, Alan Moore, Goseki Kojima, Moebius, Liberatore, Corben, Burne Hogarth, Lee Falk, Charles Schulz, Gilbert Shelton, and many others. Volume 3 featured a lot of material from the glory days of Heavy Metal and volume 4 had a long segment on manga.

There is one that is available on dvd: Comic Book Confidential, which mostly features Underground comic creators, with them reading some of their material. They talk to a bunch of people, including the Hernandez Brothers, Gilbert Shelton, the Air Pirates crew, Kurtzman and Kirby and some others. It's a bit different, to be sure.

Yeah, I've looked at all of these at one time or another. I definitely agree that the first edition of the Horn Encyclopedia had some odd verdicts. I'm not entirely opposed to having some personal opinions in an encyclopedia-like format; in some ways it's more honest to state opinions as such up front, instead of doing so through the pretense of studied objectivity. But akin to your note about Chris Claremont is the Horn write-up on Roy Thomas, in which the author saw fit to mention that he was weak with female characters, as if that was the most important aspect of his comics contribution.

[codystarbuck]

Yeah, I've looked at all of these at one time or another. I definitely agree that the first edition of the Horn Encyclopedia had some odd verdicts. I'm not entirely opposed to having some personal opinions in an encyclopedia-like format; in some ways it's more honest to state opinions as such up front, instead of doing so through the pretense of studied objectivity. But akin to your note about Chris Claremont is the Horn write-up on Roy Thomas, in which the author saw fit to mention that he was weak with female characters, as if that was the most important aspect of his comics contribution.

Thomas, somewhere, pointed out some inaccuracies in Horn's book. The original 70s edition had a large group of contributors that included Jerry Bails and Dennis Gifford (a UK comics expert), with most of the American entries handled by American contributors. The revised 90s edition seemed to be all Horn. In a couple of entries there, he had plot synopses that were way off base. I suspect he inferred a lot and didn't actually read the work in question, or read a poor translation.